Can someone point me to a rigorous proof as to why homosexuality is wrong?

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This person Pathia has expressed to us pain over a condition that is a terrible cross to bear and all you can say is it would be “cool” if he or she could pass on the gene?

What is wrong with you?

Is this what passes as charity?
I think everyone should understand the concepts expressed in X-men as its relative to many different parts of our curent lives. I think people with intriguing genetic differences are epic. And I dont think there is anything wrong or incorrect with pathia and people lie that just how he/she was born, so more power to them. Accept them for who they are and integrate with them. (Or commit genocide its really a 50/50 thing)

I’m a big fan of everything heroes and i only wish i had a cool genetic trait (ideally alter reality, bending the time space continuum is cool to…) although it won’t be like that.

DO you even undurstand the enormatiy of a single gender species? procreation become extremely easy, and would increase in variety exponentially as more different combinations of genetic code could be had. And evolution is said to be currently hypothesized to happen in a shorter burst of time so within a thousand years it is entirely possible for humanity to change completely…

I’m not passing charity or anything, the person is as the person is can’t change that now so pft not like i really mind. I’d interact with everyone as i would normally. completely baised and based on intelligence and level of comedy and conversation. Not based on thier gender and/or sexual presense that is for far more relegious people htan me to be prejudiced about… I simply love thy nieghbour…
 
Which 'gay" person shoes would you like me to put on? the one that attempted to molest me when I was 11? the two ‘gay’ men that attempted molest me when I was 15? Ernest Rhom? the one who was a friend of my wife that died of aides in 1990?, another that was friend of both my wife and I that died of aides in 1992? the one from my parish who died of aides in 97? Or the one that wants to come to my children’s school and teach that homosexual behavior is normal?

I’ve have made a lot of observations too, I have seen a lot of people crash and burn in the “gay” world. I have always had an open mind, open hand and open heart to others that may be different then me. The statistics back up what I have personally seen. Homosexuality kills, maimes and injures the majority of those that embrace the “lifestyle.” It is part of the ‘culture’ of death. It is not out of hatred I speak out against it, it is out of grief for those that died and are dying and out of fear for the children that will accept the lies that is “ok”. You need a different difinition for love.
I’m sorry those things have happened to you. I now understand why you think the way you do.

Forgive, me, however, for pointing out the obvious fallacy. Just because a handful of X people have acted in Y way doesn’t mean all X people act in Y way, right?
 
Are you asking that I disprove the idea that gay people degrade humanity as a whole, along the same lines as Fredrick Douglas disproved the idea being black means you’re less intelligent?

You’re right about one thing, they’re very similiar ideas.

There is far more to romance than just the sex. Gay people, if they want to live by the Catholic understanding of homosexuality, aren’t allowed to go on dates, kiss, hold hands, cuddle, go through the struggle of breaking up, go through the process of marriage, raise a family (adopted), and - yes - have sexual contact.

But it’s far more than just sex that the Catholic church has said is wrong.
Love is about much more than romance.
 
I think everyone should understand the concepts expressed in X-men as its relative to many different parts of our curent lives. I think people with intriguing genetic differences are epic. And I dont think there is anything wrong or incorrect with pathia and people lie that just how he/she was born, so more power to them. Accept them for who they are and integrate with them. (Or commit genocide its really a 50/50 thing)

I’m a big fan of everything heroes and i only wish i had a cool genetic trait (ideally alter reality, bending the time space continuum is cool to…) although it won’t be like that.

DO you even undurstand the enormatiy of a single gender species? procreation become extremely easy, and would increase in variety exponentially as more different combinations of genetic code could be had. And evolution is said to be currently hypothesized to happen in a shorter burst of time so within a thousand years it is entirely possible for humanity to change completely…

I’m not passing charity or anything, the person is as the person is can’t change that now so pft not like i really mind. I’d interact with everyone as i would normally. completely baised and based on intelligence and level of comedy and conversation. Not based on thier gender and/or sexual presense that is for far more relegious people htan me to be prejudiced about… I simply love thy nieghbour…
X-Men?
Single gender species?
Heroes?
You wish you had a cool genetic trait?

Are you serious?:eek:

I think you may be mistaking Catholic Answers for a Star Trek forum.

Live long and prosper:shrug:
 
X-Men?
Single gender species?
Heroes?
You wish you had a cool genetic trait?

Are you serious?:eek:

I think you may be mistaking Catholic Answers for a Star Trek forum.

Live long and prosper:shrug:
I do believe we are dealing with a youngin’ here who perhaps has read too many comic books and not enough Catechism.
 
I do believe we are dealing with a youngin’ here who perhaps has read too many comic books and not enough Catechism.
Gave me quite the chuckle:D

Time space continum, what fun:thumbsup:

Take me to your leader:hypno:
 
Gay people, if they want to live by the Catholic understanding of homosexuality, aren’t allowed to go on dates, kiss, hold hands, cuddle, go through the struggle of breaking up, go through the process of marriage, raise a family (adopted), and - yes - have sexual contact.
Untrue. A homosexual person can do all of those things, but doing some of them with a person of the same gender is contrary to natural law and, therefore, wrong.

Take marriage, for example. A homosexual man can get married…to a woman. Since there’s more to marriage than just sex, this hardly seems necessarily unreasonable.

– Mark L. Chance.
 
The primary purpose of sex is to reproduce.

There is absolutely no chance for reproduction in sex between two members of the same sex.

Ergo:
Sex between two members of the same sex defeats the primary purpose.

(Yes, some will argue that it is pleasurable, but these are secondary effects that are there to inspire the primary.)
I will demonstrate that just because a given act/behavior is beyond it’s biological purpose, it doesn’t necessarily mean it’s wrong or immoral.

Why?

I can show a whole number of acts, behaviors, and technology that go beyond the biological function of a body part or organ that no one in this forum would find objectionable. I can also show a whole number of acts, behaviors, and technology that go beyond the basic function of a body part or organ that everyone in this forum would find reprehensible. The challenge, then, is to show how those two are different.

Example. Let’s take my classic example, a pair of stylish sunglasses. The function of my nose is to smell and breathe. However, via the wonders of technology, they also provide a great support structure for my cool shades. That’s not part of the basic biological function, but it’s generally considered acceptable nonetheless.

Example. Let’s take another example, this time of something people generally consider to be wrong. Heroine addiction. The biological function of endorphins, it appears, seems to relieve pain and produce a feeling of euphoria. Without the influence of drugs, the human body produces more endorphins in response to strenous physical activity and pain. Heroine and other opiates, however, mimic endorphins. “Over time, however, the brain produces less endorphins on its own and the dose of heroine needed to produce a high increases. When repeatedly flooded with an artificial opiate, the brain eventually stops producing its own opiates, the endorphins. If the articifical opiate is then withdrawn, the brain lacks the normal level of painkilling neurotransmitters. Those who cannot or choose not to tolerate this state may pay an ultimate price - death by overdose.” (p. 207, Exploring Pyschology 7th Edition. David G. Myers.)

Both glasses and heroine addiction take a normal human system (the nose and the neurotransmitter system, respectively) and use it for a purpose other than it’s biological function. Glasses take the nose and turn it into a platform. Heroine abuse takes the endorphin system and turns it into a playground. Both are reaching beyond the biological function of the organ. However, one is considered to be okay and the other gravely immoral.

Why? It’s not because of notions of “natural” and “unnatural”. Sunglasses are clearly artificial. Man-made creations designed to make me look good. The kind I’m wearing right now don’t even have UV protection. They aren’t even shaded that well. They don’t even protect my eyes. They just look cool. My nose wasn’t “designed” to hold up my sunglasses any more than my endocrine system was “designed” to be abused by the poppy plant.

So what’s the real difference? What *really *causes one to be immoral and the other not, if both aren’t “natural”.

One is gravely harmful. One destroys the brain’s ability to produce an important chemical and leads to painful withrawl or death. There is no other option. The other, however, is harmless.

One *causes *harm. The other does not.

Ah-ha! So that’s the real issue here. Harm.

Now let’s turn to homosexuality. Homosexuality does not serve the primary biological function of the reproductive system - reproduction. But does it cause harm? That is what you have to prove. You must demonstrate that homosexuality causes harm to show that it is immoral.

First note. Correlation does not demonstrate causality. Statistics showing that homosexuals are more prone to depression, anxiety, drug addiction, and suicide only demonstrate that there is a correlation. They do not, however, demonstrate causality. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_causation

Second note. Just focusing on anal sex is not sufficient. First of all, female homosexuality can’t have anal sex (well, I suppose they could use some sort of device, but that’s besides the point). Second, not all gay men practice anal sex. Proving that anal sex causes harm only shows that anal sex causes harm. It’s totally possible to have a male homosexual relationship without anal sex.
 
Untrue. A homosexual person can do all of those things, but doing some of them with a person of the same gender is contrary to natural law and, therefore, wrong.

Take marriage, for example. A homosexual man can get married…to a woman. Since there’s more to marriage than just sex, this hardly seems necessarily unreasonable.

– Mark L. Chance.
/facepalm

Yeah, a gay man marrying a straight woman is a really good idea. :rolleyes:

Have you no common sense, man?
 
Are you asking that I disprove the idea that gay people degrade humanity as a whole, along the same lines as Fredrick Douglas disproved the idea being black means you’re less intelligent?
You’re right about one thing, they’re very similiar ideas.
There is far more to romance than just the sex. Gay people, if they want to live by the Catholic understanding of homosexuality, aren’t allowed to go on dates, kiss, hold hands, cuddle, go through the struggle of breaking up, go through the process of marriage, raise a family (adopted), and - yes - have sexual contact.
But it’s far more than just sex that the Catholic church has said is wrong.
Disprove the act, not the person, as a sin.
 
Love is about much more than romance.
Romantic love is a form of love that is restricted from homosexuals, according to Catholicism. Romantic love includes all those things I mentioned.

(Unless you can make them become attracted to the opposite sex, that is.)
 
I will demonstrate that just because a given act/behavior is beyond it’s biological purpose, it doesn’t necessarily mean it’s wrong or immoral.

Why?

I can show a whole number of acts, behaviors, and technology that go beyond the biological function of a body part or organ that no one in this forum would find objectionable. I can also show a whole number of acts, behaviors, and technology that go beyond the basic function of a body part or organ that everyone in this forum would find reprehensible. The challenge, then, is to show how those two are different.

Example. Let’s take my classic example, a pair of stylish sunglasses. The function of my nose is to smell and breathe. However, via the wonders of technology, they also provide a great support structure for my cool shades. That’s not part of the basic biological function, but it’s generally considered acceptable nonetheless.

Example. Let’s take another example, this time of something people generally consider to be wrong. Heroine addiction. The biological function of endorphins, it appears, seems to relieve pain and produce a feeling of euphoria. Without the influence of drugs, the human body produces more endorphins in response to strenous physical activity and pain. Heroine and other opiates, however, mimic endorphins. “Over time, however, the brain produces less endorphins on its own and the dose of heroine needed to produce a high increases. When repeatedly flooded with an artificial opiate, the brain eventually stops producing its own opiates, the endorphins. If the articifical opiate is then withdrawn, the brain lacks the normal level of painkilling neurotransmitters. Those who cannot or choose not to tolerate this state may pay an ultimate price - death by overdose.” (p. 207, Exploring Pyschology 7th Edition. David G. Myers.)

Both glasses and heroine addiction take a normal human system (the nose and the neurotransmitter system, respectively) and use it for a purpose other than it’s biological function. Glasses take the nose and turn it into a platform. Heroine abuse takes the endorphin system and turns it into a playground. Both are reaching beyond the biological function of the organ. However, one is considered to be okay and the other gravely immoral.

Why? It’s not because of notions of “natural” and “unnatural”. Sunglasses are clearly artificial. Man-made creations designed to make me look good. The kind I’m wearing right now don’t even have UV protection. They aren’t even shaded that well. They don’t even protect my eyes. They just look cool. My nose wasn’t “designed” to hold up my sunglasses any more than my endocrine system was “designed” to be abused by the poppy plant.

So what’s the real difference? What *really *causes one to be immoral and the other not, if both aren’t “natural”.

One is gravely harmful. One destroys the brain’s ability to produce an important chemical and leads to painful withrawl or death. There is no other option. The other, however, is harmless.

One *causes *harm. The other does not.

Ah-ha! So that’s the real issue here. Harm.

Now let’s turn to homosexuality. Homosexuality does not serve the primary biological function of the reproductive system - reproduction. But does it cause harm? That is what you have to prove. You must demonstrate that homosexuality causes harm to prove that it is immoral.

First note. Correlation does not demonstrate causality. Statistics showing that homosexuals are more prone to depression, anxiety, drug addiction, and suicide only demonstrate that there is a correlation. They do not, however, demonstrate causality. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_causation

Second note. Just focusing on anal sex is not sufficient. First of all, female homosexuality can’t have anal sex (well, I suppose they could use some sort of device, but that’s besides the point). Second, not all gay men practice anal sex. Proving that anal sex causes harm only shows that anal sex causes harm. It’s totally possible to have a male homosexual relationship without anal sex.
Are you a physicalist? I ask becuase Church teaching on the gift of sexuality is not physicalist. We are body and soul.

If you want to challenge Church teaching it helps you if first state what she actually teaches and not substitute your teaching for Hers.
 
Are you a physicalist? I ask becuase Church teaching on the gift of sexuality is not physicalist. We are body and soul
The OP set the context: “Most of my arguments for why homosexuality stems from Catholic doctrine which uses biblical evidence, however when arguing with atheistics and agnostics this is difficult because they do not agree with scriptures, is their a good secular perspective on this issue?”

I don’t think athiests believe in souls.

(I’ve been cooking up that post for a few days now; it’s a response to the original topic at hand)
 
Romantic love is a form of love that is restricted from homosexuals, according to Catholicism. Romantic love includes all those things I mentioned.
(Unless you can make them become attracted to the opposite sex, that is.)
Romantic love is only one form of love. It is not necessarily the highest because it is based on physical attraction. Agape love is the love to which we are called–the love that lays down its life for another.
Romantic love does not even have to be a starting point. If we talk about marriage, that relationship needs more than romance to survive through time. It needs the the type of love that begins in friendship and grows from there. True friends help one another when they sense something wrong. True love, friendship will not allow the other to continue on a distructive path such as alcoholism or drug addiction. They are there for one another during times of illnesses and difficulty. This type of love is not effected by orientation. Fraternal love is capable of providing support. As mentioned earlier, the over emphasis of sexual relationships in our society has denigrated the reality expressed between two people who see each other as brothers.
If that fraternal love is between members of the opposite sex, how do you know it will not blossom into the romantic love you describe?
Agape love is the type of love that allows one person to lay down his life for another. If we take it to the matter of marriage, there is one form only that offers dignity/equality to both genders because of the gift of life that may come forth naturally. Poligomist relationships, although accepted by differing religions do not have that ability because they subjugate one gender to the other. Only in one relationship does the husband “rise up and call her blessed.”
Men and women are called to different roles, not only socially but physically as well. Science is only now becoming able to explore biologically what all these differences mean, including how the brain is wired. The Theology of the Body, which I look forward to reading addresses more throughly what it means to protect the sacredness of the body and therefore the sacredness of life itself.
 
Have you no common sense, man?
Enough common sense to realize that tossing out sunglasses as an argument against natural law or claiming that a homosexual person isn’t allowed to ever hold hands are both very silly claims to make.

– Mark L. Chance.
 
Romantic love is only one form of love. It is not necessarily the highest because it is based on physical attraction. Agape love is the love to which we are called–the love that lays down its life for another.
Romantic love does not even have to be a starting point. If we talk about marriage, that relationship needs more than romance to survive through time. It needs the the type of love that begins in friendship and grows from there. True friends help one another when they sense something wrong. True love, friendship will not allow the other to continue on a distructive path such as alcoholism or drug addiction. They are there for one another during times of illnesses and difficulty. This type of love is not effected by orientation. Fraternal love is capable of providing support. As mentioned earlier, the over emphasis of sexual relationships in our society has denigrated the reality expressed between two people who see each other as brothers.
If that fraternal love is between members of the opposite sex, how do you know it will not blossom into the romantic love you describe?
Agape love is the type of love that allows one person to lay down his life for another. If we take it to the matter of marriage, there is one form only that offers dignity/equality to both genders because of the gift of life that may come forth naturally. Poligomist relationships, although accepted by differing religions do not have that ability because they subjugate one gender to the other. Only in one relationship does the husband “rise up and call her blessed.”
Men and women are called to different roles, not only socially but physically as well. Science is only now becoming able to explore biologically what all these differences mean, including how the brain is wired. The Theology of the Body, which I look forward to reading addresses more throughly what it means to protect the sacredness of the body and therefore the sacredness of life itself.
The 4 loves - CS Lewis


Eros

Eros (έρως) is love in the sense of ‘being in love’. This is distinct from sexuality, which Lewis calls Venus, although he does spend time discussing sexual activity and its spiritual significance in both a pagan and a Christian sense. He identifies eros as indifferent. This is good because it promotes appreciation of the beloved regardless of any pleasure that can be obtained from them. It can be bad, however, because this blind devotion has been at the root of many of history’s most abominable tragedies. In keeping with his warning that “love begins to be a demon the moment [it] begins to be a god”, he warns against the danger of elevating eros to the status of a god.
 
The 4 loves - CS Lewis


Eros

Eros (έρως) is love in the sense of ‘being in love’. This is distinct from sexuality, which Lewis calls Venus, although he does spend time discussing sexual activity and its spiritual significance in both a pagan and a Christian sense. He identifies eros as indifferent. This is good because it promotes appreciation of the beloved regardless of any pleasure that can be obtained from them. It can be bad, however, because this blind devotion has been at the root of many of history’s most abominable tragedies. In keeping with his warning that “love begins to be a demon the moment [it] begins to be a god”, he warns against the danger of elevating eros to the status of a god.
Thanks. I basically wanted to bring into the discussion the different forms of love. Not every man is attracted physically to every woman. Self discipline is required in order not to succumb to physical attraction that lies outside the bounds of Matrimony.
Rather than argue over proofs, it might be better to read a work such as Theology of the Body which more fully defines why the Church teaches what she teaches.
St. Paul talks about sins of the flesh as sins against the self. They are an abuse (sin) against the person who is actually committing the sin.
 
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