Can someone help?

[jjr9]

No, it doesn’t. Your argument first and foremost is with science.

No, it’s not. The temptations each person experiences may be influenced by their own unique circumstances. I gave you examples in other posts - you chose not to respond.

Without reference to sexuality, what is your concern?

You are welcome to your view.

I don’t believe you have presented a truly right and just reason for the Church’s claim that
a group of people has the capacity to “experience an exclusive … sexual attraction toward
persons of the same sex”. I am not aware of any.

God bless

 

[Rau]

I don’t believe … that a group of people has the capacity to “experience an exclusive … sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex”.

You appear to have ceased to participate in the discussion.

Please do some research at a library.

 

[Sarah_B_Good]

I don’t think he intends to demonise the person experiencing SSA. After all, he declared that SSA is temptation, which itself is not sinful. Certainly he is entrenched in a position without foundation, and I suspect he recognizes some difficulties with his position, noting his preference to avoid responding to some posts which undermine his position.

For comparison, see also the historical posts of Catolico65 and Brass Ankles. They are the same person.

Oh, I agree. I’m sure that’s not his intention. I’m just suggesting that homosexuality is a matter of choice inevitably leads to the demonization, dehumanization and oppression of homosexual people.

 

[jjr9]

You appear to have ceased to participate in the discussion.

Please do some research at a library.

Still waiting to hear a truly right and just reason for the Church’s claim a group of people have
the capacity to “experience an exclusive … sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex”.

I don’t expect to which is why I believe the Church is in error and doing an injustice to this group
of people.

God bless

 

[jjr9]

Oh, I agree. I’m sure that’s not his intention. I’m just suggesting that homosexuality is a matter of choice inevitably leads to the demonization, dehumanization and oppression of homosexual people.

What is it that informs your belief in the “homosexual person”?

Do you believe that anyone is incapable of attraction to persons of the opposite sex?

God bless

 

[Sarah_B_Good]

I don’t believe name calling is very helpful.

I do believe that no one is incapable of attraction to persons of the opposite sex. You seem unwilling to support
your position.

To be clear, my use of the word “fundamentalist” was not intended in a pejorative sense, but rather to describe what seems to me is an unwavering devotion to an irreducible belief.

I believe that testimonials are of extreme value, and that any visit to a library to research the subject of homosexuality would yield a plethora of studies showing differences in physical responses to sexual stimuli, differences in brain structure, differences in MRI and FMRI scans of the brains of homosexuals verses their heterosexual counterparts. There is a wealth of information out there demonstrating that homosexual orientation is a very real thing…A FACT.

You choose to ignore all of this evidence and discount testimonials in favour of your strict adherence to this fundamentalist belief, one for which you have provided absolutely no evidence.

It’s the equivalent of trying to argue with someone at the Creation Museum that depicts people and dinosaurs living together. There is no intelligent discussion that can take place about the age of the earth with someone who believes the world is 6,000 years old. That’s a discussion that’s going to go no nowhere, much like our current discussion, which is why I’m opting out.

I’m sorry if you feel insulted by that, but there is just no other way I can say it.

 

[Sarah_B_Good]

What is it that informs your belief in the “homosexual person”?

Do you believe that anyone is incapable of attraction to persons of the opposite sex?

God bless

Yes. There are people who are incapable of attraction to persons of the opposite sex. This is abundantly clear.

Do you have any evidence demonstrating that everyone experiences attraction to the opposite sex?

 

[Rau]

To be clear, my use of the word “fundamentalist” was not intended in a pejorative sense, but rather to describe what seems to me is an unwavering devotion to an irreducible belief.

I believe that testimonials are of extreme value, and that any visit to a library to research the subject of homosexuality would yield a plethora of studies showing differences in physical responses to sexual stimuli, differences in brain structure, differences in MRI and FMRI scans of the brains of homosexuals verses their heterosexual counterparts. There is a wealth of information out there demonstrating that homosexual orientation is a very real thing…A FACT.

You choose to ignore all of this evidence and discount testimonials in favour of your strict adherence to this fundamentalist belief, one for which you have provided absolutely no evidence.

It’s the equivalent of trying to argue with someone at the Creation Museum that depicts people and dinosaurs living together. There is no intelligent discussion that can take place about the age of the earth with someone who believes the world is 6,000 years old. That’s a discussion that’s going to go no nowhere, much like our current discussion, which is why I’m opting out.

I’m sorry if you feel insulted by that, but there is just no other way I can say it.

I think describing jjr9’s position as “fundamentalist” does a disservice to many fundamentalists! Fundamentalism need not be irrational, it need not ignore the reality of the world. To believe abortion, contraception and same sex sexual relations are always wrong can be properly described as fundamentalist but it does not fly in the face of facts. To deny the experience of persons who experience SSA, to ignore scientific findings in connection with those experiences - that is not fundamentalist - that is simply to render one’s own position ineffective and lacking merit.

 

[jjr9]

To be clear, my use of the word “fundamentalist” was not intended in a pejorative sense, but rather to describe what seems to me is an unwavering devotion to an irreducible belief.

I believe that testimonials are of extreme value, and that any visit to a library to research the subject of homosexuality would yield a plethora of studies showing differences in physical responses to sexual stimuli, differences in brain structure, differences in MRI and FMRI scans of the brains of homosexuals verses their heterosexual counterparts. There is a wealth of information out there demonstrating that homosexual orientation is a very real thing…A FACT.

You choose to ignore all of this evidence and discount testimonials in favour of your strict adherence to this fundamentalist belief, one for which you have provided absolutely no evidence.

It’s the equivalent of trying to argue with someone at the Creation Museum that depicts people and dinosaurs living together. There is no intelligent discussion that can take place about the age of the earth with someone who believes the world is 6,000 years old. That’s a discussion that’s going to go no nowhere, much like our current discussion, which is why I’m opting out.

I’m sorry if you feel insulted by that, but there is just no other way I can say it.

I understand that you cannot present any “information out there demonstrating that homosexual orientation is a very
real thing…A FACT.”.

I do not know how to prove something doesn’t exist but you should be able to present proof of what you claim exists.

God bless

 

[jjr9]

Yes. There are people who are incapable of attraction to persons of the opposite sex. This is abundantly clear.

Do you have any evidence demonstrating that everyone experiences attraction to the opposite sex?

The issue is not complicated the Church makes a claim that a group of people has the capacity to “experience
an exclusive … sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex”. Is this statement true or false?
I believe the statement is false.

God bless

 

[Rau]

…I do not know how to prove something doesn’t exist but you should be able to present proof of what you claim exists.

It’s a common practice on CAF to require posters to do their own basic research. On this topic, the material is voluminous. If you find specific faults with it, there’d be something to discuss.

 

[Thorolfr]

I believe the statement is false.

What evidence do you have for your belief? Can you cite any scientific studies, for example? Why should we or the Catholic Church support your belief that this statement is false? We need more than your own unsupported opinion.

 

[Rau]

The…Church makes a claim that a group of people has the capacity to “experience an exclusive … sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex”

You need to stop verballing the Church. Curious that you prefer to accuse the Church for accepting scientific findings rather than the scientistific community who made those findings. Presumably to do the latter credibly would entail some work on you part…

 

[Rau]

What evidence do you have for your belief? Can you cite any scientific studies, for example? Why should we or the Catholic Church support your belief that this statement is false? We need more than your own unsupported opinion.

I’m still waiting for him to decide whether those who claim to experience SSA are all liars, or all confused. He has argued both!

 

[jjr9]

What evidence do you have for your belief?Can you cite any scientific studies, for example?

I do not know how to prove something doesn’t exist but you should be able to present proof of what you claim exists.

Why should we or the Catholic Church support your belief that this statement is false? We need more than your own unsupported opinion.

St. Paul teaches on this issue of SSA and same sex behavior in Romans 1:24-28:

24Therefore, God handed them over to impurity through the lusts of their hearts for the mutual degradation of
their bodies. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie and revered and worshiped the creature rather than
the creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26Therefore, God handed them over to degrading passions. Their
females exchanged natural relations for unnatural, 27and the males likewise gave up natural relations with
females and burned with lust for one another. Males did shameful things with males and thus received in their
own persons the due penalty for their perversity. 28And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God
handed them over to their undiscerning mind to do what is improper.

I believe this “new” Church teaching inconsistent with St. Paul’s teaching. I believe St. Paul doesn’t allow
for a “homosexual person” (as defined by the Church) this “new” Church teaching endorses the “homosexual person”.
I believe that St. Paul makes it clear that this sort of immoral behavior is driven by a separation from the Lord and
succumbing to temptation from Satan not some sort of different nature.

God bless

 

[jjr9]

I’m still waiting for him to decide whether those who claim to experience SSA are all liars, or all confused. He has argued both!

You are confused I have not called anyone a liar.

God bless

 

[Rau]

I do not know how to prove something doesn’t exist but you should be able to present proof of what you claim exists.

That’s not what is requested. You need to provide evidence for your claim that persons claiming SSA are lying or confused. You have argued both, though I suggest you will need to decide which. Does scientific investigation support that claim?

St. Paul teaches on this issue of SSA and same sex behavior in Romans 1:24-28:

24Therefore, God handed them over to impurity through the lusts of their hearts for the mutual degradation of
their bodies. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie and revered and worshiped the creature rather than
the creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26Therefore, God handed them over to degrading passions. Their
females exchanged natural relations for unnatural, 27and the males likewise gave up natural relations with
females and burned with lust for one another. Males did shameful things with males and thus received in their
own persons the due penalty for their perversity. 28And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God
handed them over to their undiscerning mind to do what is improper.

Clearly you believe you have a superior understanding of this piece of Scripture than the Church itself?

I believe that St. Paul makes it clear that this sort of immoral behavior is driven by a separation from the Lord and succumbing to temptation from Satan not some sort of different nature.

The behaviour (same sex sexual relations) - as opposed to the temptations, and the circumstances that my render a person prone to such temptation - is sinful and represents a separation from the Lord. So no argument here (from me anyway).

There is NO assertion from the Church that the person experiencing SSA loses the free will to choose a moral course and remain in the Lord’s favour. Do you believe that many who experience SSA remain in the Lord’s favour?

 

[Rau]

You are confused I have not called anyone a liar.

You have old friend. You said (in post #169) that the statement (once used by the Church) “Homosexuals do not choose their condition” was an error. Thus, you claim they DO choose their condition (SSA). That would be to make a liar out of those who claim they have no explanation for their inclination, and that it is unwanted and a trial. You are aware that many of these are people are good Christians, striving daily to live a chaste life. Why do you accuse them so?

 

[Thorolfr]

I do not know how to prove something doesn’t exist but you should be able to present proof of what you claim exists.

Can you prove that all people with SSA are capable of opposite sex attraction? Isn’t that what you have been claiming? Can you prove it? You can’t use Paul since he never made any statements about this question. The fact that some people with SSA claim to now have opposite sex attraction can’t be used either since they could have been bisexual and you have also said that personal claims don’t prove anything.

 

[jjr9]

Can you prove that all people with SSA are capable of opposite sex attraction? Isn’t that what you have been claiming? Can you prove it?

I will believe this through faith in Church history, tradition and Apostolic teaching. You are free to believe
whatever you like.

You can’t use Paul since he never made any statements about this question.

What is it you think St Paul is talking about here:

Romans 1:27

and the males likewise gave up natural relations with females and burned with lust for one another.

God bless