Can someone who believes in OSAS help me?

[Elzee]

linus:

The problem is your whole question is hypothetical, there’s no reality to it. It’s like trying to learn history by reading fantasy novels. Your question, in reality, is rooted in unbelief and a challenge to the “word of the cross.” A couple of Scriptures come to mind which I think are befitting:

“But the word of the cross is to those who are perishing foolishness, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God” (1 Cor. 1:18).

“…but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block, and to Gentiles foolishness” (1 Cor. 1:23).

Unforutnately and sadly, this is not a hypothetical situation. It may be to you because you refuse to believe that anyone who has accepted Jesus as their Savior could get caught up in the world and reject Him, and eventually turn to the life of a non-Christian religion, or to pornography, adultery, even murder. I’m thankful you have not known or encountered someone going through this pain.

I am not ‘challenging the word of the cross’. I am, instead, understanding the glorious* power *of the cross and how our Loving Father will always welcome us back home. Rooted in unbelief? I don’t think so. I think it shows a tremendous amount of belief and faith in the mercy and love of Jesus Christ.

 

[Lillith]

Elzee:

Unforutnately and sadly, this is not a hypothetical situation. It may be to you because you refuse to believe that anyone who has accepted Jesus as their Savior could get caught up in the world and reject Him, and eventually turn to the life of a non-Christian religion, or to pornography, adultery, even murder. I’m thankful you have not known or encountered someone going through this pain.

I am not ‘challenging the word of the cross’. I am, instead, understanding the glorious* power *of the cross and how our Loving Father will always welcome us back home. Rooted in unbelief? I don’t think so. I think it shows a tremendous amount of belief and faith in the mercy and love of Jesus Christ.

He is very lucky indeed not to know the heartache of someone who has purposely turned his back on G-D.

Elzee…have you noticed that no protestants have met your challenge…and answered that very simple scenario. It is elementary, and you can’t even get one person to entertain the idea…bite the bullet…and say no…he was never saved, or yes…he is still saved.

I am surprised at this truly, and I wonder why, and what that says.

 

[Elzee]

*Acts 1:15-26: At this time Peter stood up in the midst of the brethren (a gathering of about one hundred and twenty persons was there together), and said, *
*16 “Brethren, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit foretold by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus. *
17 “For he was counted among us and received his share in this ministry.” …
You should take your own advice. The evidence from the scripture is easily rejected by you because it contradicts most of what you have learne.

Sonseeker - I really appreciate your posts. You’re very knowledgeable and explain your positions well. Thank you.

 

[dennisknapp]

linus:

The problem is your whole question is hypothetical, there’s no reality to it. It’s like trying to learn history by reading fantasy novels. Your question, in reality, is rooted in unbelief and a challenge to the “word of the cross.” A couple of Scriptures come to mind which I think are befitting:

“But the word of the cross is to those who are perishing foolishness, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God” (1 Cor. 1:18).

“…but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block, and to Gentiles foolishness” (1 Cor. 1:23).

Ad hominem attack and completely off track.

If you can’t answer the question please don’t resort of personal attacks.

Peace

 

[linus]

Elzee:

Unforutnately and sadly, this is not a hypothetical situation. It may be to you because you refuse to believe that anyone who has accepted Jesus as their Savior could get caught up in the world and reject Him, and eventually turn to the life of a non-Christian religion, or to pornography, adultery, even murder. I’m thankful you have not known or encountered someone going through this pain.

I am not ‘challenging the word of the cross’. I am, instead, understanding the glorious power of the cross and how our Loving Father will always welcome us back home. Rooted in unbelief? I don’t think so. I think it shows a tremendous amount of belief and faith in the mercy and love of Jesus Christ.

Yes, it is all hypothetical, with an agenda. And where you draw all your confusion from is basing salvation on the behavior of men rather than on what Christ accomplished for all men on the cross. The word of salvation is always objective, i.e., on what Christ accomplished for us - not subjectively rooted in the actions of men (saved or unsaved).

Those who struggle with the Biblical doctrine of salvation have never truly understood it, hence, have no faith in the power of the substitutionary sacrifice of Christ. No, you’re not showing a *“tremendous amount of belief and faith in the mercy of and love of Jesus Christ,” * but instead a lack of faith in the gospel message itself. You’re claiming that based on your behavior God will save you, by your behavior He will again condemn you, and by your repentant behavior He will eventually “welcome you back.” Such is not the message of the cross.

What do you think Paul meant when He said in 1 Cor. 1:23, “but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block, and to Gentiles foolishness.” Do you think he just meant the historical fact of it? The simple historical fact of Christ crucified would hardly be a stumbling block to Jews and Gentiles. It’s what God accomplished through the cross for all mankind that both secular and religious men stumble over. To the secular and religious divine, sovereign grace is repulsive and the eternal realities procured by the cross are foolishness.

The Bible teaches that there are riches of divine (sovereign) grace that are bestowed on the believer at the time of true faith in Christ. They are sovereignly bestowed and cannot be reversed since it is not the believer who provides them nor maintains them. They are divine provisions according to the Father’s riches in Christ Jesus: The true believer is completely and perfectly redeemed by the blood of Christ (Eph. 1:7; 1 Pet. 1:17-19); completely and perfectly *reconciled * to God (1 Cor. 5:18; Col. 1:22); related to God through propitiation (1 Jn. 2:2); *forgiven * of ALL sins, past, present and future (Col. 2:13-14; Eph. 1:7; 4:32; created a new creature (creation) in Christ, the true believer’s new Federal Head (Col. 2:12; 2 Cor. 5:17); and born again (1 Pet. 1:3). These are but a few.

People stumble over sovereign grace and the eternal security the true believer has in Christ because they fail to understand the cross of Christ. Nor can they understand it because the Biblical message of the cross is foolishness to them.

 

[linus]

Lillith:

This scenario is far from “hypothetical” and is very common. I am glad that you don’t personally know anyone who has turned away from God after being saved, that means that you don’t experience the heartache that family members have. There are people in this world, believe it or not, who turn from God purposely, out of anger for instance, because their mother was taken from them (example of someone I know)

I’ve personally known several people like you describe above. But that is not what the doctrine of salvation and eternal security is based on. These doctrines must be understood through Divine (Biblical) revelation, not the subjective experiences and personal judgments of men.

 

[dennisknapp]

linus:

Yes, it is all hypothetical, with an agenda. And where you draw all your confusion from is basing salvation on the behavior of men rather than on what Christ accomplished for all men on the cross. The word of salvation is always objective, i.e., on what Christ accomplished for us - not subjectively rooted in the actions of men (saved or unsaved).

Those who struggle with the Biblical doctrine of salvation have never truly understood it, hence, have no faith in the power of the substitutionary sacrifice of Christ. No, you’re not showing a *“tremendous amount of belief and faith in the mercy of and love of Jesus Christ,” *but instead a lack of faith in the gospel message itself. You’re claiming that based on your behavior God will save you, by your behavior He will again condemn you, and by your repentant behavior He will eventually “welcome you back.” Such is not the message of the cross.

What do you think Paul meant when He said in 1 Cor. 1:23, “but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block, and to Gentiles foolishness.” Do you think he just meant the historical fact of it? The simple historical fact of Christ crucified would hardly be a stumbling block to Jews and Gentiles. It’s what God accomplished through the cross for all mankind that both secular and religious men stumble over. To the secular and religious divine, sovereign grace is repulsive and the eternal realities procured by the cross are foolishness.

The Bible teaches that there are riches of divine (sovereign) grace that are bestowed on the believer at the time of true faith in Christ. They are sovereignly bestowed and cannot be reversed since it is not the believer who provides them nor maintains them. They are divine provisions according to the Father’s riches in Christ Jesus: The true believer is completely and perfectly redeemed by the blood of Christ (Eph. 1:7; 1 Pet. 1:17-19); completely and perfectly *reconciled *to God (1 Cor. 5:18; Col. 1:22); related to God through propitiation (1 Jn. 2:2); *forgiven *of ALL sins, past, present and future (Col. 2:13-14; Eph. 1:7; 4:32; created a new creature (creation) in Christ, the true believer’s new Federal Head (Col. 2:12; 2 Cor. 5:17); and born again (1 Pet. 1:3). These are but a few.

People stumble over sovereign grace and the eternal security the true believer has in Christ because they fail to understand the cross of Christ. Nor can they understand it because the Biblical message of the cross is foolishness to them.

I do not question God’s faithfulness, but my own faithfulness, and yours and that of everyone else.

Only God can foresee all ends, not you or me.

OSAS says nothing of running the race or fighting the good fight.

How is Matt. 24 dealt with in the OSAS model? In this parable did not Christ send people to hell because of what they did or did not do the least of the brethren? Yes.

I know this is hard to understand, for the Bible says,

“But the word of the cross is to those who are perishing foolishness, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God” (1 Cor. 1:18).

“…but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block, and to Gentiles foolishness” (1 Cor. 1:23).

Peace

 

[Matt16_18]

linus:

I’ve personally known several people like you describe above. But that is not what the doctrine of salvation and eternal security is based on. These doctrines must be understood through Divine (Biblical) revelation, not the subjective experiences and personal judgments of men.

Please show us where the words “eternal security” are written in the Bible!

Linus, could you please answer a couple of questions? I would like to know if you believe in the antinomian version of OSAS or the Calvinist version of OSAS.

Do you believe that you have free will? Do you believe that a Christian can choose to be disobedient to God?

Do you believe that God is the cause of all that is evil, sick and depraved?

 

[Mickey]

linus:

No, you’re not showing a *“tremendous amount of belief and faith in the mercy of and love of Jesus Christ,” *but instead a lack of faith in the gospel message itself. You’re claiming that based on your behavior God will save you, by your behavior He will again condemn you, and by your repentant behavior He will eventually “welcome you back.” Such is not the message of the cross.

Are you making a judgement call here linus on what you think some people believe? Are you claiming to know their heart? “Salvation by works” is one of the most common stereotypes that protestants have in regards to Catholics. Catholics believe they are saved by grace, through faith and our good and Holy works are the fruit of that faith. We believe that we were saved yesterday, are being saved today, and will be saved tomorrow. The question is: “can we fall from grace”? We are called to run the race. That race doesn’t end with the sinner’s prayer. Yes, grace is a free gift. And when we receive it, we must become living witnesses for Christ, who was crucified for our sins.

 

[steve_b]

Mickey:

Are you making a judgement call here linus on what you think some people believe? Are you claiming to know their heart? “Salvation by works” is one of the most common stereotypes that protestants have in regards to Catholics. Catholics believe they are saved by grace, through faith and our good and Holy works are the fruit of that faith.

True. Grace comes first. Then comes faith but not faith “alone” and good works, but not good works “alone”. .

James 2:24
You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

---

“Asking whether you are saved by faith or works is like asking which blade on the scissors does the cutting. It’s like trying to saw Jesus into the man half and the God half. It’s like looking for a coin with one side. It’s like trying to get water by splitting hydrogen and oxygen apart. It’s like asking whether the brain or the heart keeps you alive. Faith without works is dead.”

Mickey:

That race doesn’t end with the sinner’s prayer

.

True again. In fact John says non deadly (venial) sins can be prayed about and God forgives those sins. But the deadly (mortal) sins he says shouldn’t be prayed about for forgiveness. 1 Jn 5:16

The scriptural remedy for mortal sin is the sacrament of reconcilliation.

 

[iwonder]

Perhaps someone more knowledgeable on this forum than I could explain the idea of “final perseverence” here.

 

[steve_b]

linus:

Those who struggle with the Biblical doctrine of salvation have never truly understood it, hence, have no faith in the power of the substitutionary sacrifice of Christ. No, you’re not showing a *“tremendous amount of belief and faith in the mercy of and love of Jesus Christ,” *but instead a lack of faith in the gospel message itself. **You’re claiming that based on your behavior God will save you, by your behavior He will again condemn you, and by your repentant behavior He will eventually “welcome you back.” Such is not the message of the cross. **

Check out what Jesus says below about how important our bahavior is to our eternal destination.

linus:

The true believer is completely and perfectly redeemed by the blood of Christ (Eph. 1:7; 1 Pet. 1:17-19); completely and perfectly *reconciled *to God (1 Cor. 5:18; Col. 1:22); related to God through propitiation (1 Jn. 2:2); *forgiven *of ALL sins, past, present and future (Col. 2:13-14; Eph. 1:7; 4:32; created a new creature (creation) in Christ, the true believer’s new Federal Head (Col. 2:12; 2 Cor. 5:17); and born again (1 Pet. 1:3). These are but a few.

you present summary statements and absolutize them to the exclusion of the context as if the context is not important, only the summary statement. Neither Jesus nor the apostles taught outside of context.

**Matthew 7:21-23 **

21"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but** only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven**. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Who are evil doers? Here is a start Eph 5:3-5, Gal 5:19-21, Col 3:5-

Almost 60% of marriages end in divorce. One who remarries after divorce commits adultry. And scripture says adulterers won’t inherit heaven. So my friend, ones behavior does count. Your commentary above is dead wrong.

Same with fornicators, and people who cause factions and division in the body of Christ, they won’t inherit heaven. So you see, what we do, (our behavior) DOES have an effect on our eternal destiny. Notice that even evil doers can cast out demons and work miracles in Christs name. But their evil doings landed them in hell. Our deeds count.

BTW, 1 Jn 5:16. Read that passage carefully. Sins that don’t lead to death (Catholics call these venial sins) we can pray and receive forgiveness. What Protestants call a sinners prayer. But there are sins like the following that lead to death, because scripture says they keep one from heaven such as. Eph 5:3-5, Gal 5:19-21, Col 3:5- and as you can see from 1 John 5:16, sins that lead to death (Catholics call these mortal sins) shouldn’t be prayed about. So In that case the sinners prayer doesn’t work. Read over the list of sins in those passages. Have you committed any of them in the past or present? Do you know anybody who has? Don’t rely on the sinners prayer. Sacramental confession is the scriptural remedy for them, not the sinners prayer.

linus:

People stumble over sovereign grace and the eternal security the true believer has in Christ because they fail to understand the cross of Christ. Nor can they understand it because the Biblical message of the cross is foolishness to them.

No, People stumble over the impact of sin in their lives, and will look for any excuse to avoid thinking about the impact of sin on their eternal destination.

 

[Elzee]

linus:

Yes, it is all hypothetical, with an agenda.

… No, you’re not showing a *“tremendous amount of belief and faith in the mercy of and love of Jesus Christ,” * but instead a lack of faith in the gospel message itself.

People stumble over sovereign grace and the eternal security the true believer has in Christ because they fail to understand the cross of Christ. Nor can they understand it because the Biblical message of the cross is foolishness to them.

In regard to what I cut/pasted above:

1. I and others have addressed your opinion on whether this is hypothetical or not, so, no need to revisit that one. Again, I’m thankful that in your world things like this do not happen, but it saddens me that a lot of people are missing out on your prayers because you do not believe it happens. *‘When one member suffers, we all suffer…’.

1. I had no agenda. Sonseeker responded early on that he thought the answers I provided were biased. I addressed this already. I’ll let you go back and read my response to him - no need to rewrite it. You can believe it or not, that is your choice.
   If you want to strip my question down to bare-bones and remove the multiple choice please feel free to do so. The reason for my post was to understand OSAS.
2. Now, about me showing a lack of faith in the gospel message and the message of the cross being foolishness to me. It sounds like your stance is since I don’t agree with your interpretation of the gospel message I have a lack of faith in that message. Interesting. If you can prove that your understanding and interpretation of the message is infallible, I’ll give you that one. Otherwise, it appears we have a difference of opinion on my faith in Jesus Christ. You’re entitled to your opinion.

 

[linus]

Matt16_18:

The Christian is like Adam before the Fall, he is not in bondage to sin, and he can choose to be either obedient or disobedient to God’s will. If the Christian chooses to commit mortal sin, he will lose the eternal life abiding in him and become spiritually dead, just as Adam became spiritually dead by choosing disobedience to God.

This is an unbiblical, erroneous statement. There’s no such teaching in the Bible. In fact, the Bible reveals that just the opposite occurs. When a descendant of Adam, born spiritually dead in him, turns from unbelief to belief in the Person and work of Jesus Christ on the cross on his behalf, he is “born again” and placed in Jesus Christ, the “Last Adam,” this being the believer’s new identity. A believer is not simply put back into a state of innocence like Adam before the fall, but he is now “in Christ” - made righteous (read Rom. 5:12-21). This is what the Apostle Paul means when he says “Therefore if any man is in Christ he is a new creature; the old things passed away (i.e. all who he was in Adam); behold new things have come” (i.e., in Christ; 2 Cor. 5:17).

There is only one man in history who ever sinned and died both spiritually and physically. This was Adam of the Garden of Eden, the progenitor of the whole human race (excluding the “Last Adam,” Jesus Christ). ALL of Adam’s posterity (like him) are born spiritually dead and ALL (like him) are destined to die physically.

But the Son came came into this world to become the “second man” the “Last Adam,” not just a living soul, like Adam, but a “life-giving spirit” (1 Cor. 15:44-45). And contrasting the natural man (in Adam) with the spiritual man (in Christ), in reference to the future resurrection unto glory, the Apostle writes, “For as in Adam ALL die, so also in Christ ALL shall be made alive” (1 Cor. 15:22).

Just as it is impossible for a man to be separated by identity with Adam, so it is impossible for the true believer to be separated from Christ. A man is either in Adam, made a sinner (Rom. 5:19), born into this world spiritually dead, under divine judgment and condemnation (Rom. 5:16), or he is in Christ, through faith, in whom he has received the abundance of grace, the gift of righteousness (Rom. 5:17), the forgiveness of ALL sins (Acts 26:18), being justified in Him as a free gift (Rom. 5:18; cf. Rom. 3:23-24).

The Son of God didn’t incarnate into this world as the “Last Adam” simply to put those who believe in Him back into the precarious position of Adam before the fall. God forbid!! But the Scriptures clearly reveal that all true believers are His inheritance, made righteous in Him and giftwise, forever justified. And as the Apostle Paul emphatically states, “the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable” (Rom. 11:29). Once a believer is “in Christ” he is no longer “in Adam.” He has been bought (redeemed) with the price of His shed blood (1 Cor. 6:20; 7:23; cf. Rev. 1:5; 5:9) and given a whole new eternal identity.

Those who believe and teach that true believers can lose their salvation have absolutely no idea who Christ is, what He came to accomplish as the “Last Adam,” or what God’s written Word reveals concerning the true believer’s new identity “in Christ.”

 

[linus]

Mickey:

Are you making a judgement call here linus on what you think some people believe? Are you claiming to know their heart? “Salvation by works” is one of the most common stereotypes that protestants have in regards to Catholics. Catholics believe they are saved by grace, through faith and our good and Holy works are the fruit of that faith. We believe that we were saved yesterday, are being saved today, and will be saved tomorrow. The question is: “can we fall from grace”? We are called to run the race. That race doesn’t end with the sinner’s prayer. Yes, grace is a free gift. And when we receive it, we must become living witnesses for Christ, who was crucified for our sins.

I said nothing about “Catholics.” I did say the “secular” and the “religious.” The secular being atheists and agnostics, and the “religious” can include Catholics, Protestants and all religions of this world.

Tell me, on what basis were you saved yesterday? On what basis are you being saved today? And on what basis will you be saved tomorrow? On what basis will your future salvation be judged?

The phrase,* “fall from grace” * is used only once in Scripture: Gal. 5:4. In context it has nothing to do with an individual losing his salvation, but departing from Paul’s gospel of grace and adopting a false gospel of self-works (cf. Gal. 1:6-10). Anyone who thinks he is justified before God by the principle of law (i.e., self-works) has severed himself from Christ, he has “fallen from grace.” That is, he no longer walks by faith in what Christ has forever accomplished on the cross for him, but he has been deceived by false teachers, seeking the approval of God through his own meritorious works instead of those of Christ alone.
Yes, all true believers, like Paul, are called to run the race. But they are to run according to their “calling.”

*“I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, entreat you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called…” * (Eph. 4:1).

*“Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, or of me His prisoner; but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God, who has saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity…” * (2 Tim. 1:8-9; cf. Titus 3:4-7).

There’s no threat of losing the gift of salvation in these admonitions (see Rom. 11:29). But encouraging those saved by grace to walk worthy of the calling with which they had been called into salvation. In other words, walk as who they are now in Christ. Paul didn’t “fight the fight” in order to keep his salvation, but because he already was, and was called into ministry by Christ Himself. His works will be appraised at the future judgment seat of Christ (1 Cor. 5:10; 1 Cor. 3:8-15), and like all true believers, he will either receive reward or lose it. But his salvation will not be in question at this judgment, because salvation is not based at all on his works (ever!), but faith in the work of Another, Jesus Christ the righteous (Eph. 2:8-10).

I have noticed that Catholics on this forum use the phrase “fall from grace” totally out of context and therefore inappropriately.

I judge no one’s heart, but I must judge their doctrine according to the written Word of God as I see it. I too must stand before the judgment seat of Christ. Not for my salvation, mind you, but my works are what will be appraised. I cannot lose my salvation because of my works (or lack thereof) since salvation is never based on works, but by grace through faith: “But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace” (Rom. 11:6).

Yes, grace is a free gift.

No Mickey, “grace” is not the free gift. Salvation is! Grace is the divine means by which the gift of salvation is bestowed on the believer (see Eph. 2:8-9). “Grace” means “favor” in view of Christ’s work on our behalf.

 

[dennisknapp]

linus:

I said nothing about “Catholics.” I did say the “secular” and the “religious.” The secular being atheists and agnostics, and the “religious” can include Catholics, Protestants and all religions of this world.

Tell me, on what basis were you saved yesterday? On what basis are you being saved today? And on what basis will you be saved tomorrow? On what basis will your future salvation be judged?

The phrase,* “fall from grace” *is used only once in Scripture: Gal. 5:4. In context it has nothing to do with an individual losing his salvation, but departing from Paul’s gospel of grace and adopting a false gospel of self-works (cf. Gal. 1:6-10). Anyone who thinks he is justified before God by the principle of law (i.e., self-works) has severed himself from Christ, he has “fallen from grace.” That is, he no longer walks by faith in what Christ has forever accomplished on the cross for him, but he has been deceived by false teachers, seeking the approval of God through his own meritorious works instead of those of Christ alone.
Yes, all true believers, like Paul, are called to run the race. But they are to run according to their “calling.”

*“I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, entreat you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called…” *(Eph. 4:1).

*“Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, or of me His prisoner; but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God, who has saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity…” *(2 Tim. 1:8-9; cf. Titus 3:4-7).

There’s no threat of losing the gift of salvation in these admonitions (see Rom. 11:29). But encouraging those saved by grace to walk worthy of the calling with which they had been called into salvation. In other words, walk as who they are now in Christ. Paul didn’t “fight the fight” in order to keep his salvation, but because he already was, and was called into ministry by Christ Himself. His works will be appraised at the future judgment seat of Christ (1 Cor. 5:10; 1 Cor. 3:8-15), and like all true believers, he will either receive reward or lose it. But his salvation will not be in question at this judgment, because salvation is not based at all on his works (ever!), but faith in the work of Another, Jesus Christ the righteous (Eph. 2:8-10).

I have noticed that Catholics on this forum use the phrase “fall from grace” totally out of context and therefore inappropriately.

I judge no one’s heart, but I must judge their doctrine according to the written Word of God as I see it. I too must stand before the judgment seat of Christ. Not for my salvation, mind you, but my works are what will be appraised. I cannot lose my salvation because of my works (or lack thereof) since salvation is never based on works, but by grace through faith: “But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace” (Rom. 11:6).No Mickey, “grace” is not the free gift. Salvation is! Grace is the divine means by which the gift of salvation is bestowed on the believer (see Eph. 2:8-9). “Grace” means “favor” in view of Christ’s work on our behalf.

I know it is hard to understand the true Gospel as taught by the Catholic Church, for the Bible says,

“But the word of the cross is to those who are perishing foolishness, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God” (1 Cor. 1:18).

“…but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block, and to Gentiles foolishness” (1 Cor. 1:23).

Peace

 

[Matt16_18]

linus:

A believer is not simply put back into a state of innocence like Adam before the fall

Whoa! Don’t put words in my mouth so that you can attack a straw man.

I never said that the Christian has recovered the gift of holy innocence that was possessed by Adam before the Fall. I said that the Christian is like Adam because he too is free from the bondage to sin. If you don’t believe that a Christian is freed from the bondage to sin, then you are not yet a Christian.

Jesus then said to the Jews who had believed in him, “If you continue in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”

They answered him, “We are descendants of Abraham, and have never been in bondage to any one. How is it that you say, `You will be made free’?”

Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, every one who commits sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not continue in the house for ever; the son continues for ever. So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.
John 8:31-36

---

… you he made alive, when you were dead through the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience. Among these we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, following the desires of body and mind, and so we were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ …
Eph 2:1-5

There is only one man in history who ever sinned and died both spiritually and physically.

Where did you ever get that idea? A man that is born again can choose to commit mortal sin, and that mortal sin causes him to become spiritually dead once again.

There is sin which is mortal … there is sin which is not mortal.
1John 5:16-17 RSV

same verses from the KJV:

There is a sin unto death … there is a sin not unto death.
1John 5:16-17 KJV

Just as it is impossible for a man to be separated by identity with Adam, so it is impossible for the true believer to be separated from Christ.

You simply don’t understand what scriptures teach if this is what you believe.

Jesus gave us the story of the prodigal son to teach us that mortal sin brings spiritual death. It is amazing to me how OSAS Protestants blithely dismiss the fact the father of the prodigal son told both the servants and the older brother “my son was dead, and is alive again”.

Alive again. Obviously the prodigal son had to be spiritually alive before he died in his sins. The prodigal son’s repentance for his mortal sins made him spiritually alive again.

Jesus told us that many Christians would fall away. Only a Christian can commit the mortal sin of apostasy. Please explain how could a person who is not a Christian could ever commit the sin of apostasy!

---

I note that you have avoided answering my original questions to you. Let me ask you again:

Do you believe that you have free will? Do you believe that a Christian can choose to be disobedient to God?

Do you believe that God is the cause of all that is evil, sick and depraved?

 

[Mickey]

linus:

I judge no one’s heart, but I must judge their doctrine according to the written Word of God as I see it.

As you see it. And if you got it wrong–does that make you a false teacher? That’s fairly bold to say that your interpretations are more accurate than 2000 years of witnesses and martyrs going back to Jesus Christ Himself! As you wish.

linus:

No Mickey, “grace” is not the free gift. Salvation is! Grace is the divine means by which the gift of salvation is bestowed on the believer (see Eph. 2:8-9). “Grace” means “favor” in view of Christ’s work on our behalf.

Ya got me a bit confused linus. If grace is not freely given, are you saying that we have to earn it? We are saved by grace. If grace is not free, how could salvation be free?

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Matt:

Vary well explained;

If one didn’t notice the use of words such as heresy and hardcore, one might think that you were actually teaching the doctrine. the antinomian version is dangerous because it essentially says that people who have been “Once Saved” are “Still Saved” NO Matter what they do or whether they repent and try to bring their lives into conformity with God’s law.

I’ve seen people who committed adultery and fornication, and did not repent, who believed that they wewre still going to heaven because of this pernicious doctrine.

Matt16_18:

There are two versions of OSAS – the Calvinist version, and the antinomian version. The answer that you get from a hardcore OSAS believer depends on which version of this heresy that person clings to.

The Baptists typically believe in the antinomian version of OSAS. That is, they believe that once a man gets “saved”, that there is no conceivable sin that a “saved” man could commit that would lead to his damnation. Thus, the antinomian heretic would answer that it doesn’t matter that the “saved” boy has backslid as an adult and become an unrepentant atheist, New Ager, Satanist or whatever. There is NO sin that can make the “saved” boy lose his salvation, and that includes the sin of unrepentant apostasy.

The believer in Calvinist-OSAS heresy will answer differently than the typical antinomian Baptist. The hypothetical person in your scenario only thought he was a Christian when he was fifteen years old, but he was really a member of the “damned but don’t know it” crowd. The problem with belief in Calvinist-OSAS (besides believing in a lie) is that it often leads to “salvation anxiety”. Even if I think that I am one of the elect, how can I really, really, REALLY be sure that I am not one of the damned-but-don’t-know-it crowd?

And, you are absolutely correct about the Salvation anxiety of the second group.
This second group more than the first relies on feelings for their asurance of Salvation, and feelings just don’t cut it when the Nazis have closed the door to the “Hell-House” as Mengele did to St. Maximillian Kolbe.

Fr, Keating’s E-letter referenced earlier in this Thread bears repeating:

*If our faith were proved by “fif,” then those saints who underwent a dark night of the soul–I have in mind such luminaries as John of the Cross and Teresa of Avila–could not be said to have accepted the faith as true. For substantial periods they had the opposite of a “burning in the bosom,” but they never chucked the faith because, despite the lack of emotional highs, they knew it to be true because their minds told them so.

All Catholics need to remember that the virtue of faith has to do with the mind, not with the emotions.*

catholic.com/newsletters/kke_041123.asp

It is much better to work out one’s salvation with fear and trambling, secure in the knowledge that God loves you and that He won’t give up on you even when you reject Him again and again than it is to give in to that false doctrine above.

Blessed are they who act to save God’s Little Ones. Michael

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Matt16_18:

Mortal sin is the desolating abomination that destroys the temple.Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you? If any one destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him. For God’s temple is holy, and that temple you are.

1Cor. 3:16-17

When a Christian chooses to commit mortal sin, he brings the desolating abomination into his temple. Mortal sin makes the temple desolate, i.e. uninhabited, and eternal life no longer abides in that temple.

That’s quite a connection to make - I wish I had thought of it Somewhere I have a post of yours to look at… ​

John teaches that hatred and murder are mortal sins:He who does not love abides in death. Any one who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

1John 3:14-15

Obviously John is not teaching that if a Christian hates another brother, that this sin is going to cause the Christian filled with hatred his *physical *death. The mortal sin of hatred brings spiritual death, because that Christian that hates has no eternal life abiding in him.

Since God is Love, he can’t, really…​

Traditional Ang:

And, you are absolutely correct about the Salvation anxiety of the second group.
This second group more than the first relies on feelings for their asurance of Salvation, and feelings just don’t cut it when the Nazis have closed the door to the “Hell-House” as Mengele did to St. Maximillian Kolbe.

Just one detail - Calvinist OSAS has nothing to do with feelings if by this one means that OSAS is founded in feelings - OSAS rests on one foundation, the promises, faithfulness, and stability of God. Not on man, not on our feelings.​

At the same time, it would be silly for anyone to suggest that feelings should be trampled on, or ignored: they are part of our make-up as human beings. But they are not the foundation for believing in God’s promises. Feelings, like reason, and no less or more so, need to be healed by Christ - yet neither are useless or trash; they are faulty, but God is not: and that is what matters. God is great, though man is dust and ashes . OSA is no more irreconcilable with the Shoah, than believe in Providence is, or in the Love of God. If the Shoah is a problem for OSAS - so is it for believing that God is Love. So is any sin. IOW - it is not ##