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phatcatholic
Guest
chrisg93…thanks man, good lookin out 
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chemcatholic
Guest
phatmass,
I’ve already bookmarked the phatmass phorum
I plan to do some reading there on a number of different topics. My parents aren’t quite too comfortable with my conversion (they are trying to be supportive though), so I’ll gladly read up on Church teachings 
Peace
I’ve already bookmarked the phatmass phorum
I plan to do some reading there on a number of different topics. My parents aren’t quite too comfortable with my conversion (they are trying to be supportive though), so I’ll gladly read up on Church teachings Peace
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Sherlock
Guest
phatcatholic,
I’m afraid those folks at that site are just nuts, or at least the moderators are. I threw my two-cents worth in (and you were right in telling me I was beginning to be uncharitable), but I doubt it will mean much. I suppose there is the hope that someone (not a nutburger but merely wondering) reading the exchange will see the contrast between your reasoned, charitable approach and the hysterics of your opponents. These folks need our prayers, big time.
I’m afraid those folks at that site are just nuts, or at least the moderators are. I threw my two-cents worth in (and you were right in telling me I was beginning to be uncharitable), but I doubt it will mean much. I suppose there is the hope that someone (not a nutburger but merely wondering) reading the exchange will see the contrast between your reasoned, charitable approach and the hysterics of your opponents. These folks need our prayers, big time.
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phatcatholic
Guest
chrisg93
man, if ur out there, i gotta ask u to abandon the tangent that thread has somehow launched upon. they are using you as a means to avoid the topic at hand. when they jump into ad hominem attacks, u cannot take the bait. you must insist that the thread stay on topic. so, don’t even try to defend urself when they get into that. just refuse to address it. don’t dignify it w/ a reponse. you give them an out when u engage them on their trivial little side comments.
as the major player in that thread, i must ask, w/ all kindness and charity, that you please limit your comments to those pertaining to the sinlessness of mary. i hope that this is a reasonable request and that it is ok for me to ask this of you.
pax christi,
phatcatholic
man, if ur out there, i gotta ask u to abandon the tangent that thread has somehow launched upon. they are using you as a means to avoid the topic at hand. when they jump into ad hominem attacks, u cannot take the bait. you must insist that the thread stay on topic. so, don’t even try to defend urself when they get into that. just refuse to address it. don’t dignify it w/ a reponse. you give them an out when u engage them on their trivial little side comments.
as the major player in that thread, i must ask, w/ all kindness and charity, that you please limit your comments to those pertaining to the sinlessness of mary. i hope that this is a reasonable request and that it is ok for me to ask this of you.
pax christi,
phatcatholic
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dday6750
Guest
Phatcatholic–
I have not had an opportunity to check out your debate, but I have an excellent book I’m reading that my help. “The Life of the the Blessed Virgin Mary” from the visions of Ven. Anne Catherine Emmerich. She also wrote “The Dolorous Passion of our Lord Jesus Christ” which inspired Mel Gibson’s movie. She lived (1774-1824) and her visions include unusual and saintly descriptions that are not recorded in the Gospel. The book has the Imprimatur stamp. (I recently learned that all approved Catholic books have an approval with an Imprimatur named on the copyright page.) She pays much detail to events that relate to Mary in the Old Testament.
Abiding in His Love–
I have not had an opportunity to check out your debate, but I have an excellent book I’m reading that my help. “The Life of the the Blessed Virgin Mary” from the visions of Ven. Anne Catherine Emmerich. She also wrote “The Dolorous Passion of our Lord Jesus Christ” which inspired Mel Gibson’s movie. She lived (1774-1824) and her visions include unusual and saintly descriptions that are not recorded in the Gospel. The book has the Imprimatur stamp. (I recently learned that all approved Catholic books have an approval with an Imprimatur named on the copyright page.) She pays much detail to events that relate to Mary in the Old Testament.
Abiding in His Love–
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Lance_O
Guest
Phatcatholic,
GOOD JOB on the Debate!
I’ve quickly read over the debate (pg1), and maybe these people need to be asked- “just where do you think the bible came from?” Have you read 1 Kings 2:19-21 for the “Queen Mother” comment that "glorybe429" made about being ‘unbiblical’?
Maybe they haven’t read Rev 11:19-12:1 Ark is Heaven/women clothed with sun, ** 2Thes2:15 & 3:6** - stay with Tradition, and 1Tim 3:15- church pillar and foundation of truth. Also, with all the remarks they like to say about being ‘romanist’ and ‘papist’, they must have missed Is 22:20-22, Mt16:16-19, and Jn 21:17. I realized that “slinging scripture verses” isn’t the best way to debate, but maybe you haven’t read some of these, and they would be a good resourse for you. But, but reading over all the things you have written, it’s clear that you are Miles Ahead of Me.
I’m also begining to wonder if our seperated brothers have reading anything other of Romans and Hebrews, and how they came to love only the KJV. Isn’t the NKJV suppose to replaced the KJV? I don’t know too much on the KJV, but I thought I heard somewhere that most our of Protestant brothers use the RSV…but maybe I was wrong. Can anyone help out on this one?
GOOD JOB on the Debate!
I’ve quickly read over the debate (pg1), and maybe these people need to be asked- “just where do you think the bible came from?” Have you read 1 Kings 2:19-21 for the “Queen Mother” comment that "glorybe429" made about being ‘unbiblical’?
Maybe they haven’t read Rev 11:19-12:1 Ark is Heaven/women clothed with sun, ** 2Thes2:15 & 3:6** - stay with Tradition, and 1Tim 3:15- church pillar and foundation of truth. Also, with all the remarks they like to say about being ‘romanist’ and ‘papist’, they must have missed Is 22:20-22, Mt16:16-19, and Jn 21:17. I realized that “slinging scripture verses” isn’t the best way to debate, but maybe you haven’t read some of these, and they would be a good resourse for you. But, but reading over all the things you have written, it’s clear that you are Miles Ahead of Me.
I’m also begining to wonder if our seperated brothers have reading anything other of Romans and Hebrews, and how they came to love only the KJV. Isn’t the NKJV suppose to replaced the KJV? I don’t know too much on the KJV, but I thought I heard somewhere that most our of Protestant brothers use the RSV…but maybe I was wrong. Can anyone help out on this one?
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reggie
Guest
Hi phat, I just wanted to give you something else to consider. It isn’t direct biblical text or anything, just an observation on my part. When Jesus was on the cross, he made seven statements. Six of those statements fulfilled the scripture which pointed to Him and His suffering, the seventh was when He gave Mary to John as his own mother. I believe that in the midst of the pain He was enduring, Jesus would not have made such a mundane arrangement for Mary, and therefore, was in fact offering to His brothers and sisters His own Mother. Jesus did not waste words, everything He said was for our spiritual nourishment. Having said that, I agree that sometimes it is better to move on than attempt to change the mind of someone who does not have the grace of God to understand. Paul wrote to Timothy that we should not be quarrelsome, or wrangle over “words”. Garee will never know the wonderful blessing we have in Mary and the love we know because she gave her life to Jesus first. Scott Hahn has written a beautiful defense of Mary which may help you. Yours in JMJ, reggie
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PaulAckermann
Guest
Hi phatmass,
I think you are doing a great job with Garee. I especially like your attitude with Him, you are stay Christ-like in your dealings with him. And you are very scholarly, calmly presenting the facts.
One thing I would do is use his own words against him. I found that Protestants’ objections to Catholicsm can also be turned around and used against their own beliefs. This shows the inconsistency of the position.
Here is an example:
“God cannot would not create a sinless being such as himself, only He is sinless, since God cannot create Himself, we realize that the statement “all have sinned” applies to every human being ever born.”
Does this mean that Adam and Eve were created sinful? And if they are already sinful before the Fall, what did they fall from?
And does this mean that we will still be sinful in heaven? Does this mean that God cannot and would not make us to be sinless once we see Christ? And if that is the case, what does the Bible mean that once we see Him, we shall be like Him? In what ways are we like Christ in heaven if it does not have to do with sinlessness?
Above all, I would advise you to make it personal. Share with him how devotion to Mary has deepened your love for Christ. I know it has for you, because it has for me. True idolatry draws a person away from God. True idolatry leads one to sin more, not less.
Quote from the saints who have a devotion to Mary but still had a deep love for Christ.
St Augustine said “Lord, thous hast made us for Thyself. And our hearts are ever restless until they rest in Thee” Does this sound like an idolator?
Or take St. Angela Merici who prayed “My Saviour, illumine the darkness of my heart, and grant me the grace rather than to die than to offend your Divine Majesty any more”. Does this sound like an idolator?
Romans 1 talk of the the fruit of true idolatry. True idolatry leads to unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents.
We see none of these sins in the Catholic saints. Instead we see humility, a deep love for God, a zeal to keep His commands.
All other examples of idolatry lead people away from God. For instance, idolizing money leads people away from God. I have not yet met a materialistic person with a deep love for God. The occult leads people away from God, in fact they hate God.
Encourage him to study the lives of the saints. If their devotion to Mary is idolatry, why do they still have such a deep love for Christ?
Protestants have a misconception of us Catholics. They think we love religious things, we love saints, we love rituals, but we do not love Christ. Share with him that your devotion to Mary brings you closer to Christ. I was a Protestant for 12 years. I would brag to my Catholic friends that I was “Christ-centered”, but in reality, I was not Christ-centered at all. I had sin in my life, especially lust, which I excused away by thinking I was “jusified by faith alone”, so it didn’t matter. But I realized I was not living the “Christ-centered” life. I was the center. My sinful desires were the center of my life. I was not able to have victory until after I started taking the Eucharist and praying the Rosary. Now I can say I am really Christ-centered, by God’s grace thru His Eucharist and Mary’s prayers.
I think you are doing a great job with Garee. I especially like your attitude with Him, you are stay Christ-like in your dealings with him. And you are very scholarly, calmly presenting the facts.
One thing I would do is use his own words against him. I found that Protestants’ objections to Catholicsm can also be turned around and used against their own beliefs. This shows the inconsistency of the position.
Here is an example:
“God cannot would not create a sinless being such as himself, only He is sinless, since God cannot create Himself, we realize that the statement “all have sinned” applies to every human being ever born.”
Does this mean that Adam and Eve were created sinful? And if they are already sinful before the Fall, what did they fall from?
And does this mean that we will still be sinful in heaven? Does this mean that God cannot and would not make us to be sinless once we see Christ? And if that is the case, what does the Bible mean that once we see Him, we shall be like Him? In what ways are we like Christ in heaven if it does not have to do with sinlessness?
Above all, I would advise you to make it personal. Share with him how devotion to Mary has deepened your love for Christ. I know it has for you, because it has for me. True idolatry draws a person away from God. True idolatry leads one to sin more, not less.
Quote from the saints who have a devotion to Mary but still had a deep love for Christ.
St Augustine said “Lord, thous hast made us for Thyself. And our hearts are ever restless until they rest in Thee” Does this sound like an idolator?
Or take St. Angela Merici who prayed “My Saviour, illumine the darkness of my heart, and grant me the grace rather than to die than to offend your Divine Majesty any more”. Does this sound like an idolator?
Romans 1 talk of the the fruit of true idolatry. True idolatry leads to unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents.
We see none of these sins in the Catholic saints. Instead we see humility, a deep love for God, a zeal to keep His commands.
All other examples of idolatry lead people away from God. For instance, idolizing money leads people away from God. I have not yet met a materialistic person with a deep love for God. The occult leads people away from God, in fact they hate God.
Encourage him to study the lives of the saints. If their devotion to Mary is idolatry, why do they still have such a deep love for Christ?
Protestants have a misconception of us Catholics. They think we love religious things, we love saints, we love rituals, but we do not love Christ. Share with him that your devotion to Mary brings you closer to Christ. I was a Protestant for 12 years. I would brag to my Catholic friends that I was “Christ-centered”, but in reality, I was not Christ-centered at all. I had sin in my life, especially lust, which I excused away by thinking I was “jusified by faith alone”, so it didn’t matter. But I realized I was not living the “Christ-centered” life. I was the center. My sinful desires were the center of my life. I was not able to have victory until after I started taking the Eucharist and praying the Rosary. Now I can say I am really Christ-centered, by God’s grace thru His Eucharist and Mary’s prayers.
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Chris_W
Guest
Sorry this is so long, but after pondering this all weekend, I have several suggestions for you to consider:
Good Luck. May the Spirit of our Lord be with you.
- I would point out that understanding Mary helps to understand God. Conversely, misunderstanding Mary causes the misunderstanding of God. For example, his statement that Jesus is Ark of Covenant. This cannot be. The Ark is the vessel or container of the Word of God, but separate from its contents. Isreal knew the Ark was not God. Rather the Ark was holy only because of its contents, but separate from them. So, what part of Jesus is the container, separate from the Word of God (God)? Is his Body the vessel? This is the Nestorian Heresy. Whereas if Mary is the new Ark there is no conflict. You touched on this, but take it to its logical conclusion and show him he is denying the true nature of Jesus as both God and Man.
- Get him back to the original accusation that Catholics worship Mary. He has blinders on about everything you say because he is looking through a lens that distorts everything. He assumes, before considering your arguments, that you are defending his preconceived notion that Catholics worship Mary. You will not get anywhere until this first issue is resolved.
- He seems to be an egoist who will feel he has “won” the debate if he overwhelms his opponent with more and more accusations and irrelevant out of context quotes which prevent the possibility of refuting all of his claims. Each new topic leads to more and more accusations. He does seem to respond to a short direct question though. Keep it short, concise and very pointed questions that require a response from him. For example, if he starts with the premise that Catholics worship Mary, perhaps you could ask him for a definition of the word “worship” (he seems to confuse this with honor and intercession). Once we are clear on what he is claiming, you might ask him how he has arrived at this conclusion (rather than explain why it is not true). Put the burden of proof on him. Force him to show where in Catholic teaching it states this. He should be able to show you something in the Catechism, Papal Encyclicals, etc where it says that. Just like if we want to know what the Lutheran Church teaches, we must look to the teachings of Martin Luther. As it stands, he cintinues to debate that Mary should not be worshipped (which we already agree to) because he assumes this is the belief even though you say it is not.
- Once you have overcome the original claim that Catholics worship Mary, I think you need to ask him for a definition of acceptable evidence. If that is strictly the Bible, as I suspect he will say, then you can shorten both your argument by eliminating anything outside of scripture (no more of this person said this, that person said that). While you can indeed debate using only scripture, it is worthwhile to point out that his faith is closed to considering all the evidence. Catholics can look to history, the faith of the Fathers, Apostolic Traditions, etc. while he can only consider one kind of evidence. Just as the naturalist is closed minded because he can only look to science (he must ignore miracles, the problem of Jesus, arguments about an unchanging Moral Law, etc.).
Good Luck. May the Spirit of our Lord be with you.
M
Mathetes007
Guest
We know that God created space and time. He is pure spirit and transcends the created universe. Our past, present, and future are therefore his present. Nothing is hid from Him.
When our first parents fell, God promised them one that would come in our future to destroy the works of the serpent (Genesis 3:15). This was already pre-established since God in His present could see our future. Christ’s redemptive work as slain lamb and the election of the saved were viewed by God “from the foundation of the world” (Ephesians 1:4; Revelation 13:8; 17:8). Jesus did not have to die repeatedly but only once since the foundation of the world (Hebrews 9:26). His destiny was fixed but it was made manifest for us in time (1 Peter 1:20). Since God is outside of time He could apply the future sacrifice to past events for those in the Old Covenant. Hebrews chapter 11 speaks of the Old Testament saints that made it into heaven. Although they did not receive the promise of the savior in their lifetimes they saw it and greeted it from afar (Hebrews 11:13-16). They were not perfected until the New Covenant came though (Hebrews 11:39).
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PaulAckermann
Guest
*And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." But He was saying this to indicate the kind of death by which He was to die. * -John 12:31, 32
Here, Jesus says that when he is lifted up on the cross, He will draw ALL men to Himself. This could not have just been the people at His time. It had to have been all men - past, present and future.
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Des
Guest
Phat, these are ex-catholics who seem to have a deep rooted hatred for the Catholic Church. No matter what you throw at them they most likely will not listen. I mean all they do is keep repeating the same verses at you and say that “this is what it means.” They believe that they are all a bunch of infallible “little Popes” where they can teach no error. You tell them how catholics view the Virgin Mary and they tell you that this is not our views. It’s kind of funny in a way. A protestant telling a catholic what they believe.
Anyways, I’m sure that God is pleased with the way you defend and honor His Immaculate Mother.
Anyways, I’m sure that God is pleased with the way you defend and honor His Immaculate Mother.
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agname
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RMP
Guest
I read many books , Keating, Ray, Sungenus. ect on the beliefs of MARY. But of all of them I would have to recomend “THE World’s First LOVE” by ArchBishop Fulton Sheen. Written 50 yrs ago. It is an easy read, witty and fun. Sheen is so bold sometimes he seems to push scripture aside and make his points by plain common sense or genius.
Many books give you (ammunition u might say for spiritual dialoge) insight into the doctrines of MARY, but this book gave me LOVE and appreciation for our Mother & and the MOTHER of our LORD.
Many books give you (ammunition u might say for spiritual dialoge) insight into the doctrines of MARY, but this book gave me LOVE and appreciation for our Mother & and the MOTHER of our LORD.
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SherryLynn9
Guest
What an awesome website. I know I can’t wait to explore it.
Peace be with you!
phatcatholic:
Peace be with you!
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mrS4ntA
Guest
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Shiann
Guest
I was just reading the thread and noted that someone had a problem with the “Queen of Heaven” title we offer to Holy Mary.
I heard a great, reasonable explaination for this- on this site if I remember right- but it eluded to the fact that in Jewish kingdoms, the men were the Kings obviously, but their wives were not considered the Queens… it was the King’s mother who was considered the Queen.
She was not a Queen to ‘rule’ so to speak, but more as a person for the people in the kingdom to ask favors to- or more pointedly, she was their intecessor to the King!
I heard a great, reasonable explaination for this- on this site if I remember right- but it eluded to the fact that in Jewish kingdoms, the men were the Kings obviously, but their wives were not considered the Queens… it was the King’s mother who was considered the Queen.
She was not a Queen to ‘rule’ so to speak, but more as a person for the people in the kingdom to ask favors to- or more pointedly, she was their intecessor to the King!
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flameburns623
Guest
Went to the site. Can anyone say the word ‘bigot’?? I knew you could! What a place to try to engage in apologetics.
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mrS4ntA
Guest
I’ve told him that, including citing the writings of Early Fathers which he demanded, but he just ignored them and just refused to admit…
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Shiann
Guest
::SIGH::I’ve told him that, including citing the writings of Early Fathers which he demanded, but he just ignored them and just refused to admit…
After reading more of the thread- I have to offer to you my deepest respect and support. I know that many of us have had to defend our positions to others, and you have maintained a level of christian civility that makes me proud to call each of you who have defended the faith, “brother” (and sister of course!).
I guess in some cases people’s hearts are hardened to the truth, and though their intentions seem sincere- they miss the forest for the trees so to speak.
I do not think you will be able to convince him of anything at this time, but I will pray for him. On the other hand, I don’t think you should feel that any of your efforts are falling on deaf ears. Who knows how many lurkers or posters at the site have been moved by your words, and more importantly- by your example of civility and character. You might have even given others the confidence to defend Catholicism more effectively and compassionately to family, friends, and co-workers.
I know you have done that for me.
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