Can someone please Enlighten me?

[MarieVeronica]

Can someone enlighten me, please?

I’d like to know what is wrong with some young parents these days? Why are they NOT teaching their children that the Mass is SACRED???

Last night, at 5:30 p.m. Vigil Mass… there was a family of 5 sitting directly behind me. A Dad, Mom and 3 boys… appearing to range in age from about 3 to 11. The littlest boy was very well behaved… but the 2 older, were a different story. They behaved like monsters.

Throughout the entire Mass… they misbehaved. Loudly whispering, giggling, laughing out loud, poking and kicking each other, fussing, fidgeting. whining. And the entire thing, culminating with one of the boys “flatulating”, loudly. This of course, sent them both into peals of laughter. All of this took place, as the Holy Mass progressed.

And here is the astounding part. Mom and Dad… DID ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to quiet or correct their “little darlings”. At one point, I thought I even heard Mom… snickering along with them.

It wasn’t until one of the boys made the rude sound, mentioned above… that I reached my wits end. As they sat, laughing out loud… I turned and glared at them. It was ONLY then, that Mom leaned over in their general direction and offered a half-hearted… “shhhhhhhhh”. While Dad, continued to ignore them, completely.

That father should have MANNED UP… and grabbed them both by the scruff of the neck, one in each hand… hauled them out to the Narthex… and firmly corrected them… THEN and THERE.

I couldn’t help but remember back to the days when my sisters and I were young. If we had dared to behave that way in Mass… we would have been skinned alive, when we got home. And we KNEW it. Just ONE disapproving glance from our mother… was enough to quiet us… if we got ansty. And that was pretty much the scenario for ALL children in Mass. I can clearly remember the occasional “rebel” being quickly taken OUTSIDE, away from the congregation where he or she was dealt with. I can remember looking outside and seeing parents, bending down to a crying child… and talking to them… shaking a finger at them, etc.

I just don’t understand why some parents let their kids get away with this deplorable behavior… especially during the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Is it because THEY themselves, don’t understand what is happening on the altar?? Someone, please help me understand this…

Thank you.

 

[spencer2]

I could be exaggerating but I think the majority of the congregation (at least where I’m from) don’t know what’s taking place on the altar. Lack of catechesis is usually the problem.

 

[Gordon_Sims]

I agree that both parents should have been addressing the problem. Although my wife & I see some bad behavior at Mass, more often it’s the adults indulging in it. We do see it from kids occasionally as well, but most of what we’ve seen has come from alleged adults. I think for a lot of them it’s a result of our overly secularized society. Nothing’s sacred, do as you please, etc. Why not put your feet up, joke around and socialize throughout Mass?

That being said, I’ll admit that my siblings and I goofed off quite a bit at Mass, especially once we got to be in our teens. Looking back on it, I feel sorry for the times we very likely annoyed the people around us or even disrupted their ability to enjoy Mass to its fullest. I can’t say why we were allowed to get away with it to the degree we were, but it’s something that, once I became a parent, I wasn’t going to allow from my kids. Even when we weren’t attending regularly or taking our faith as seriously as we should have, I never allowed my kids to act up in Mass. That’s not to say the didn’t/don’t try, but they know it’s not something they’ll get away with, and they know I won’t hesitate to separate them or switch up our seating arrangements to keep things reverent.

 

[MarieVeronica]

I agree that both parents should have been addressing the problem. Although my wife & I see some bad behavior at Mass, more often it’s the adults indulging in it. We do see it from kids occasionally as well, but most of what we’ve seen has come from alleged adults. I think for a lot of them it’s a result of our overly secularized society. Nothing’s sacred, do as you please, etc. Why not put your feet up, joke around and socialize throughout Mass?

That being said, I’ll admit that my siblings and I goofed off quite a bit at Mass, especially once we got to be in our teens. Looking back on it, I feel sorry for the times we very likely annoyed the people around us or even disrupted their ability to enjoy Mass to its fullest. I can’t say why we were allowed to get away with it to the degree we were, but it’s something that, once I became a parent, I wasn’t going to allow from my kids. Even when we weren’t attending regularly or taking our faith as seriously as we should have, I never allowed my kids to act up in Mass. That’s not to say the didn’t/don’t try, but they know it’s not something they’ll get away with, and they know I won’t hesitate to separate them or switch up our seating arrangements to keep things reverent.

I’m just curious, Gordon. May I ask your age? I’m in my early 50’s. And I’m trying to figure out if this is a generational problem… or what? Because when I was growing up, in the 1960’s… 1970’s… this type of behavior was not tolerated. And we attended two different parishes. The story was the same at both. We knew well, that we had better behave ourselves… or face dire consequences… once home. And I saw very little “ill behavior” from kids around us, but if we did… I can clearly remember parents dealing with it then and there.

btw… I applaud you for admitting your own youthful indiscretions… and deciding that your own kids would not “get away” with the same.

 

[MatthewMichael]

Yes, I believe irreverence is a real problem. I’m in mid twenties and this kind of socializing at Mass is pretty commonplace in my neck of the woods, adults and children alike. Once a parish community starts tolerating this kind of thing, it seems hard to change.

 

[AnneElizabeth]

I can understand the Op’s lament, though I don’t get as upset with the children as I do adults who act in similar ways. The poor children don’t have a clue, probably because their parents don’t either… and neither did the grandparents as well… so the problem just keeps on. Once I was so angry at some people for chit chatting durning mass it took all of me not to pull my boot off and throw it at their head! I just thought they should know better, and its that sort of behavior that perpetuates the idea that Mass is just like going to the school auditorium for a show, or something like that. Really mundane, like it doesn’t matter a thing.

I agree that people aren’t catechized, but I think it goes deeper than that. They just don’t believe. That’s it… OR, the other reason could be that they don’t believe Jesus wants them to be all ‘stiff upper lip’ and presented like a soldier’s pageantry, which might be how they view people who are reverent. I think its a combination of both of these things. Of course, behavior at the Mass isn’t supposed to be about ‘stiff upper lip’ type pageantry, but neither is it supposed to be about laxity and comfort. I think most people get stuck in the opposites and miss the real point of being in Mass.

I’m in my mid 30’s. I would have to say that now knowing the history of the Church, I wish it would return back to the way it was before where people were always respectful. I can’t stand going to church and hearing the people chit chat, but I realize they just don’t know. It makes it very hard to pray in a spot where people feel its a social area. That’s why I go to daily Mass… You know those who are there WANT to be there, and will be respectful.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I’m also in my 50s, having raised children, now with one small grandson.

It’s hard to say as we don’t know all the situation.

Lots of people in my age range never really disciplined their own children. They didn’t want to be the authority, they wanted to be the FRIEND. These are my peers who didn’t want the responsibility of being ‘in charge’. And of course their children, having never learned authority, don’t have any authority over their own children, even if they wanted to try.

Society isn’t much help. For all the glares we give children (having evolved in many but not all places into a "we LOVE children in theory, but despise them in practice if they annoy us’) and families when they are disruptive, we don’t act ourselves because it would hurt the parents’ FEELINGS if we seemed to be CRITICIZING THEIR AUTHORITY or lack thereof.

Now in this particular case, probably parents not only lacked discipline themselves, but they are also probably both working outside the home and exposed to all manner of ‘advice’ and all sorts of activities. It is very likely that they come to Mass pretty much because it’s a routine AND because it is a chance for THEM to sort of ‘relax’. They are not at home,they are in public, and thus they feel they don’t need to ‘watch’ their children; that is the responsibility of the priest! (if they were at a swimming pool, these are the parents who would lie back on the blankets and let the children run wild, depending on the LIFEGUARD to do the discipline.).

Also many parents become accustomed to what they consider ‘acceptable’ behavior for their children but their notions of ‘acceptable’ are often more outrageous to the majority. This could explain why the boys were ‘allowed’ to act up so much. Probably they ‘get away with’ this activity everywhere else. Probably the only time the parents might even notice is if the children started physically assaulting each other ‘seriously’. Pokes and swats are so ‘normal’ they don’t even register, but screaming and visible bruising or damage would be the only time they would scold.

It’s hard to assign, not exactly blame, but more ‘responsibility’. Is some responsibility to be laid on the parents of the parents if they did not teach decent behavior? On the parents themselves because even if they didn’t learn as children, there is certainly information available now that they should have learned and used? on the children --depending on age–because if they are over the age of reason they should also be aware that even if mom and dad are oblivious, they should not be acting in certain ways? On society, for appearing in so many ways to applaud bad behavior in the young?

Prayer, modeling good behavior, education and encouragement are all necessary and it is going to take a couple of generations at least to bring us ‘back’ to our senses, if indeed things haven’t already gone too far. . .

 

[englishredrose]

Its a part of growing up.

There is a choice that all of us have to make when we see behaviour we don’t like. We can either chunter about it ourselves or we can choose to be pleased that they are actually there to begin with. At first that takes effort but worth it in the long run.

Its probably why many boys serve because serving means they are involved and 100% occupied certainly at the beginning as they are learning what to do. But then as they get comfortable their antics are seen by the congregation and some members choose to tell them off direct or some choose to via Head Server which is the correct approach actually but does mean some things might not get brought to the attention to the boy messing about if the Head Server sees it as normal growing up stuff etc. The rest of children if wise enter the choir etc but of course of which don’t happen at the said services. I think as adults we forget how meaningless it is for children unless we are good at being able to give them things that help occupy them in the service that is connected to the service. There are junior books available on the market to help them through. We adults are pretty impatient too and give up if we don’t like it but drag our kids to everything if we do like and simply expect them to conform just like that. If they are bored and don’t feel involved then they behave just like we do but with less decorum because they haven’t learnt that yet.

We cannot control what others say and do around us but we can control how we react and we can choose to welcome them warmly or we can choose to make ourself angry about it. The choice is yours to make I guess therefore?

 

[gh4]

I get tired of hearing that children can’t sit quietly for the 50 minutes to 1 hour that mass lasts.

I have been to our local Mennonite church and their children sit quietly for their 1 hour to 1.5 hour service, without toys or drawing or other distractions. If their children can do it, surely other children can sit quietly during church services. It’s all in what parents expect of their children and how the children are taught. If the Mennonites have a child younger than 3 and that child gets fussy, they remove him/her from the church to the cry room or to the outside, and they do it quickly. Children older than 3 simply get “the look” from one of their parents and the undesirable behavior disappears!

I don’t complain at church, I agree that at least they are in church, but I sure wish parents would do more than ignore their children when they display very distracting behavior.
I make sure that I don’t sit near them, it’s a lot easier to ignore them if they are behind you by several pews!

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

I couldn’t help but remember back to the days when my sisters and I were young. If we had dared to behave that way in Mass… we would have been skinned alive, when we got home.

Ahhhhh yes… daddy getting his belt out and going to town on the kiddos… these were the good ol’ days of “family values”

 

[englishredrose]

when i was young :yawn:

 

[john78]

it is weird indeed, im 33, i have seen the changes in congregation growing up, i was far from well behaved but my mom didnt hesitate to stop my behaviour.

if one turns around i notice most of the time it can stop the noise,

my mother who is near her 80s has seen the changes people her own age or older, talking loudly before mass,

children and the elderly fall into the same category of not realizing how loud they are, what seems to them as quiet chit chat is really loud whispering to others or just loud all together.

and then i go from quiet prayer to having to tune out listening to the latest surgery or bowel problems one has just gone through, to children not really being monsters but just being children; I cant really blame children 11 an under for their behaviour , i mean by the time one turns 12 common sense should be developed enough to look around an say eh, maybe i should at least be quiet.

I mean what are we supposed to do ? demand that the priest calls everyone out on bad behaviour ? then half the congregation leaves, then what ?

Though our priest after remodeling the cry room to a make shift adoration/chapel really nice by the way, has been spreading the word we are too keep it clean, nothing hanging on the walls, to be silent in adoration , common sense things.

which i can still remeber a woman twice my age at one point in adoration, clipping and primping her finger nails in adoration, bloody blew my mind. why i didnt say anything at that time i dont know, i mean why put someone else in the position of having to embarress you and those around you by calling out ones bad behaviour and then now everyone is uncomfortable and unable to focus.

SO

be it in adoration or during mass, other than getting up and moving is there a polite way to let someone know they are being rude, or loud with out giving someone the stink eye. ?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Ahhhhh yes… daddy getting his belt out and going to town on the kiddos… these were the good ol’ days of “family values”

You mean as opposed to the ‘male figure currently involved with mother paying no attention whatsoever to children and allowing them to behave as they please’ for today’s ‘good ol’ days of (diversity-minded) family (values, relatively speaking?)

Extremes are extremes are extremes. . .

 

[Gordon_Sims]

I’m just curious, Gordon. May I ask your age? I’m in my early 50’s. And I’m trying to figure out if this is a generational problem… or what? Because when I was growing up, in the 1960’s… 1970’s… this type of behavior was not tolerated.

I’m in my late 30’s, so the goofing off and joking at Mass took place in the mid to late 80’s. My parents were a bit stricter when we were younger, but tolerated our behavior as we got older. I don’t know that it was widespread, but I know a good number of our friends would act the same way, especially if we were seated near them.

One thing I’ve dealt with a bit is people who see how I have my kids behave then tell me it’s hypocritical of me to not let them act up, eat candy all throughout Mass, take naps in the pews, etc. because of how I behaved when I was younger. There’s plenty I did when I was younger that wasn’t right, and I see no problem expecting better behavior from my kids. Oddly enough, candy, toys, napping, etc. are never a problem when it’s just me or my wife & I with the kids at Mass. They know how I expect them to behave and they act appropriately. It doesn’t cause them harm, grief, anguish or any other problems. It’s only when we have people with us who expect them to misbehave that we have serious issues.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Monica, I find what you say to be both very helpful and very accurate. The only thing that I would add though is that there needs to be one more thing. . .

While we need to ‘let go’ of our own frustration when it leads us into anger that simply ‘smoulders’. . .we cannot simply ‘offer it up and forget it’, IMO.

The bad behavior is not going to stop if it is simply ignored (despite what some of the child psychologists have been preaching in the last couple of decades.) What we need to do is stop simply ONLY reacting to the problem (because ‘glares’ and ignoring bad behavior as a reaction doesn’t help EITHER). . .and start ACTING on the CAUSE.

So your advice is I think very helpful in so far as it goes. It’s like putting an ointment on a burn. . .it soothes the pain. . .but it doesn’t stop the burn in the first place.

A child who keeps coming in with a sunburn is certainly going to feel better with some Solarcaine applied, cool baths, etc. . .but sending that child out with sunscreen applied, a hat, and calling the child in when the sun is hottest. . .THOSE are the things that will keep the burn from even happening.

I think we are definitely going to be needing people addressing the root of the problem AS WELL AS using strategies like yours as we also deal with the reactions FROM the problem.

 

[cmscms]

If there is one thing I have learnt a long time ago, if EVER I suggest parents be responsible for their children, I will be kicked out of society.

We live in a society that preaches ‘Freedom’ to the point a lot of people don’t take their responsibiliites. And I think that makes it really hard on the parents who do want to teach their kids properly. I wouldn’t be surprised if a lot of parents let their kids act up out of fear that if they discipline their kids, society will take away custody. After all, if other women are telling mom ‘he’s only a kid, let him colour in mass’, mom has no support.

There is a lot of focus on ‘kids are normal for acting up’, but the second half ‘yes, that is why adults need to teach’ has gone to the way side.

 

[Buck_Crosswhite]

I’m not bashful at all about telling kids or even adults to be quiet in Mass. I’ve been known to stand up and tell people several pews behind me to shut up or get out.

 

[MarieVeronica]

I get tired of hearing that children can’t sit quietly for the 50 minutes to 1 hour that mass lasts.

I have been to our local Mennonite church and their children sit quietly for their 1 hour to 1.5 hour service, without toys or drawing or other distractions. If their children can do it, surely other children can sit quietly during church services. It’s all in what parents expect of their children and how the children are taught. If the Mennonites have a child younger than 3 and that child gets fussy, they remove him/her from the church to the cry room or to the outside, and they do it quickly. Children older than 3 simply get “the look” from one of their parents and the undesirable behavior disappears!

I don’t complain at church, I agree that at least they are in church, but I sure wish parents would do more than ignore their children when they display very distracting behavior.
I make sure that I don’t sit near them, it’s a lot easier to ignore them if they are behind you by several pews!

Bingo! This is exactly what I was getting at. Some (certainly not all… as there are some well behaved children at every Mass)… but SOME parents, will allow their children to act up and not do a thing! That’s what these two parents were doing… absolutely nothing… to correct the behavior of the two older boys.

My whole point! Children are only as well behaved as they know parents EXPECT them to be. Thanks all for the replies.

 

[MarieVeronica]

Monica, I find what you say to be both very helpful and very accurate. The only thing that I would add though is that there needs to be one more thing. . .

While we need to ‘let go’ of our own frustration when it leads us into anger that simply ‘smoulders’. . .we cannot simply ‘offer it up and forget it’, IMO.

The bad behavior is not going to stop if it is simply ignored (despite what some of the child psychologists have been preaching in the last couple of decades.) What we need to do is stop simply ONLY reacting to the problem (because ‘glares’ and ignoring bad behavior as a reaction doesn’t help EITHER). . .and start ACTING on the CAUSE.

So your advice is I think very helpful in so far as it goes. It’s like putting an ointment on a burn. . .it soothes the pain. . .but it doesn’t stop the burn in the first place.

A child who keeps coming in with a sunburn is certainly going to feel better with some Solarcaine applied, cool baths, etc. . .but sending that child out with sunscreen applied, a hat, and calling the child in when the sun is hottest. . .THOSE are the things that will keep the burn from even happening.

I think we are definitely going to be needing people addressing the root of the problem AS WELL AS using strategies like yours as we also deal with the reactions FROM the problem.

This is also a really excellent answer. And again, illustrates the point. The parents should have dealt with the cause of the bad behavior. The cause: placing two, immature young boys side by side in the pew. Dad or Mom should have placed them on the outsides… as far from one another as possible. With a whispered… “We’ll talk about this, when we get home”. Which can help prevent any further misbehavior.

I can remember my mother doing that with us kids. Would have solved the problem, beautifully.

 

[MarieVeronica]

May I offer you this, picture the very first Eucharistic celebration, the Apostles around the table at the last supper and among them was a grown man plotting against our Lord and Savior. Judas knew Christ intimately and in-person and heard his human voice with his own ears and felt his human touch yet during the very first most Sacred Holy Mass at the Last Supper he was plotting evil in his heart.

Fast forward 2000 years and we have people at sacred Holy Mass texting, on the phone, wearing immodest clothing, children giggling and fighting…I could make a list miles and miles long.

Dear MarieVeronica I think the challenge that remains to all of us is to enter into the sacredness of the Mass despite the distractions and the sinfullness that surround us. I will use you as my example: from your post I can see that you have a lot of emotional energy focused on the misbehavior of others, how wonderful would it be if you could “tune them out” and instead focus the same degree of emotional energy on what is happening at the altar. I am not pointing fingers at you I totally relate to you I am exactly the same. I find it challenging and sometimes nearly impossible to focus on the Mass with the distractions of those around me, however this would be a victory for Satan. Satan wants me to look away from the altar, Satan wants me to get irritated at Mass, Satan wants me to leave Holy Mass feeling frustrated and unsatisfied!

When you are tempted by frustration offer if up in prayer. Bow your head and pray for those parents that are not disciplining, pray for people giggling and chewing gum, pray pray and pray some more. Hope this helps a little.

Thank you, Monica. I will take your suggestions to heart… and do my best next weekend. The way you phrased your opinion, makes a lot of sense to me. God bless you, hon.

But it really wasn’t so much a matter of my focusing on the “misbehavior of others” (in this case, 2 young boys). Believe me, I’m used to children at Mass. And they don’t “bug me” per say. What bothered me was that the parents took absolutely no action, whatsoever… to correct the bad behavior. And as I said, I heard the mother giggling, too… at one point. Actually encouraging them! That is simply not acceptable!

Children are “the future”. Does this not tend to worry you? Because it surely does worry me. If children are not taught the Sacredness of the Mass… what is to become of future generations of Catholics?