Can someone help me come up with a response to pro-choice attacks?

[BRZ]

I think that some of you are misunderstanding what Limerick is saying and before you post you should at least try to understand her. She is not saying that abortion is okay. What she is saying is that currently in the US abortion is legal and it is a choice that women can make. She is saying that if a women wants to choose abortion, she can because it is legal at this time. What she is not saying is that abortion is a moral thing. She understands that a women who chooses abortion will most likely have to face the consequences of their choice but it is still a choice they themselves can make. A person can choose to murder another person, but it doesn’t mean that the choice is a moral one or right. She isn’t saying that there shouldn’t be a law against it, she is just pointing out the reality as it is right now.

 

[limerick]

**So basically you wish for others to make the laws for you? Or would you prefer to live in a jungle where each person carries their own moral law? And bascially if we ever happened to overturn this abortion law, you’d sit quielty and just accept it since to fight it, would be wanting to assign rights to an individual. **

Correct. God also assigns each person their ‘Right to Life’. You, myself, a child or a preborn child each has this basic right. You seem to love to pass over that part as if it didn’t exist.

I never asked about yourself. I asked if you think it’s OUR (as in Catholics) business.

You mean a system you feel you have no right to speak up for regarding moral guidelines. This system in your world you feel shouldn’t even exist I would have to assume since you defend ‘choice’ so much.

And as I have said many times over, choice in the context of this thread regarding a woman’s right to ‘choose’ means exactly that. If I were to say, I were for the ‘choice’ of pedophiles to molest kids without any kind of moral law stating it’s a crime yet persistently say as you do, I’m not for the molesting part, I’m for their choice. Do you not think that makes me part of that crime. To defend pedophiles ‘right’ to choose this act without a punishment attached to it? Please limerick, that is exactly what ‘prochoice’ does. It is saying, I’m all for allowing a woman the right to murder her unborn child if she wants to without attatching any kind of punishment to her crime. You are defending her murder and disguising it as some sort of ‘choice’. Of course it’s her choice. Of course a rapist can rape if he wants to. But should we say, he can have this choice and get off scott free. What kind of a world do you even live in to suggest this is acceptable thinking. You seem to love to confuse this issue over and over and as I read your responses, my jaw literally drops because there is no sense to it.

---

You seem to repeat it over and over again meanwhile skipping many things we say to use your examples against you.

**I never glossed over anything. It’s just more gibberish that seems to try to evade the points I’m making and comparing it to your own ideas of pro choice. What does abortion being legal or Purgatory or Hell have to do with if there ‘SHOULD’ be punishment to killing the unborn if it is indeed murder. And since we know ALL murderers make their ‘choice’ even many very complex choices, get jail, why are woman and men who partake in this same act not only getting away with it, but actually having the goverments allowing their own doctors to assist this evil.

**

**I just spent two hours of precious time posting a thorough and detailed response to your questions and, unfortunately, because of a computer problem or a CAF problem, the post was lost. This is extremely frustrating to me and I do not have two more hours to devote to this tonight. I want you to know that I will come back to this when my mind cools off because many, many points need to be addressed. I’m sorry, I’m not bypassing your post. I just need to get some air.

Limerick**

 

[limerick]

I think that some of you are misunderstanding what Limerick is saying and before you post you should at least try to understand her. She is not saying that abortion is okay. What she is saying is that currently in the US abortion is legal and it is a choice that women can make. She is saying that if a women wants to choose abortion, she can because it is legal at this time. What she is not saying is that abortion is a moral thing. She understands that a women who chooses abortion will most likely have to face the consequences of their choice but it is still a choice they themselves can make. A person can choose to murder another person, but it doesn’t mean that the choice is a moral one or right. She isn’t saying that there shouldn’t be a law against it, she is just pointing out the reality as it is right now.

**God bless you for encapsulating my philosophy in the wake of my lost post! I am truly grateful for your step toward understanding my position - you are correct - and you have been my angel today.

Blessings to you, BRZ.

Limerick**

 

[Des]

I think that some of you are misunderstanding what Limerick is saying and before you post you should at least try to understand her. She is not saying that abortion is okay. What she is saying is that currently in the US abortion is legal and it is a choice that women can make. She is saying that if a women wants to choose abortion, she can because it is legal at this time. What she is not saying is that abortion is a moral thing. She understands that a women who chooses abortion will most likely have to face the consequences of their choice but it is still a choice they themselves can make. A person can choose to murder another person, but it doesn’t mean that the choice is a moral one or right. She isn’t saying that there shouldn’t be a law against it, she is just pointing out the reality as it is right now.

Then she’s doing an awful lot of talking for someone stating something everyone in here already knows.

She has persistently defended a woman’s ‘choice’ to abort, with impunity. Not one post have I read from her, where she states there should be a law against abortion. As a matter of fact, she continues to say it’s not her place nor business to take away a woman’s ‘choice’ to abort thereby indirectly supporting a woman’s ‘choice’ to kill their unborn children. She is saying she has no power to tell a woman that murdering her unborn child is wrong then throws that word ‘choice’ in her statements alot just to throw more confusing into the mix.

If for example we do not protest against the slaughter of the Jews and say it’s these murderer’s ‘choice’ to kill them and it’s not our business to interfere and create laws to prevent this, then something is definitely wrong with that line of thinking. It’s saying “you can do whatever you like and we have no right to create any sort of moral law to stop you because it’s none of our business.” Oh but I’m not for this type of killing but go ahead, continue doing it cause if it came down to a vote, I’d support your ‘choice’ to kill the Jews. But again, I don’t necessarily agree with it."

Honestly, I’m getting a headache just trying to weed through her nonsensical gibberish and I’m finding myself just wasting energy attempting to discuss this with her. She’s been a pro choice advocate for 40 years I think I read in a post of hers. So it’s unlikley she anywhere close to changing her views regarding this issue. So yeah, wasting my breath here.

 

[Revert_TSIEG]

I have read several posts, and am so upset by the amount of close-minded comments make on both sides of this topic. If an open dialog is what all parties are striving for, then perhaps the stereotypes, name calling, and prejudices should stop. We are all humans who have their own opinion. No one is saying that you have to agree, but please stop being rude.

I have made comments that were not appropriate at times, but I have learned that flaming in the internet does absolutely nothing for your cause!!

God Bless

Revert TSIEG

 

[limerick]

then she’s doing an awful lot of talking for someone stating something everyone in here already knows.

as are you.

she has persistently defended a woman’s ‘choice’ to abort, with impunity.

i have defended a woman’s right to exercise her god-given free will in deciding how to handle an unwanted pregnancy, not necessarily how to get directions to the nearest abortion facility.

not one post have i read from her, where she states there should be a law against abortion. As a matter of fact, she continues to say it’s not her place nor business to take away a woman’s ‘choice’ to abort thereby indirectly supporting a woman’s ‘choice’ to kill their unborn children. She is saying she has no power to tell a woman that murdering her unborn child is wrong then throws that word ‘choice’ in her statements alot just to throw more confusing into the mix.

**i did not say i have no power “to tell a woman that murdering her unborn child is wrong”. I have said repeatedly that i am not compelled to force my personal beliefs on her. I am not her conscience. She has her own conscience. She will be solely accountable. And if you think the word “choice” is confusing, what must you think of the term “free will”? **

if for example we do not protest against the slaughter of the jews and say it’s these murderer’s ‘choice’ to kill them and it’s not our business to interfere and create laws to prevent this, then something is definitely wrong with that line of thinking. It’s saying “you can do whatever you like and we have no right to create any sort of moral law to stop you because it’s none of our business.” oh but i’m not for this type of killing but go ahead, continue doing it cause if it came down to a vote, i’d support your ‘choice’ to kill the jews. But again, i don’t necessarily agree with it."

then force yourself to become visibly proactive in your region, and get on with “creat[ing] laws to prevent this”. You obviously feel that every woman’s reproductive life is wide open to your personal and expert scrutiny. Get on the bullhorn about it. Get on the lecture circuit. Write to your representatives. Vote. Pray. Protest. Just remember that absolutely nothing you do to try to stop abortion will have the power to stop one single woman who is bound and determined to have one, legal or not.

honestly, i’m getting a headache just trying to weed through her nonsensical gibberish and i’m finding myself just wasting energy attempting to discuss this with her.

this has never been a discussion. I have been on the receiving end of petty finger-pointing and sophomoric claims that my posts cannot be understood. I have asked several times for clarification from you on points either muddled by typos or misspellings or twisted english. And you have not responded. You have reacted.

she’s been a pro choice advocate for 40 years i think i read in a post of hers. So it’s unlikley she anywhere close to changing her views regarding this issue. So yeah, wasting my breath here.

**at last we agree.

Limerick

postscript: I have had this experience on three different computers: when previewing the post, nearly all capital letters are reduced to lower-case letters. I just don’t have the time to go back and fix it. Just pretend I’m e e cummings.**

 

[Brytani]

Hi there,

Well, I need some help coming up with a response to these statements

“Why wouldn’t you abort your child? What if your daughter got raped by a violent thug, would you keep that baby? I would forget the so called “God” and kill the child.”

-Jeanne

I have two responses that I give in abortion debates; one for rape the other for those who claim abortion and the death penalty are some how connected…

On rape…“Why is it that rape is the only violent criminal act where we allow and even applaud the execution of the innocent victim”.

On the DP/Abortion connection: “A murderer who is sentenced to death made the decision to take the life of one or many people in the most violent way; a baby is innocent and could never harm another person. Why can’t we wait until that baby becomes an adult, commits murder THEN you can argue that we should keep that “baby” alive”.

Puts things into perspective does it not?

 

[limerick]

I have two responses that I give in abortion debates; one for rape the other for those who claim abortion and the death penalty are some how connected…

On rape…“Why is it that rape is the only violent criminal act where we allow and even applaud the execution of the innocent victim”.

On the DP/Abortion connection: “A murderer who is sentenced to death made the decision to take the life of one or many people in the most violent way; a baby is innocent and could never harm another person. Why can’t we wait until that baby becomes an adult, commits murder THEN you can argue that we should keep that “baby” alive”.

Puts things into perspective does it not?

You have put quotation marks around someone’s ideas that you endorse on these topics. To whom do you attribute these two quotes?

Limerick

 

[Des]

she has persistently defended a woman’s ‘choice’ to abort, with impunity.

i have defended a woman’s right to exercise her god-given free will in deciding how to handle an unwanted pregnancy, not necessarily how to get directions to the nearest abortion facility.

Translation: "I have defended a woman’s right to exercise her God given free will in deciding whether she should murder her unwanted child or not.

I have said repeatedly that i am not compelled to force my personal beliefs on her. I am not her conscience. She has her own conscience. She will be solely accountable. And if you think the word “choice” is confusing, what must you think of the term “free will”?

Pro-Choice isn’t confusing at all when put in the proper context. You bypassed my questions again. I asked you if a family has the ‘choice’ with impunity to murder her newborn. Yes or no. Logically, you should say ‘yes’ because in your own words, you’re not their conscience and you can’t throw your personal beliefs on them. The funny thing is, they sure can on their child when they snuff the life out of him.
Also, saying a fetus is a human being doesn’t take a leap of faith as Science and logic will attest to this.

---

You obviously feel that every woman’s reproductive life is wide open to your personal and expert scrutiny.

---

***Again your wording is deceiving whereby it’s hides the actual person within this reproductive life cycle. ***

---

Just remember that absolutely nothing you do to try to stop abortion will have the power to stop one single woman who is bound and determined to have one, legal or not.

---

The numbers of accidental births and abortions will inevitably drop and I won’t have to live in a society that feels it’s an acceptable way of life. If you doubt this, then there is no need of a law since the same number of people will break them anyways. No more, no less with or without one.

 

[BRZ]

Des, I am sure we can all appreciate what you are trying to do but your methods are not effective. I am sure I am not the only one that feels that you are being rather aggressive in your approach. I agree with your point of view but I don’t believe you are handling the issue very well. A little compassion will go a long way.

Now, Limerick, I also understand what you are saying but I want to say this to you and I mean it with the utmost respect and compassion. I am a rather straight forward person, sometimes even to the point of being insensitive but I always try to speak the absolute truth and I do feel that I am often inspired by the Holy Spirit in matters of faith (of course I could just be deluding myself but nothing I have said was in contradiction) I do not attribute anything I say to myself however, only to God.

Limerick, it matters not how much a person has experienced in their life if that experience is in fact jaded. What I mean is, a person who experiences many unfortunate circumstances in their life will most likely see the world as a more negative and unfortunate place then someone who has had a more fortunate life. Of course this is not always the case but it seems to be the norm rather then the exception. I truly feel nothing but sorrow at the pain and suffering you have had to bear in your life and I do pray that you will know peace and joy. I want to say, though, that some of the ways in which you see life are counter productive. I know it sounds possibly judgmental to say such a thing but it is not an attempt to judge you but in all sincerity a hope that you will open your heart.

Now, please bear with me for I mean well and my intentions are not to attack you but to have a debate with respect to your dignity.

You say this

“i have defended a woman’s right to exercise her god-given free will in deciding how to handle an unwanted pregnancy, not necessarily how to get directions to the nearest abortion facility.”

You say that you have defended a woman’s rights but you must remember that defending someone for doing the wrong things will only end up implicating yourself. Jesus calls us to defy those things which are immoral, to be a good example and to aid all people in finding the truth. I understand you are not encouraging anyone to get an abortion and I understand you don’t think getting an abortion is moral. That is fine but again as Jesus says, we are called to be more then that which any person might do. A sinner, one who has not found God, might do that exact same thing. A sinner who has not found God might even be against abortion and stand up for their beliefs. But, we who are Christians, followers of God must do more then that of someone who has not found God because we are held up to much higher standards. Being complacent in something is not good enough. Now, this does not mean we must all participate in an anti abortion march. Doing something could be as simple as saying Rosary prayers for the unborn children, victims of abortions. Doing something could be writing a letter, signing a petition, informing people about why abortion is wrong. No one is saying you have to do anything drastic or anything that is inconvenient.

 

[BRZ]

CONTINUED FROM LAST POST

i did not say i have no power “to tell a woman that murdering her unborn child is wrong”. I have said repeatedly that i am not compelled to force my personal beliefs on her. I am not her conscience. She has her own conscience. She will be solely accountable. And if you think the word “choice” is confusing, what must you think of the term “free will”?

I understand what you are trying to say here. This sort of thing can be a very tricky situation. Most people don’t like others telling them what they should believe or do and that is understandable. I think it is probably not wise to walk up to strangers on the street and preach about abortion. Those people may not be willing to listen or may not appreciate your view point. I do not believe anyone should force their personal beliefs on others. However, if the person is someone who you have a relationship with, whether friend or relative, then I see nothing wrong with sharing your opinion in a constructive way. This is not forcing anything on anyone. Also, this is the internet which is a very public place where people are free to share their opinions and ideals. People come here to ask questions or to seek clarification or even support for the things they do. We must continue to be role models in every way regardless of age, nationality, station in life, etc. If someone is having a discussion on abortion, there is no reason why one can’t express their opinions on why it is wrong and alternatives for those particular people. Do not confuse care for others and their well being as being nosy or meddlesome because that is not the case. If someone asks you for advise or someone you really care for is going through a hard time (like in the case of an abortion) there is no reason why you can’t offer them advice, whether they want to hear it or not. Ultimately it will be their decision but sometimes a word from someone we respect can make the difference between life and death and surely that is something we should not be afraid of.

You obviously feel that every woman’s reproductive life is wide open to your personal and expert scrutiny.

Limerick, it is true that everyone has their own privacy which should be protected, however, there are issues of such importance that need to see the light of day. The bible makes note of this and says that evil done in secret should be exposed to the light, take a look at Ephesians 5:11-14 “Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them. For it is a shame even to speak of the things that they do in secret; but when anything is exposed by the light it becomes visible, for anything that becomes visible is light.”
The reason for this being that it is easy to do evil things when it is hidden but when exposed, it becomes much more difficult. When people are enlightened with the truth, it is much harder to do something out of ignorance or out of sheer desire. The truth is a powerful thing, that which comes from God. We must all play our part for we are all responsible for each other. Remember the saying “Am I my brother’s keeper?” The things we say, or don’t say and the things we do or don’t do affect those around us, not only ourselves and we become responsible for the actions that we take, or for our inaction. We of course must be careful not to take it too far so that it becomes self righteous.

I hope you will sincerely read my words and it would be my pleasure to continue this discussion with you.

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

I think that some of you are misunderstanding what Limerick is saying and before you post you should at least try to understand her. She is not saying that abortion is okay. What she is saying is that currently in the US abortion is legal and it is a choice that women can make. She is saying that if a women wants to choose abortion, she can because it is legal at this time. What she is not saying is that abortion is a moral thing. She understands that a women who chooses abortion will most likely have to face the consequences of their choice but it is still a choice they themselves can make. A person can choose to murder another person, but it doesn’t mean that the choice is a moral one or right. She isn’t saying that there shouldn’t be a law against it, she is just pointing out the reality as it is right now.

And yet the OP asked for arguments AGAINST abortion. Certain people are de-railing the thread and crowding out those who wish to help arm the OP with sane arguments AGAINST abortion, not do a moral tapdance about ‘there is no such thing as objective reality.’

There is, and abortion is a grave moral evil. It’s not a ‘choice.’

If it is against the law to step on a sea turtle egg, for the love of God, why is it all right to rip apart a human baby in his mother’s womb?

 

[BRZ]

I think that I mentioned many sane reasons why one shouldn’t have an abortion. Your post was not only not productive at all, it was also not charitable. Just because you are arguing for a good cause does not give you the right to be unkind.

 

[fix]

I do believe you overshot your mark.

We each have the power to choose evil or good. That is the complete point, not just part of it.

Limerick

No, we are free to do good. Doing evil is not freedom but license. It is slavery.

One aspect of free will is the ability to abuse it. That is not the totality of free will. To accent only this one aspect is to make any choice seem acceptable.

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

I still have to wonder why it’s not all right to pick up an eagle feather, or hunt an alligator, or some other species that some bureaucrat has put on the ‘endangered’ list, but baby human beings do not fall under this protection.

Someone posts a question asking for help in arguing for THE RIGHT OF A BABY NOT TO BE MURDERED, and people chime in why slaughter in the womb is fine.

This world has gone insane.

 

[Brytani]

You have put quotation marks around someone’s ideas that you endorse on these topics. To whom do you attribute these two quotes?

Limerick

I placed quotes around the original question then answered underneath. Is that not protocol on this forum? Unless you are referencing my signature line which is clearly attributed to Archbishop Chaput.

As for the quotes, those have been my stock replies to pro-choice apologists on two of the most common conditions or reasonings they argue for abortion to be legal (cases of rape) and their contention the pro-life position is a hypocritical one (death penalty).

Brytani

 

[Brytani]

I still have to wonder why it’s not all right to pick up an eagle feather, or hunt an alligator, or some other species that some bureaucrat has put on the ‘endangered’ list, but baby human beings do not fall under this protection.

Someone posts a question asking for help in arguing for THE RIGHT OF A BABY NOT TO BE MURDERED, and people chime in why slaughter in the womb is fine.

This world has gone insane.

Amen

 

[newbetx]

Hi there,

Well, I need some help coming up with a response to these statements

“Why wouldn’t you abort your child? What if your daughter got raped by a violent thug, would you keep that baby? I would forget the so called “God” and kill the child.”

and I respond:

“Well, what if your mom was raped by some violent thug?? I bet you’re glad that she carried you for nine months and gave you the chance to make something out of your life. And also, if a baby is born out of rape, incest, or whatever, it dosen’t make it any less of a human being. The child could grow up to cure cancer, be president, or the next music sensation.”

and they respond:

“Blah blah blah. I would like to see your daughter raise a child after being raped at the age of 14. I bet that would make some music sensation. He would probably get MTV awards too.”

Can someone help me out here?

-Jeanne

You know, I’ve never had this debate… but I bet you have to take it real slow…

Ask, do you think it’s right to kill a perfectly healthy baby?

If the answer is yes, ask them if it’s alright to kill the elderly?

Is it right to kill the baby of a criminal? Of a single mother?

If the answer was no, ask them when does a baby becomes a baby? 5 min after it’s born? 5 min before, 10 min. an hour? keep this going for a while…

Eventually ask if it’s alright to kill a certain class of people. If so, what keeps them from being in that class? What keeps someone from ever putting them in that class?

The reason we are against abortion is that it takes a defenseless class of people and allows for indiscriminate killing of them. Either all people have a right to life or none of them do. It doesn’t have to do with who their father was, or who there mother was or how they were conceived. This is America where everyone has the right to succeed, live as best they can, and to die with dignity. We can not define a class of “disposable people” otherwise we return to slavery. Would you like to have no voice in becoming a slave? A piece of property?

Just keep laying it on… eventually they may get the picture that it isn’t the “pursuit of happiness” for just the selfish, but for all the living.

 

[Des]

Des, I am sure we can all appreciate what you are trying to do but your methods are not effective. I am sure I am not the only one that feels that you are being rather aggressive in your approach. I agree with your point of view but I don’t believe you are handling the issue very well. A little compassion will go a long way.

BRZ, you’re right. Sometimes I don’t realize how bad I sound until I take a step back and read my posts. My apologies to all.

 

[BRZ]

I still have to wonder why it’s not all right to pick up an eagle feather, or hunt an alligator, or some other species that some bureaucrat has put on the ‘endangered’ list, but baby human beings do not fall under this protection.

Someone posts a question asking for help in arguing for THE RIGHT OF A BABY NOT TO BE MURDERED, and people chime in why slaughter in the womb is fine.

This world has gone insane.

Trust me, I agree with you Sailor Kenshin. The world has gone insane and probably will always be this way until the end of time but we must be as lights in the darkness. We can’t achieve anything unless we shine brightly and we shine brightly when we do God’s will. That means being compassionate, even when we are showing others why they are wrong.

As to abortion, I just don’t know if we will ever be able to convince enough people to make it illegal and make it stick. The problem is, is our culture. We don’t want to take responsibility for the things we do. Most people do not want to suffer or be inconvenienced. It is a sad state of affairs. All the more reason I respect those who will do the right thing regardless of the consequences.