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LogisticsBranch
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Tonyrey, ho hum.The inability of science to explain itself is proof that it cannot explain reality!
Learn something from the National Institute of Health!
"NIH Director Dr. Elias Zerhouni recently spoke to a gathering of young researchers about the importance of good scientific research for the future of our world. We are entering a new era of medicine, noted Dr. Zerhouni, one that combines an appreciation of biological complexity with the fearless search for scientific knowledge.
"Opportunities Abound
"There has never been a more exciting era in science, and the opportunities are enormous. Medicine is moving from the curative model of the last 5,000 years, in which symptoms are obvious, loss of function is clear, and intervention too late. We are now moving toward a more preemptive model, one that integrates quantitative techniques for greater understanding of the complexity of biological systems.
"The one thing that has driven my own scientific life is marrying quantitative information with biological systems—creating measurable parameters that give insight into biology. **Science is not a game of abstract insight divorced from the physical realities of measurement, nor is it just technologies in search of solutions. You cannot do science with bad technologies and bad methodologies.
**
"Today, we realize there is much greater biological complexity than anybody thought possible 30 years ago. Back then, for example, researchers at the National Cancer Institute (NCI) looked for the magic bullet that would hit the one, two, or three molecular targets of cancer and cure it. That is not happening because of the complexity we’ve uncovered.
“The goal now is to transform health and medicine through discovery.”
nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/magazine/issues/fall07/articles/fall07pg2-3.html
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Mystic_Banana
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:tsktsk:
Trying a different diversionary tactic (as in insults) isn’t making you any less of a hypocrite, you know!
bbc.co.uk/news/health-12582292
steadyhealth.com/articles/Depression_On_The_Rise__One_In_Ten_Americans_On_Antidepressants_a2155.html
clinical-depression.co.uk/dlp/depression-information/major-depression-facts/
independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/suicide-and-depression-on-rise-across-uk-2137052.html
Any time you fancy stopping throwing around self-righteous insults and face up to the facts your arguments aren’t just defeated but even apparently self defeating? Your expectation of me to provide statistics for depression millenia ago was too puerile to really warrant a response, in the context of the discussion, but, just to spell it out for you again, I didn’t really need to provide evidence of a rise in depression, when you supplied it yourself did I? Hmmmm? And you were offering the article as evidence of rising depression anyway, you fool!
Anyway, above are a wad of things I found with a ripe and easy google search…
You seem very good at accusing other people of view points they don’t hold, whilst failing to justify your own weak arguments. Accuse me of trolling??? Look at the unjustied, insulting rubbish you’re coming out with! You’re guilty of everything you accuse everyone else of…
Science isn’t scientism… sorry to break it to you, but believing the supernatural might exist and believing science sometimes works aren’t neccesarily mutually exclusive. If you ever care to develop an open mind you may realise that*…
By the way, are you sure you understood the question when you filled in the religion box?
*actually, you need nature in order to have something super to nature, surely?
Ah - OK. You really don’t have an intelligent answer!
Trying a different diversionary tactic (as in insults) isn’t making you any less of a hypocrite, you know!
You were talking about an asteroid heading for Earth being a modern myth, but I’m sure I remember a real news story about an asteroid heading for Earth, quite a few years ago, due in, ooh 2020 I think? Anyone remember that?
guardian.co.uk/news/2002/nov/27/uknewsThat’s the second time you refused point-blank to answer a question. Are you trolling?
Rather than depression rising, did it not occur to you that other illnesses might be falling? That’s kind of an obvious point for anyone who thinks with their brain, but not apparently for those who instead use an invisible, undetectable, inexplicable thinking substance.
Incidentally, it also doesn’t seem to have occurred to your invisible, undetectable, inexplicable thinking substance that a lot of your fellow Catholics are doctors in your detested “knowledgeable science industry”
Other than that, I don’t really want to talk to an abject cynic who advocates barbarism. If you want me to continue, you’ll need to show that you are not a trolling dilettante and have a genuine interest in the mind, mental health and the thread topic. Up to you.
bbc.co.uk/news/health-12582292
steadyhealth.com/articles/Depression_On_The_Rise__One_In_Ten_Americans_On_Antidepressants_a2155.html
clinical-depression.co.uk/dlp/depression-information/major-depression-facts/
independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/suicide-and-depression-on-rise-across-uk-2137052.html
Any time you fancy stopping throwing around self-righteous insults and face up to the facts your arguments aren’t just defeated but even apparently self defeating? Your expectation of me to provide statistics for depression millenia ago was too puerile to really warrant a response, in the context of the discussion, but, just to spell it out for you again, I didn’t really need to provide evidence of a rise in depression, when you supplied it yourself did I? Hmmmm? And you were offering the article as evidence of rising depression anyway, you fool!
Anyway, above are a wad of things I found with a ripe and easy google search…
You seem very good at accusing other people of view points they don’t hold, whilst failing to justify your own weak arguments. Accuse me of trolling??? Look at the unjustied, insulting rubbish you’re coming out with! You’re guilty of everything you accuse everyone else of…
Science isn’t scientism… sorry to break it to you, but believing the supernatural might exist and believing science sometimes works aren’t neccesarily mutually exclusive. If you ever care to develop an open mind you may realise that*…
By the way, are you sure you understood the question when you filled in the religion box?
*actually, you need nature in order to have something super to nature, surely?
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LogisticsBranch
Guest
Getting back to the topic, “Can science REALLY explain Reality?”
HPV: Common Infection. Common Reality. From the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention: cdc.gov/std/Hpv/common/default.htm
HPV: Common Infection. Common Reality. From the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention: cdc.gov/std/Hpv/common/default.htm
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atheistgirl
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My youngest is yet to have her shots but the older ones all have.
(I’m assuming the Catholic Church would reject out of hand the health advice regarding condom use?)
Sarah x
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LogisticsBranch
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Did your daughter get a HIV test and a Pap? ‘There is no treatment for HPV (a virus).’My youngest is yet to have her shots but the older ones all have.
(I’m assuming the Catholic Church would reject out of hand the health advice regarding condom use?)
Sarah x
I doubt a woman that has cervical cancer is interested in sex. I honestly don’t think it wise to encourage sex if that is the case.
I do think there are medical cases where the church does allow condoms. The Catholic Church supports the medical community at large. Basically, I get a pap once a year by a female doctor because I’m a woman.
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atheistgirl
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They’re not sexually active yet and we know they are not HIV positive.
The shots wont do anything if you are already infected, but do protect against getting it.Who said anything about cervical cancer? I was refering to the health advice regarding HPV.I doubt a woman that has cervical cancer is interested in sex. I honestly don’t think it wise to encourage sex if that is the case.
That’s interesting. I thought they were banned in all cases. I remember some controversy over comments the Pope made to a journalist on his plane, which the Vatican said were taken out of context - something about someone using a condom could be a sign of caring, which the Holy Spirit could then work on, to rightly order this persons feelings, meaning I suppose ultimately they would reject condoms.
Erm, okBasically, I get a pap once a year by a female doctor because I’m a woman.
Sarah x
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LogisticsBranch
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You don’t have to be sexually active to get HIV. I don’t think you explored all the resources within the link I earlier provided.
“Doctors can treat the cell changes that HPV may cause; they do not treat HPV
(a virus).” Please provide for me the drug name of the injection that will be administered to your children.
HPV Counseling Messages.
Dear, I don’t have the time to argue with you. If you can’t give me the source to support your comment then I will have to toss it in the recycle bin.
Erm, ok
You obviously didn’t read “HPV Counseling Messages” that is on the link I provided for you. Explore and no need to shrug Sarah x.Sarah x
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tonyrey
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Sair
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Surely the answer to this question - whoever it came from - would depend upon the definition of what a ‘spiritual being’ actually is? From what I can tell, spiritual beings seem to be defined largely by what they are not - that is, anything recognisable to empirical investigation or subject to natural regularities. It is asserted that they can think and act, but no explanation of how they might do so - in the absence of any of the now-familiar physical structures and forces that produce thought and action - has ever been forthcoming from anyone making this assertion.
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inocente
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I don’t know what you mean by spiritual beings.
That’s the third post in a row where you’ve asked me a one-liner question without giving anything in return. How long will this interrogation last?
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atheistgirl
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Really?
I am totally appraized of all the risk factors involved and I’m well aware of this.
Don’t.
Dear.
I don’t need any medical advice from you.
And I most certainly don’t need any advice from you on ensuring the health of my family.
We retain highly paid experts for that
The Popes comments on the use of condoms:
bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11804398
As for the rest of your health and medical advice:
Sarah x
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tonyrey
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Your response has brought it to a satisfactory conclusion!
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tonyrey
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John 4:24
Spiritual beings are defined by their creative power, insight, conscience, free will and capacity for love.
The human mind, let alone spirit, is not recognisable to empirical investigation or subject to natural regularities.
It is an assumption that physical structures and forces produce thought and action. If that the case we would be biological machines incapable of choosing who to believe, what to choose or how to act…
Human thoughts and actions in this world are **related **to physical structures and forces.
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Mystic_Banana
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Hmmmmm. Knew there was something Innocente was accusing “supernaturalists” of which he himself pretty much practices himself - he’s now apparently refusing to attempt to justify his argument with me because I was nearly as insulting as he was… anyone else care to continue arguing neuroscience/psychology is proven to explain human consciousness in it’s entiriety?These are very basic questions which supernaturalists never, ever answer - they always change the subject or else just “forget” to respond to the post.
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inocente
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I’m pleased you’re happy with the results of your inquisition. Before concluding though, by spiritual beings do you mean people or supernatural creatures?
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inocente
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When you linked an article about the rise in anti-depressants being prescribed for urinary incontinence and PMS claiming it showed a rise in depression, I realized I don’t have the time. Then when you insinuated you get to decide who accepts Christ, I decided to walk away.Hmmmmm. Knew there was something Innocente was accusing “supernaturalists” of which he himself pretty much practices himself - he’s now apparently refusing to attempt to justify his argument with me because I was nearly as insulting as he was… anyone else care to continue arguing neuroscience/psychology is proven to explain human consciousness in it’s entiriety?
The discussion was getting very heated, we’re obviously never going to agree and I’m not interested in playing to an audience to score debating points.
Wishes in all your endeavors. Goodbye.
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Sair
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That is just an assertion, since evidently physical beings can be defined by the same things.
Then all the empirical investigation into the workings of the human mind - not to mention the fact that it responds to physical stimuli - are all nonsense and a waste of time?
And why would it matter if we were? We would still be what we are, regardless of the source of our abilities.
How can they be so if they are nonphysical? You repeatedly assert that there is a relationship between natural and supernatural entities, yet cannot even offer a suggestion as to how this could be the case…
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AlanFromWichita
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How does an electron “know” whether it’s being watched – it apparently does because the double slit experiment in quantum physics tells us their properties change based on whether they are being observed. They can be everywhere at the same time and at any given time all electrons in the world are actually only one, or they could be many.
The relationship is that they obviously operate in dimensions orthogonal to the ones for which our senses, training, and experience have shown because it makes no human sense. Physicists tell us there are at least seven dimensions that are in effect that we can’t even perceive.
That is how I explain “supernatural,” is a process that operates in dimensions we don’t have any way of directly measuring.
Of course as time goes on, “supernatural” gets investigated and gradually becomes “natural,” and new mysteries fall into place. It is silly to think there is an end of knowledge we can reach beyond which the universe has fully revealed itself to humankind. Whether there are actually dimensions that are impossible to discover and detect, because they are spirit-only, will always be an unanswered question because if we don’t know something is it because we just haven’t learned it yet, or is it that it is out of our grasp and is impossible for us to learn.
If we were made in the image of God maybe this is a continuous process. Maybe as we collectively learn more as a population, we automatically are programmed to continue to strive to understand more and more, and the universe will always have complexity beyond anything yet measured or imagined so it can ever fill that need. As our collective “body” gets more intelligent we have greater powers – at times powers that if we had seen a few years sooner would have thought of as divine, or at least spooky.
Alan
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inocente
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Ah, I see now that when you asked me about spiritual beings it was one of those times when you had a private definition and my ability as a mind reader was found wanting.
The list of qualities is rather dry for me, with love last, and even then it is limited to only a capacity for love. Does that mean empathy, forgiveness and trust are only rated enough to lump them in with “capacity for love”? And what happened to humility, courage, justice et al, how do you class them if they’re not spiritual?
Who gets to decide on this list, and what does it have to do with Christ or the thread?
Empirical means based on what is experienced or seen rather than on theory, so are you saying that we can’t use our own experiences to investigate our mind? How would we ever know ourselves through theory alone?
I’d suggest that anyone who insists on thinking of us as machines, against all evidence and common sense, will do so whether they believe the machine is natural or supernatural. They’re half-way there if they agree with Descartes rather than scripture that we are a ghost in a machine.
Methinks you’re playing with words by emphasizing related in place of produced.
You can’t have one without the other - the turning of a windmill is produced by the wind and the speed at which it turns is related to the power of the wind. No wind, no turning. No physical, no human mind.
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