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Blue_Horizon
Guest
OK, how so?
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Darryl1958
Guest
The ends do often justify the means. Otherwise war would always be considered evil.
It is because of the immeasurable worth of the ends that some actions that would in normal circumstances would be considered to be evil become good, heroic, and sacrificial.
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Blue_Horizon
Guest
Why not open the shutters … lets talk about misleading Germans to save Jews. Lying is but one way of misleading - there are other ways that are acceptable
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SentinelofTruth
Guest
Blue Horizon:
Also, for Roscoe Turner, I have a question. Suppose you were a doctor and you had five patients that need essential organ transplants quickly, and the only way you can get them the organs they need is to take those of another patient (the five patients all need different organs, so you could save them all by killing just this one person). What would you do in this situation?
I would tell a thousand lies to save an innocent life, and would consider myself to be doing it out of love for the jew. I am outraged that you care more about telling the truth to evil people than saving human lives. And what are these ‘other means’ of misleading? Besides, if it’s misleading, then it’s basically lying.Why not open the shutters … lets talk about misleading Germans to save Jews. Lying is but one way of misleading - there are other ways that are acceptable
Also, for Roscoe Turner, I have a question. Suppose you were a doctor and you had five patients that need essential organ transplants quickly, and the only way you can get them the organs they need is to take those of another patient (the five patients all need different organs, so you could save them all by killing just this one person). What would you do in this situation?
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Blue_Horizon
Guest
Wow, did I say that did I?
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Starrsmother
Guest
I’m only telling you what I was told–that a lie is a lie. Frankly, I’d like to think that if I had lived in Hitler’s time in Germany that I would have been brave enough to protect Jewish families. I understand being afraid–but still, I hope that I would help them. :bounce:
Anyway,you can come down from your high horse of being outraged, because I struggled with the concept too. This was the specific example that was used in the class I took, however. Another example given was that if there was an abortion clinic down the block that terminated 100 babies a day,and the physician doing the procedure absolutely refused to stop because he was getting rich doing these abortions, was it a sin to shoot the doctor and kill him. Of course that answer was absolutely “No” too–the end never justifies the means. A 3rd example was the character Robin Hood–was he a hero if he robbed from the very rich to give to the very poor? Yet again–the answer was that what he did was wrong because stealing is always a sin and the means never justify the end. The point, I think, was that we never know God’s mind or His ultimate plan and if He puts us in a situation, He doesn’t set us up to sin to get out of it. He doesn’t expect us to have to do evil to accomplish a Godly outcome as He is all good, all wise, all truth etc. Perhaps, that would be the difference in the sin of lying being a mortal or a venial sin. I don’t really know if this is true, and I don’t remember anyone asking, but let’s take the issue of lying in Germany to save a life. Perhaps–and I’m only saying PERHAPS–that would be only a venial sin when compared with the saving of a life. And again PERHAPS, the murdering of an abortion doctor would be a mortal sin because even though he killed 100 people every day, murder is still murder and the taking of any life is a mortal sin. I kind of look at this as an exercise in philosophical thinking–as very few of us will be in the position of the German who wants to save Jews–but most of us will be in the position of trying to justify an unjust act at some point–maybe more–in our life. But as human beings, we need to not try to rationalize why we would be okay if we knowingly break God’s law–as God will probably hold us responsible. I don’t know–it just kinda makes sense to me in that light—
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Starrsmother
Guest
I’m only telling you what I was told–that a lie is a lie. Frankly, I’d like to think that if I had lived in Hitler’s time in Germany that I would have been brave enough to protect Jewish families.:bounce: I understand being afraid–but still, I hope that I would help them.
Anyway,you can come down from your high horse of being outraged, because I struggled with the concept too. This was the specific example that was used in the class I took, however. Another example given was that if there was an abortion clinic down the block that terminated 100 babies a day,and the physician doing the procedure absolutely refused to stop because he was getting rich doing these abortions, was it a sin to shoot the doctor and kill him. Of course that answer was absolutely “No” too–the end never justifies the means. A 3rd example was the character Robin Hood–was he a hero if he robbed from the very rich to give to the very poor? Yet again–the answer was that what he did was wrong because stealing is always a sin and the means never justify the end. The point, I think, was that we never know God’s mind or His ultimate plan and if He puts us in a situation, He doesn’t set us up to sin to get out of it. He doesn’t expect us to have to do evil to accomplish a Godly outcome as He is all good, all wise, all truth etc. Perhaps, that would be the difference in the sin of lying being a mortal or a venial sin. I don’t really know if this is true, and I don’t remember anyone asking, but let’s take the issue of lying in Germany to save a life. Perhaps–and I’m only saying PERHAPS–that would be only a venial sin when compared with the saving of a life. And again PERHAPS, the murdering of an abortion doctor would be a mortal sin because even though he killed 100 people every day, murder is still murder and the taking of any life is a mortal sin. I kind of look at this as an exercise in philosophical thinking–as very few of us will be in the position of the German who wants to save Jews–but most of us will be in the position of trying to justify an unjust act at some point–maybe more–in our life. But as human beings, we need to not try to rationalize why we would be okay if we knowingly break God’s law–as God will probably hold us responsible. I don’t know–it just kinda makes sense to me in that light—
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Joy2day
Guest
I think the answer to the Nazi’s who come looking for the Jews would be to just not answer, or go into.hiding yourself. If you want to support the Jews, the answer is not to tell the Nazis the truth because it is a commandment. We are expected to exercise prudence If you are going to support the jews then you have to be prepared to fight he Nazis. If you cooperate with the Nazis and tell them where the Jews are, then you have to realise that you are not supporting the Jews.
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Roscoe_Turner
Guest
There are fathers and babies on both sides of a war. Both are defending their families.
Can you give an example of a just war? Or is this something fanciful that has no real relevance to our lives.
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Roscoe_Turner
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Starrsmother
Guest
I think I’d quit my job if presented seriously with something like this! LOL
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kmcarl56
Guest
If the ends never justify the means, then why send our soldiers out to war in the name of goodness for the people who are dying at the hands of an evil government? Why have countless wars been fought in the name of Christ? Why are countless wars going to be fought in the future in the name of God? What are the Muslims (Islams) doing right now to Christians (or anyone of another faith) in the name of Allah (their “God”)?
We are all soldiers of Christ and must fight against those who are evil and are actually working for Satan, not God. If we do not take a stance now (the means), then Satan will win (the end), [Of course, we know that this is not going to happen.] It is our mission to save all of those we can from evil by converting them to loving the Lord with all their hearts, souls, and minds.
I contend that God is in control of all of this (the ends and the means) at all times, and we do not have to worry ourselves with such nonsense. I believe Him and what He says to us in the Bible. I put all of my faith in Him. I know that eventually, Jesus will return, and God does win the war against Satan.
If we are truly Christians, then we all know God’s laws. The ifs, ands, and buts are also in the Bible. If it were my children and/or my husband who was being threatened to be killed, you bet your bottom dollar that I would die trying to save them, by any means possible. That’s a mother’s/wife’s natural reaction to evil threats against her family. We are all brothers and sisters in Christ. We just need to act like it…without judgement or conviction.
Do what is right and just as best we can at all times because God does have endless mercy, grace, and love for us, His children. Because Jesus died on the cross for us, He also gives us forgiveness of our sins. All we have to do is repent and ask Him, and sin no more. We are all sinners, so all we can do is the best we can do as soldiers for Christ.
May God bless and keep you in His loving arms today and until eternity.
:grouphug:
We are all soldiers of Christ and must fight against those who are evil and are actually working for Satan, not God. If we do not take a stance now (the means), then Satan will win (the end), [Of course, we know that this is not going to happen.] It is our mission to save all of those we can from evil by converting them to loving the Lord with all their hearts, souls, and minds.
I contend that God is in control of all of this (the ends and the means) at all times, and we do not have to worry ourselves with such nonsense. I believe Him and what He says to us in the Bible. I put all of my faith in Him. I know that eventually, Jesus will return, and God does win the war against Satan.
If we are truly Christians, then we all know God’s laws. The ifs, ands, and buts are also in the Bible. If it were my children and/or my husband who was being threatened to be killed, you bet your bottom dollar that I would die trying to save them, by any means possible. That’s a mother’s/wife’s natural reaction to evil threats against her family. We are all brothers and sisters in Christ. We just need to act like it…without judgement or conviction.
Do what is right and just as best we can at all times because God does have endless mercy, grace, and love for us, His children. Because Jesus died on the cross for us, He also gives us forgiveness of our sins. All we have to do is repent and ask Him, and sin no more. We are all sinners, so all we can do is the best we can do as soldiers for Christ.
May God bless and keep you in His loving arms today and until eternity.
:grouphug:
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Blue_Horizon
Guest
Some hints:
- Try and avoid “all or nothing” thinking, life isn’t like that. The only kingdom that is purely good is that of heaven. “Evil” governments are not purely evil either.
- the principle that the end does not justify the means is a fairly basic Catholic moral teaching.
- Innocent people dying is allowed by God and probably wills it to be so on occassion as well.
- death of the body is not ther worst form of death. Therefore it is not incompatible with goodness. Christians believe in an afterlife.
- Yes countless wars have been fought in the name of Christ. Does that mean Christ agreed with the deluded “christian” generals? Was it Gandhi who said “there is just enough religion for people to hate one another…but not enough to love.”
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underacloud
Guest
Roscoe,
Read the old testament. Full of wars, and many directly sanctioned by God for the Israelites to fight.
Here is one quote from Nehemiah directly advocating self defense.
Nehemiah 4: 13
Therefore I stationed some of the people behind the lowest points of the wall at the exposed places, posting them by families, with their swords, spears and bows. 14 After I looked things over, I stood up and said to the nobles, the officials and the rest of the people, “Don’t be afraid of them. Remember the Lord, who is great and awesome, and fight for your families, your sons and your daughters, your wives and your homes.”
The bible teaches that it is acceptable to fight for our families, sons and daughters, wives and homes. Please give up your unfounded notion that self defense is unbiblical.
As for just wars in modern times, I will agree that many modern wars should not have been fought. But are you going to mount an argument that the allies in WWII should not have fought the Nazis?
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Starrsmother
Guest
I was told that for a war to be just it must have a clear purpose that is, in itself, just and must be completed as fast as possible, with only the amount of force required and with as much respect for innocent civilians lives as possible. it must not, by nature, drag on forever. Thus, and this is my opinion only, if Syria is killing its innocent civilians with chemical weapons, and the USA decided to go over their and really clean their plow–removing all their leadership and setting up a completely different government that we were willing to oversee until it could actually stand on its own–that might just be a just war. Conversely, shooting a handful of missiles from our ships at Syrian targets to blow up a handful of chosen sites, knowing that dictators usually hide important sites in residential areas, schools and churches and killing everyone EXCEPT the people who used the chemical weapons initially, probably isn’t a just war.
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Roscoe_Turner
Guest
I am very familiar with the wars of the Old Testament - I don’ think they pass the smell test for a just war either.
Deuteronomy 2:34
Deuteronomy7:16
Joshua 6:21
Doesn’t sound like
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underacloud
Guest
Well, you’ll have to take that issue up with God when you meet Him.
But in the meatime you can answer my question above: are you going to mount an argument that the allies in WWII should not have fought the Nazis?
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Roscoe_Turner
Guest
“Gott Mit Uns” The Nazi’s thought God was on their side as well.
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underacloud
Guest
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Roscoe_Turner
Guest
The Church’s stance was neutrality.
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