Can somebody explain "Rapture" to me

[Janet_S]

Hi,
You can read my response below to Deb, but I would have to ask you the same thing.

This is not a theology that makes or break my salvation. There are so many intrepretations out there and in the bible it can be proven in several directions. Since I have not studied it I cannot make an informed decision as of yet.

Either way, Christ is coming back and I concentrate on being ready for Him and being right before Him.

Quote from Flameburns 623 “Eschatology is an area of theology fraught with speculation. It is the area with the fewest ‘essential’ doctrines from a soteriological viewpoint. One must believe in the Resurrection of the dead, some to glory, and some to condemnation; and one must believe in the literal, visible return of Jesus Christ to Earth. Everything else is pretty much up for grabs: it falls in the area of ‘non-essentials’.”

Please note: I didn’t say ‘unimportant’: all of God’s Truth is ‘important’; but not all that God has revealed touches directly upon the issue of salvation by God’s grace, and so speculation in some areas will not automatically or necessarily lead to heresy. This is what those who speak of ‘pan-tribulationalism’ or ‘pan-millennialism’ mean by their humorous crack about it all ‘panning out in the end’."

This comment is in reference to the above 2 posts. I am surprised that you both take it so lightly when a church is teaching a theological error. Both of you agree that the rapture “might” be an error, but you don’t think it is a problem that a church teaches this particular error (based on a novel interpretation of the Bible) since it is a “non-essential” issue for salvation. I am sure you are aware, though, that not all denominations agree that the rapture is “non-essential.” For some denominations, the rapture is a central doctrine.

By the way, what are the essential issues for salvation? Are they listed clearly in the Bible and do all Protestants agree on what they are?

Also, you diminish the importance of Truth when you say: “There are so many intrepretations out there and in the bible it can be proven in several directions. Since I have not studied it I cannot make an informed decision as of yet” you seem to be saying one of the following: 1) there is no Truth (because the Bible is unclear), 2) I cannot know Truth (because the Bible is unclear) or 3) I determine “my” Truth (once I make an informed decision based on my interpretation of the Bible).

The rapture is either true or false. No Christian churches taught this before the 1830’s. If it is false, no one should be teaching it from the pulpit.

 

[JoeyWarren]

I thought I would share with you a dream I had Dec 16th, 2006.

It was too real, it was in color as well.

" The Earth started to shake and I fell to the floor of where I was. I looked out the window and saw tornado like vortexes but they caused no damage. Unidentifiable forms left the vortexes and went everywhere at once. I knew at once that this was the Rapture that I had been taught as a child. I started to pray fervently and my boss did so as well for Jesus to take us. The suddenly people I was working with started to disassociate atom by atom( I told this part to someone else before, they claim I got that part from the X-men, I told them I had not seen the new X-men movie yet) And when they were total disassociated into individual atoms, the atoms went out windows and doors. And then it was all over. I was left behind. I was in shock. I started an inventory of all my co-workers. None of the very pious Christians were taken. They were left behind as I was. Then it hit me like a mack truck. Al the sinners who had no hope of salvation were the ones taken. It became like a graph in my mind. 4 groups of people were represented:

Group 1 - Very Pious - Closest thing to a saint possible.
Group 2 - Christian - but on the borderline of being a sinner.
Group 3 - Sinner - but have a success of gaining salvation.
Group 4 - Sinner - no hope for Salvation because of their mind set or some other factor.

I realized that just like in the days of Noah, the sinners were taken out and the Good or potentially good were left behind. God knew that those outside Noah’s family had no hope for Salvation.

I ran outside the building to confirm what had been revealed. I saw a couple sitting on the steps of the courthouse. They were in complete shock. I asked them if they were God Fearing Christians. They said yes. I said you have been saved from Hell for the time being. Everyone that was taken was in Hell now.

Then it donged on me, when the Scripture said that the “Dead in Christ’ actuall meant “Dead TO Christ” those that have no chance for salvation.”

I awoke that Saturday morning with a full blown Migraine. Never before had a dream had that much affect on me physically.

And that is the short version of the dream…

 

[Sixtus]

Tis easy: listen to what Mother Church is saying and if you still have any doubts, read what she says in ‘her’ scripture manual: the bible

 

[ALLFORHIM]

This comment is in reference to the above 2 posts. I am surprised that you both take it so lightly when a church is teaching a theological error. Both of you agree that the rapture “might” be an error, but you don’t think it is a problem that a church teaches this particular error (based on a novel interpretation of the Bible) since it is a “non-essential” issue for salvation. I am sure you are aware, though, that not all denominations agree that the rapture is “non-essential.” For some denominations, the rapture is a central doctrine.

Im not sure my church is teaching in error. I dont have an opinion on it because I have not studied end times enough at all biblically to have an informed opinion. I do not take someone’s word for it. I study the bible and let the Holy Spirit guide me too the truth. I have only been studying the bible for 3 years. I hvae not felt mature enough to handle a study on the end times. It is a complicated theology to understand. Im just not there yet in my spiritual walk. Im sure however I will be studying it someday unless God takes me first.

By the way, what are the essential issues for salvation? Are they listed clearly in the Bible and do all Protestants agree on what they are?

Im sure you already know what they are and it is clearly stated in the bible and I believe protestants and catholics all agree on this.

Also, you diminish the importance of Truth when you say: “There are so many intrepretations out there and in the bible it can be proven in several directions. Since I have not studied it I cannot make an informed decision as of yet” you seem to be saying one of the following: 1) there is no Truth (because the Bible is unclear), 2) I cannot know Truth (because the Bible is unclear) or 3) I determine “my” Truth (once I make an informed decision based on my interpretation of the Bible).

How could I possibly know the truth unless I read God’s Word and let the Holy Spirit guide me. I know you dont agree with this but this is what I believe to be true.No, I cannot make a decision without reading the bible because other wise I would be putting all my trust into what man says and I wont do that. We are suppose to study the bible ourselves. God gaves us a brain to use not to just blindly follow what a man or group of people say(including my church).

The rapture is either true or false. No Christian churches taught this before the 1830’s. If it is false, no one should be teaching it from the pulpit.

Your right either it is true or false. Im just not sure in either direction. Because it does not directly affect my salvation Im ok with not knowing the truth at this point in my walk with Christ. As far as not believing in it because it was taught after 1830, then the CC would have to give up some Marian theologies that were not around 2000 years ago. From what I understand from the catholics here(correct me if Im wrong–which Im sure someone will ) the CC says that certain theologies can be developed over time. Well maybe the rapture is one of those theologies What does the CC teach on this? I believe someone said they dont-- so there ya go even individual catholics can make up their own mind on this.

That is really all I have to say on this issue.

 

[Janet_S]

Here is more information about the rapture theories for those who are interested:

–History of the rapture theories. Article by Carl Olson “Waiting to be Raptured.” It describes the history of the rapture theories which began to take shape in the 1800’s.

nativityukr.org/various_files/Waiting_for_the_Rapture.html

–What’s the Catholic Church’s position on the end times?

As far as the millennium goes, we tend to agree with Augustine and, derivatively, with the amillennialists. The Catholic position has thus historically been “amillennial” (as has been the majority Christian position in general, including that of the Protestant Reformers), though Catholics do not typically use this term. The Church has rejected the premillennial position, sometimes called “millenarianism” (see the Catechism of the Catholic Church 676). In the 1940s the Holy Office judged that premillennialism “cannot safely be taught,” though the Church has not dogmatically defined this issue.

With respect to the rapture, Catholics certainly believe that the event of our gathering together to be with Christ will take place, though they do not generally use the word “rapture” to refer to this event (somewhat ironically, since the term “rapture” is derived from the text of the Latin Vulgate of 1 Thess. 4:17—“we will be caught up,” [Latin: rapiemur]).

catholic.com/library/Rapture.asp

Is belief in the rapture “essential” for salvation? Some Protestants think it is. Protestants talk about the “essential” beliefs, but there is no agreement among Protestants on what they are, and there is nowhere in the Bible where this is listed (i. e. you must believe x, y, & z to be saved). What is “essential” depends on each individual as he or she understands Scripture and as he or she has been instructed by his/her denomination or Biblical commentary. There are many “Christians” today who do not even believe in the Trinity, and this historically has been the central tenant of Christianity.

Regarding the development of doctrines–yes, this can happen. Doctrines don’t change, but our understanding of them becomes clearer over time. Yet if it is a true development it must preserve the original idea and have continuity with the original. The rapture theories are a radical change from the original doctrine, there is no continuity with the original, so it is a corruption of doctrine, not a development. The Church has already judged that premillennialism (currently the most popular among Fundamentalists and Evangelicals) cannot be safely taught. Catholics who decide to believe the rapture theories do so against the advice of the Church.

In summary, Truth does matter. But for Protestants, accepting uncertainty in what your church teaches just goes with the territory when you reject an authoritative, teaching church. You do the best you can, but you can never be sure.

That’s all I have to say on the issue as well.

 

[DRIVING_BEAR]

Sorry, I am a newbie here. I keep hearing Christians talk about this term “Rapture” and am confused. Is it like in the movies when out of nowhere Christians are teleported into heaven? Is that what Catholics believe and are waiting patiently for? Thanks!

The best place to start would be Tim Lahaye / Jerry Jenkins
non fiction book " are we living in the end times"
this is a non fiction companion book to the "left behind " series and has a good overview of the rapture and end times prophecy.

the publisher’s web site is www.tyndale.com

 

[JoeyWarren]

The best place to start would be Tim Lahaye / Jerry Jenkins
non fiction book " are we living in the end times"
this is a non fiction companion book to the "left behind " series and has a good overview of the rapture and end times prophecy.

the publisher’s web site is www.tyndale.com

THOSE BOOKS ARE FULL OF ERRORS AND LIES. A TOOL OF SATAN TO DELUDE PEOPLE INTO A FALSE SENSE OF SECURITY.

 

[masondoggy]

My worry about people who hold this view is that when persecution comes, they will loose faith. Afterall, if they were supposed to lbe spared suffering, then having to undergo persecution will be a major stumbling block to them. I hope not.

I think that’s a really good point right there and explains why this heresy can be so dangerous to souls…

 

[Fidelis]

The best place to start would be Tim Lahaye / Jerry Jenkins
non fiction book " are we living in the end times"
this is a non fiction companion book to the "left behind " series and has a good overview of the rapture and end times prophecy.

the publisher’s web site is www.tyndale.com

To the OP-

When law enforcement and banking people are taught to identify counterfeit bills, they don’t study the counterfeits first and then the real thing — they get totally familiar with the real thing first so they can immediatedly recognize a fake when they see it.

Reading the counterfeit theology of the LaHaye/Jenkins tripe before one is grounded in the facts and the truth of Catholic teaching is just plain foolish. Get totally familiar with the material I and other faithful Catholics have recommended in previous posts, and only after that take a look at the counterfeits so you can pick out the errors that will be painfully obvious.

 

[DRIVING_BEAR]

To the OP-

When law enforcement and banking people are taught to identify counterfeit bills, they don’t study the counterfeits first and then the real thing — they get totally familiar with the real thing first so they can immediatedly recognize a fake when they see it.

Reading the counterfeit theology of the LaHaye/Jenkins tripe before one is grounded in the facts and the truth of Catholic teaching is just plain foolish. Get totally familiar with the material I and other faithful Catholics have recommended in previous posts, and only after that take a look at the counterfeits so you can pick out the errors that will be painfully obvious.

I have read the CC take on this subject and determined that they are wrong on this subject .

Have you read the protestant view on the subject?

 

[JoeyWarren]

I have read the CC take on this subject and determined that they are wrong on this subject .

Thanks be to God that what you believe is not inspired by God.

Have you read the protestant view on the subject?

Yes, I grew up in a Pre-Trib Rapture church. Satan sits back and grins at all the Souls that he will gain when the Tribulation starts and nobody gets raptured out. How many christians will lose faith when the Rapture does not occur before the Tribulation does not occur.

Look at all the christians that left the faith when Mormons, JW, and the Millerites made predictions of the Rapture and that time.

Hal Lindsey’s predictions have proven false. And his next one will be proven false as well.

The Bible says that Jesus will come back ONLY once! Not Twice!

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Hi,

Has anyone here ever done an in depth precept study of the end times theology?

I personally feel unless you have you really cant believe one way or the other on either side of the issue. I have taken a first step by studying Daniel but that is certainly not enough info. to go on.

I wouldnt trust someone who wrote a book on either side of the issue. Im sure it is a GREAT bible study. God does want us to study His Word after all.

 

[MrS]

Hi,

Has anyone here ever done an in depth precept study of the end times theology?

I personally feel unless you have you really cant believe one way or the other on either side of the issue. I have taken a first step by studying Daniel but that is certainly not enough info. to go on.

I wouldnt trust someone who wrote a book on either side of the issue. Im sure it is a GREAT bible study. God does want us to study His Word after all.

First of all.,… I would agree that God is pleased when we turn to Him… either in prayer, or by reading inspired scripture.

The biggest problem occurs when we “do it ourselves”

Can you imagine just praying… not to God, not to anyone… just praying. Dumb huh?

Can you imagine just reading Scripture… no authoritative (name removed by moderator)ut … no “from-the-source” guidance… Dumb huh.

Yet so many, Catholics and not, think that the Holy Spirit is guiding them outside of the authoritative Catholic Church… and have no reasonable explanation as to why they and their peers keep coming up with opposing opinions.

There is a reason… because the Holy Spirit is NOT the one guiding our separated brethren… how ludicrous to think that God would scatter His children to different beliefs, and different faiths.

Whether it is the Rapture-concept, or the Book of Daniel… we need to use the tools God gave us… we own Him at least that much.

 

[Fidelis]

"DRIVING BEAR:

Have you read the protestant view on the subject?

Hi,Has anyone here ever done an in depth precept study of the end times theology?

I personally feel unless you have you really cant believe one way or the other on either side of the issue. I have taken a first step by studying Daniel but that is certainly not enough info. to go on.

In fact, I have studied this issue in an in in depth manner from all sides. I am a firm believer that, in matters such as this, a person has no credibilty if he has not read first-hand for himself what opposing view-points have to say. That’s why I’ve forced myself to read garbage that I otherwise would have no desire to look at – the “Da Vinci Code” and the “Left Behind” books, for example, as well as their source material. I’m currently on an evolution/cosmolgy apologetics kick, so I have Richard Dawkin’s “The God Delusion” on hold at the library so I can read his arguments first hand.

Originally Posted by DRIVING BEAR
I have read the CC take on this subject and determined that they are wrong on this subject .

Really? How would you articulate the “CC take” on this? And what sources of Catholic teaching on this have you studied to arrive at this conclusion?

 

[JoeyWarren]

Let me state for the record:

A very dire and serious warning is issued at the end of the Book of Revelations:

Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

If you mis-interpret just one verse in the Book of Revelations then you have either taken away from or added to the words of this book which is a Word of God. It’s an act of attempting to take away from God or adding to God. Very Serious. Tim Lahaye and Jerry Jenkins and others like them to hazard a guess have brought condemnation upon themselves since they have blasphemed the Holy Spirit, the guiding force behind the generation of the Book of Revelations. And we know what the Bible says about Blaspheming the Holy Spirit!

Very serious business here that is taken to lightly.

 

[deb1]

Let me state for the record:

A very dire and serious warning is issued at the end of the Book of Revelations:

If you mis-interpret just one verse in the Book of Revelations then you have either taken away from or added to the words of this book which is a Word of God. It’s an act of attempting to take away from God or adding to God. Very Serious. Tim Lahaye and Jerry Jenkins and others like them to hazard a guess have brought condemnation upon themselves since they have blasphemed the Holy Spirit, the guiding force behind the generation of the Book of Revelations. And we know what the Bible says about Blaspheming the Holy Spirit!

Very serious business here that is taken to lightly.

I don’t think that God will punish anyone for an honest mistake in misinterpreting scripture.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

I don’t think that God will punish anyone for an honest mistake in misinterpreting scripture.

Hi,

I agree:thumbsup:

 

[Alexius]

Catholics and Eastern Orthodox may outnumber Protestants in Heaven numerically, but as a proportion of the nominal membership which ultimately end up saved–it is my opinion that fewer EO’s and RC’s will be saved. Only God knows who His people are and are not, but yes: I think the Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic Churches are rusty, dull instruments so far as the proclamation of the Gospel of grace is concerned; and as a result I fear that far more EO’s and RC’s are caught up in religiosity without ever actually forming a vital relationship with the Living God. I believe both denominations have the Gospel embedded in their theology, I believe that some members of the RC denomination and the EO denominations do come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ–but I think this is something which is almost ‘accidental’ for far too many RC’s and EO’s.

Denominationalism !!! Not another Protestant innovation!

Just as many Orthodox and Catholics may rely too much on works, there are even more Protestants who rely too much on the “Sinner’s Prayer.” I “prayed the prayer” when I was very young, but I also believed I could do whatever I wanted to after that aswell. Boy was I deceived. Never again will I fall into that sort of fundamentalism. Was I “born again?” Only according to my emotions…

For some reason, once I rejected “Sola Fide,” I was relying on my own good works for salvation, or so that’s what others thought. My creditability has gone down amoung many I know because I reject their false notions. Then again, I’m not here to make them happy, but rather follow Christ in word and deed .

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

 

[MrS]

I don’t think that God will punish anyone for an honest mistake in misinterpreting scripture.

did you mean “an honest mistake in interpreting scripture” ??

there is nothing “honest” about misinterpreting

But in all “honesty”, I often think that some of the posters here chose mis-interpretation rather than concede the Catholic Truth.

.

 

[deb1]

did you mean “an honest mistake in interpreting scripture” ??

there is nothing “honest” about misinterpreting

But in all “honesty”, I often think that some of the posters here chose mis-interpretation rather than concede the Catholic Truth.

.

Yes, I meant to say interpreting.