Can she be saved?

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bpbasilphx said:
What does God’s word say in 2 Thess 2?

10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
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This is a very good quote!

Throughout the history of Christianity living in error, however much we can see only the objective sin, rather than the heart, has been a deadly sign for a soul.

God never leads a person out of the Church, to lead a person out of the Church is to lead a person out of the Faith – That Faith, without which there is no salvation.
 
No. She must return to the Catholic Church to be saved.

Extraordinary Magisterium-

“There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)

“With Faith urging us we are forced to believe and to hold the one, holy, Catholic Church and that, apostolic, and we firmly believe and simply confess this Church** outside of which there is no salvation nor remission of sin**… Furthermore, we declare, say, define, and proclaim to every human creature that they by absolute necessity for salvation are entirely subject to the Roman Pontiff.”
(Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, Nov. 18, 1302)

“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)
 
***Vatican II document Lumen Gentium: ***"‘Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: The one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it’
 
Priscilla_Ann said:
Scripture tells us that **we are saved by grace through faith **(Ephesians 2:8-9); there is no mention of “graces that come through the Sacraments.” In fact, I don’t find “graces” in scripture at all; it is simply grace, which means “God’s unmerited favor”.
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You have to cooperate with his grace through actions. Paul teaches that it’s through grace alone and not faith alone that we’re saved. The Sacraments ARE in the Bible Lets look.
  1. Baptism: Jesus’ baptism in the Jourdain river, the apostles baptizing people with water and spirit through out the acts of the apostles.
  2. Communion, Jesus ORDERED us to eat his body and blood or we have no life in us. Paul confirms this in 1st Corinthians 10 and 11 when he says that when someone does not discern the body of Christ, they are guilty of the Crucifixion.
  3. Confession: Jesus said to the apostles that what they bind on earth will be bound in heaven and what they loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. Here Jesus is talking about sins. Who has the power to forgive? Only Jesus therefore it’s Jesus forgiving in the sacrament of confession through the priest.
  4. Confirmation is mentioned a few times which is the second part to baptism, where the apostles laid their hands on the people to have them receive the Holy Spirit.
  5. Marriage. Mark 10 Jesus says that Marriage is from the vows until death.
  6. Orders: 1st Timothy 4:14, St. Paul says, “Neglect not the grace that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with imposition of hands of the priesthood.” This text shows that when St. Paul ordained Timothy, the presbyters also laid their hands upon him, even as now the presbyters who assist at ordination lay their hands on the candidate. St. Paul here exhorts Timothy to teach and command, to be an example to all. To neglect this would be to neglect the grace which is in him given by God. This grace therefore enables him to teach and command, to discharge his office rightly. The grace then is not a charismatic gift, but a gift of the Holy Spirit for the rightful discharge of official duties.
  7. Last Rites James 5:14-15 Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. Elders in greek is presbyteros which has been translated to English as Priest.
 
prettylarge said:
Questions like this make me happy I don’t go to church anymore. I feel like everyone on this board is missing the point. Be a good person…treat others the way you want to be treated. Everything else is just details in my opinion.

Do you think the devil led her to Martin Luther? I don’t know. I think questions like this are silly. Did this cause her to treat others in a worse way?..if not, it is a non issue. Even if she stopped believing in God altogether, if it didn’t make her a worse person, it is a non issue. I realize that some of you believe that Catholicism is the only way to salvation, but what if you are wrong? What if its hinduism or buddhism or islam that is the right way to salvation? Looks like we are going to hell then I guess. I think it is arrogant to think that Catholicism is a better way to salvation than any other faith that promotes similar morals (basically every other major religion).
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Wow. Thank you. Open thinking like this is so rare here.
 
kage_ar said:
Yes. Either the devil led them out or Jesus is a liar.

My money is on Jesus.
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It doesn’t mean that Jesus was a liar…did you ever stop to think that maybe some things in the Gospels were recorded wrong…or that perhaps Christianity/any religion is incorrect? Of course not. Because we were brought up that way. It has to be right because our parents/teachers/fellow parishioners taught us that it is. The other religions, though, with their prophets/teachers/holy books…they’re all wrong. We were sure lucky to have born into the only right religion!
 
kage_ar said:
Yes. Either the devil led them out or Jesus is a liar.

My money is on Jesus.
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This is such a stupid view. There are many denominations of Christianity and I don’t think that following them makes “Jesus a liar.” Some of the stuff I hear on this board is ridiculous. If anything, certain sects of Protestantism are more true to the Bible than Catholicism. And the whole “Peter is the rock” and how what the pope says goes has a pretty weak argument behind it. I guess everyone that isn’t a Catholic think Jesus is a liar and are following the devil :rolleyes:
 
alongexpected said:
It doesn’t mean that Jesus was a liar…did you ever stop to think that maybe some things in the Gospels were recorded wrong…or that perhaps Christianity/any religion is incorrect? Of course not. Because we were brought up that way. It has to be right because our parents/teachers/fellow parishioners taught us that it is. The other religions, though, with their prophets/teachers/holy books…they’re all wrong. We were sure lucky to have born into the only right religion!
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I was not born a Catholic.

Thank God, He led me to His Church - after many years of roaming about to and fro.

And truth is truth. Truth is not relative.

It is right because Jesus started this Church.
 
FiberZilla said:
If one leaves Roman Catholicism for evangelical christianity because she comes to believe truly in her heart through much prayer and study that Martin Luther was right, is she going to Hell?
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How much of Martin Luther has she read?
(A great many–perhaps most–Lutherans today do not believe everything that Martin Luther taught.)
Nobody knows who is going to hell or heaven except God.
 
kage_ar said:
I was not born a Catholic.

Thank God, He led me to His Church - after many years of roaming about to and fro.

And truth is truth. Truth is not relative.

It is right because Jesus started this Church.
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But you don’t KNOW it’s truth! Yes, it might be. I’m not saying it’s NOT because I don’t know that for sure. Neither does anyone know that it is.
 
alongexpected said:
But you don’t KNOW it’s truth! Yes, it might be. I’m not saying it’s NOT because I don’t know that for sure. Neither does anyone know that it is.
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Uh, this is not correct.

I -know- it is the truth. There is no denying it. I have no choice. If I hated every single thing about the Catholic Church and wanted desperately to be any other religion, I’d still have no choice.

It’s the truth. History demonstrates it. There is no other place to be, this is how reality itself is constructed by God.

And God’s work is good, so we should be happy with it here. If we are not, eternal life will not be happiness for us either. 🙂
 
alongexpected said:
But you don’t KNOW it’s truth! Yes, it might be. I’m not saying it’s NOT because I don’t know that for sure. Neither does anyone know that it is.
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That is the difference, I do know that Jesus is the truth.

One can know Truth, one can know God.

Just ask Him.
 
There are some very good Catholic answers here. I would only like to point out that Martin Luther created a new religion when he added the word “alone” to Paul’s letter to the Romans.

Martin Luther wanted it to say, “We are saved by faith alone” to justify the pain he was feeling in his life.

That right there calls into question all Protestant religions that believe we are saved by faith alone.

Catholics believe it is only through grace alone that we are saved. We believe that faith without works is dead.

But to minimalism religion to the “Golden Rule” is sort of like telling a child that asks how does a computer work, “Well you just plug it in and push the keys.” This is not ‘how’ it works, there are many more things involved. Catholicism can be summed up with the Golden Rule, but it is not defined by it.
 
kage_ar said:
I was not born a Catholic.

Thank God, He led me to His Church - after many years of roaming about to and fro.

And truth is truth. Truth is not relative.

It is right because Jesus started this Church.
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I agree, the truth is not relative. But the evidence for the Catholic Church being the truth is not any better than any other religion being the truth.
 
prettylarge said:
I agree, the truth is not relative. But the evidence for the Catholic Church being the truth is not any better than any other religion being the truth.
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Oh that is quite not the case. We have the history of its foundation by Jesus Christ, God Himself. We have the witnesses of virtue and grace found nowhere else, the saints, their miracles, the unchanging dogmas.

Nothing else like it.
 
Shin said:
Uh, this is not correct.

I -know- it is the truth. There is no denying it. I have no choice. If I hated every single thing about the Catholic Church and wanted desperately to be any other religion, I’d still have no choice.

It’s the truth. History demonstrates it. There is no other place to be, this is how reality itself is constructed by God.

And God’s work is good, so we should be happy with it here. If we are not, eternal life will not be happiness for us either. 🙂
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This is so completely biased and wrong. Tell me how history demonstrates that the Catholic Church is the right church…and it does so so well that there is no doubt that the Catholic Church is the truth. If this were true every historian ever would be Catholic…I am pretty sure that isn’t the case.

You are delusional if you think that there is undeniable evidence that the Catholic Church is truth, because there isn’t. If there was such evidence, why so we even need faith? Do you have “faith” that gravity exists?
 
Shin said:
Uh, this is not correct.

I -know- it is the truth. There is no denying it. I have no choice. If I hated every single thing about the Catholic Church and wanted desperately to be any other religion, I’d still have no choice.

It’s the truth. History demonstrates it. There is no other place to be, this is how reality itself is constructed by God.

And God’s work is good, so we should be happy with it here. If we are not, eternal life will not be happiness for us either. 🙂
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How do you know something that cannot be proven? We can bring in a devout Jehovah’s Witness, Buddhist, or Shinto, and they’d swear up and down, like you, that they KNOW that their religion is correct. That “history demonstrates it”. It’s naive and arrogant to think that your side has all the right answers and everyone else is sad and unfortunate.
 
prettylarge said:
This is so completely biased and wrong. Tell me how history demonstrates that the Catholic Church is the right church…and it does so so well that there is no doubt that the Catholic Church is the truth. If this were true every historian ever would be Catholic…I am pretty sure that isn’t the case.

You are delusional if you think that there is undeniable evidence that the Catholic Church is truth, because there isn’t. If there was such evidence, why so we even need faith? Do you have “faith” that gravity exists?
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Faith is not a sortof half-hearted ‘belief’ that God exists outside of evidence. It is belief that adheres to what He has revealed fully in one’s life.

Anyone can read history and see that the Catholic Church is the true religion revealed by God, founded by God. The evidence is there.

But just because I know His Church is the One, He founded, and that He exists, does not make me faithful to all His teachings in my life – I believe, I know they are His, but to live up to them requires interior conversion. I have to go from living for myself to living for Him.

To trust Him emotionally, through the hard times – though it is proven to me intellectually that He is good, I still have to have faith through hard times that He allows or even sends. I still have to make the interior changes of trust through all sorts of difficulties. To make the changes that I need to make in my life – to trust, to believe all that He has revealed, simply because it is He that reveals them – that is Faith.
 
Jesus gave the keys to Peter. That is fact.

The chain of succession is historic fact, my friend, it is fact:


  1. *]St. Peter (32-67)
    *]St. Linus (67-76)
    *]St. Anacletus (Cletus) (76-88)
    *]St. Clement I (88-97)
    *]St. Evaristus (97-105)
    *]St. Alexander I (105-115)
    *]St. Sixtus I (115-125) Also called Xystus I
    *]St. Telesphorus (125-136)
    *]St. Hyginus (136-140)
    *]St. Pius I (140-155)
    *]St. Anicetus (155-166)
    *]St. Soter (166-175)
    *]St. Eleutherius (175-189)
    *]St. Victor I (189-199)
    *]St. Zephyrinus (199-217)
    *]St. Callistus I (217-22) Callistus and the following three popes were opposed by St. Hippolytus, antipope (217-236)
    *]St. Urban I (222-30)
    *]St. Pontain (230-35)
    *]St. Anterus (235-36)
    *]St. Fabian (236-50)
    *]St. Cornelius (251-53) Opposed by Novatian, antipope (251)
    *]St. Lucius I (253-54)
    *]St. Stephen I (254-257)
    *]St. Sixtus II (257-258)
    *]St. Dionysius (260-268)
    *]St. Felix I (269-274)
    *]St. Eutychian (275-283)
    *]St. Caius (283-296) Also called Gaius
    *]St. Marcellinus (296-304)
    *]St. Marcellus I (308-309)
    *]St. Eusebius (309 or 310)
    *]St. Miltiades (311-14)
    *]St. Sylvester I (314-35)
    *]St. Marcus (336)
    *]St. Julius I (337-52)
    *]Liberius (352-66) Opposed by Felix II, antipope (355-365)
    *]St. Damasus I (366-83) Opposed by Ursicinus, antipope (366-367)
    *]St. Siricius (384-99)
    *]St. Anastasius I (399-401)
    *]St. Innocent I (401-17)
    *]St. Zosimus (417-18)
    *]St. Boniface I (418-22) Opposed by Eulalius, antipope (418-419)
    *]St. Celestine I (422-32)
    *]St. Sixtus III (432-40)
    *]St. Leo I (the Great) (440-61)
    *]St. Hilarius (461-68)
    *]St. Simplicius (468-83)
    *]St. Felix III (II) (483-92)
    *]St. Gelasius I (492-96)
    *]Anastasius II (496-98)

    And so on and so on, right up to this very moment in time!
 
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