Can someone who believes in OSAS help me?

[Gottle_of_Geer]

sonseeker:

Phil, scripture does teach. The writer of Hebrews tells us that word of God is living and active…you are smooth talker, and smooth talkers are a dime a dozen. Believe what you will; I have neither the interest, nor the ability to pry you away from your beliefs.

How about some such proposition as: “Christ the Teacher speaks in the midst of His Church, *by *His Spirit, to teach man through Scripture” ?​

Given that we need the Spirit of Christ to understand the Book of Christ, and cannot put the Book above Christ - maybe such idea would do justice to the fact that the Bible is a dynamic Book, a powerful Book, a living Book

Both Catholics and Reformed believe that He is a Divine Teacher. I think a great many of our disputes are about how He does so. ##

 

[Traditional_Ang]

linus:

Tell me, on what basis were you saved yesterday? On what basis are you being saved today? And on what basis will you be saved tomorrow? On what basis will your future salvation be judged?

Linus:

Hopefully, the same as you. The Grace of God eminating from the Cross of Christ Jesus coming to us in the Sacraments found in the Church that he himself established on this earth.

linus:

The phrase,* “fall from grace” * is used only once in Scripture: Gal. 5:4. In context it has nothing to do with an individual losing his salvation, but departing from Paul’s gospel of grace and adopting a false gospel of self-works (cf. Gal. 1:6-10). Anyone who thinks he is justified before God by the principle of law (i.e., self-works) has severed himself from Christ, he has “fallen from grace.” That is, he no longer walks by faith in what Christ has forever accomplished on the cross for him, but he has been deceived by false teachers, seeking the approval of God through his own meritorious works instead of those of Christ alone.
Yes, all true believers, like Paul, are called to run the race. But they are to run according to their “calling.”

*“I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, entreat you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called…” * (Eph. 4:1).

*“Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, or of me His prisoner; but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God, who has saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity…” * (2 Tim. 1:8-9; cf. Titus 3:4-7).

There’s no threat of losing the gift of salvation in these admonitions (see Rom. 11:29). But encouraging those saved by grace to walk worthy of the calling with which they had been called into salvation. In other words, walk as who they are now in Christ. Paul didn’t “fight the fight” in order to keep his salvation, but because he already was, and was called into ministry by Christ Himself. His works will be appraised at the future judgment seat of Christ (1 Cor. 5:10; 1 Cor. 3:8-15), and like all true believers, he will either receive reward or lose it. But his salvation will not be in question at this judgment, because salvation is not based at all on his works (ever!), but faith in the work of Another, Jesus Christ the righteous (Eph. 2:8-10).

I have noticed that Catholics on this forum use the phrase “fall from grace” totally out of context and therefore inappropriately.

That maybe so, but that doesn’t change the fact that in the one passage you cited, St. Paul cited eternally life in Christ Jesus as “the Crown of Glory to be won”. Theat doesn’t change the fact that St. Paul refered to working his “own salvation out in fear and trembling”.

It might help if you know that St. Paul knew what he was refering to when he used the word we usually translate as “Works”. I have this from a reliable RABINNICAL source. The term that St. Paul used, “Works Of the Law”, actually encompassed ceremonial acts such as Circumcision, Shabbat Observance and the Temple Sacrifices and not the normal acts of decency, temperence and charity which we are all called to.

St. Paul never intended for the reader to discard those, He only wished that people would do away with the specific Rabinnical entanglements that were limiting their ability to dedicate their lives to Christ and to His Church.

And, make NO mistake St. Paul WAS NOT refering to the need to believers to assemble for the Eucharistic celebrations on the first day of the week or to the need for believers to engage in acts of Charity and Mercy towards each other and towards those in need as described by our lord in Matt 25.

linus:

I judge no one’s heart, but I must judge their doctrine according to the written Word of God as I see it. I too must stand before the judgment seat of Christ. Not for my salvation, mind you, but my works are what will be appraised. I cannot lose my salvation because of my works (or lack thereof) since salvation is never based on works, but by grace through faith: “But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace” (Rom. 11:6).No Mickey, “grace” is not the free gift. Salvation is! Grace is the divine means by which the gift of salvation is bestowed on the believer (see Eph. 2:8-9). “Grace” means “favor” in view of Christ’s work on our behalf.

Linus, see Matt 25 for what our Lord says about what’ll be in the air when we stand before the judgement Throne.

Your definition of “Grace” is far too limited and is one that the Authors of the Bible and the Church Fathers simply would not have recognized.

According to them, “Grace” is far more than just “Favor”. Among other things, Grace also has to do with the action of the Holy Spirit in and through us and the power to live Godly and Christian lives. Grace also has to do with the covering over of our sins so that, as we pray, the Father sees Jesus and not our sinful selves.

They saw Grace as the free gift of God in Christ Jesus our Lord who through that gave us life and the ability to live it fully and abundantly.

This is a LOT more than is included in your definition.

Blessed are they who act to save God’s Little Ones. Michael

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Gottle of Geer:
Absolutely not! You are quite right, and that is what the idea of “total depravity” does not mean. Unregenerate men are capable of extraordinary acts of kindness, generosity, bravery, etc. But if they reject Christ, what are those acts worth?

TY - that is the point I thought you were making ​

The one will receive a lesser punishment than the other; however, for me, eternal condemnation is eternal condemnation.

May I say to you that I thoroughly enjoy your posts. You are kind, and thoughtful, much more so than I am, much to my chagrin. And, you are certainly brighter than I.

This free will argument is close to my heart, I cannot escape what the Word says:

Daniel 4:35: “All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, But He does according to His will in the host of heaven And among the inhabitants of earth; And no one can ward off His hand Or say to Him, ‘What have You done?’”

Psalm 39:5: “Behold, You have made my days as handbreadths, And my lifetime as nothing in Your sight; Surely every man at his best is a mere breath.

Psalm 144:4: Man is like a mere breath; His days are like a passing shadow.

Psalm 89:47: Remember what my span of life is; For what vanity You have created all the sons of men!

Of ourselves we are less than atoms - yet our nothingness is endowed with a genuine freedom of will; but not with autonomy (that would be ridiculous ).​

You probably know that Pascal refers to man as “a thinking reed” ##

We are all, far too often, full of ourselves. Shakespeare understood:

All the world’s a stage
And all the men and women merely players:
They have their exits and their entrances;
And one man in his time plays many parts,
His acts being seven ages. At first the infant,
Mewling and puking in the nurse’s arms.
Then the whining school-boy, with his satchel
And shining morning face, creeping like snail
Unwillingly to school. And then the lover,
Sighing like furnace, with a woeful ballad
Made to his mistress’ eyebrow. Then a soldier,
Full of strange oaths, and bearded like the pard,
Jealous in honor, sudden and quick in quarrel,
Seeking the bubble reputation
Even in the cannon’s mouth. And then the justice,
In fair round belly with good capon lined,
With eyes severe and beard of formal cut,
Full of wise saws and modern instances;
And so he plays his part. The sixth age shifts
Into the lean and slippered pantaloon,
With spectacles on nose and pouch on side,
His youthful hose, well saved, a world too wide
For his shrunk shank; and his big manly voice,
Turning again toward childish treble, pipes
And whistles in his sound. Last scene of all,
That ends this strange eventful history,
Is second childishness and mere oblivion,
Sans teeth, sans eyes, sans taste, sans every thing.

We live by His will, and on His time, eh?

Thank you, Gottle, your posts are a blessing

Bill

Yours also - keep them coming​

 

[Traditional_Ang]

## Just one detail - Calvinist OSAS has nothing to do with feelings if by this one means that OSAS is founded in feelings - OSAS rests on one foundation, the promises, faithfulness, and stability of God. Not on man, not on our feelings.

At the same time, it would be silly for anyone to suggest that feelings should be trampled on, or ignored: they are part of our make-up as human beings. But they are not the foundation for believing in God’s promises. Feelings, like reason, and no less or more so, need to be healed by Christ - yet neither are useless or trash; they are faulty, but God is not: and that is what matters. God is great, though man is dust and ashes . OSA is no more irreconcilable with the Shoah, than believe in Providence is, or in the Love of God. If the Shoah is a problem for OSAS - so is it for believing that God is Love. So is any sin. IOW - it is not ##

Michael:

I’m not saying how it’s IDEALLY worked out, or even how they’d like to see it preached, I’m talking about how it’s lived at places like CALVERY CHAPEL, which I attended in the mid 1970’s - early 1980’s, beginning with the Saturday Night Concerts at the “Mother church” in Costa Mesa and ending when I joined a Christian Commune in Oregun in the early 1980’s.

I knew we had a personality conflict. I had hoped that it had died, but I guess seeing my name was like showing a bull the red cape. Sorry.

The thread is yours.

In Christ. Michael

 

[Matt16_18]

Gottle of Geer:

OSAS rests on one foundation, the promises, faithfulness, and stability of God.

All versions of OSAS are heresy, and the Calvinst version of this heresy is built on a foundation of straw. There are only two forms of the OSAS heresy: the version that teaches that man has free will (antinomianism), and the version that teaches man has no free will (the elect as holy meat robots incapable of committing damnable sin). Neither version of the OSAS heresy has anything to do with Christianity.

The ONLY way that a Calvinst can argue for OSAS is to assert that men do not have free will - that the “elect” are really nothing more than depraved meat robots that have had irresistible grace crammed down their rebellious little throats - that irresistible grace has transformed formerly depraved meat robots into holy meat robots. Which is exactly what sonseeker is preaching.

If a Calvinist ever admits he has free will, the only way he can still believe in OSAS is to embrace antinomianism. (Sonseeker contradicts himself when he tries to claim that he has no free will and that a Christian can choose to commit sin or not commit sin - the only consistent Calvinists are those that have gone completely off the deep end and claim that because they are one of the “elect” that they are incapable of committing sin.)

 

[Matt16_18]

Traditional Ang:

the antinomian version is dangerous because it essentially says that people who have been “Once Saved” are “Still Saved” NO Matter what they do or whether they repent and try to bring their lives into conformity with God’s law.

I’ve seen people who committed adultery and fornication, and did not repent, who believed that they wewre still going to heaven because of this pernicious doctrine.

Blessed are they who act to save God’s Little Ones. Michael

Anybody that has spent time with a denomination that preaches antinomian OSAS knows that some members within the group will eventually try to exercise the “sin option” in their salvation contract with God. “Gosh, even though I shouldn’t commit fornication, committing this sin would never cause me to be damned because I’m saved”. Mix antinomian OSAS with a bunch of teenagers struggling with their sexual desires and watch out. Pernicious heresy indeed!

Linus is denying that “real Christians” could ever become backslid unrepentant sinners, but an honest look at how the lives Christians play out over time proves that he is wrong and Jesus is correct. Jesus warned that some Christians would grow like the seeds sown in rocky ground – they receive the word with joy and begin to talk the talk and walk the walk, but when the trials and tribulations of the world bear down on them, they fall away.

 

[linus]

Matt16_18:

I never said that the Christian has recovered the gift of holy innocence that was possessed by Adam before the Fall. I said that the Christian is like Adam because he too is free from the bondage to sin.

The “gift” of holy innocence?? Adam was created wholly without sin, hence, in a “state of innocence.” It wasn’t a “gift” bestowed on him. He remained in that created state of innocence until he wilfully sinned by transgressing a definite, divine commandment, *“thou shall not eat of the tree…”. *

Adam was created the federal head of all mankind, and the Scriptures teach that sin entered into this world through him, and when he sinned the divine judgment of death spread to all men because we all sinned - all being in Adam (our federal head, see Rom. 5:12).

But now read what Paul states in Rom. 5:19:

"For as through one man’s disobedience * (Adam’s) the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One * (Jesus Christ), the many will be made righteous."

The Apostle Paul tells us what Christ’s obedience was by which the many are “made righteous”:

" And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross" (Phil. 2:8).

Since Adam’s rebellion in the Garden all his posterity born into this world are condemned to death because death reigns in Adam, both spiritually and physically. The only hope God has provided for Adam’s hapless posterity is in the *“Last Adam,” * Jesus Christ. Through His one act of obedience, i.e., His vicarious, sacrificial death on the cross, all of Adam’s race who trust what Christ has done for them on the cross are “born again” out of Adam and into Christ, the Last Adam - “made righteous” in Him (see 2 Cor. 5:21).

Christ didn’t endure the cross just to grant Adam’s race the freedom of choice, i.e., to sin or not to sin. His was a substitutionary sin-sacrifice. God’s only remedy for sin. *“Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world” * (Jn. 1:29). While on the cross the sins of the world were imputed to Christ and He suffered the eternal penalty for them in our stead. And the Scriptures teach that His righteousness is then imputed to all who believe on Him, i.e., His substitutionary sin-sacrifice on their behalf.

In Adam all are made sinners, in Christ all (believers) are made righteous (Rom. 5:19).

This is the meaning behind Paul’s words when addressing the believers in Ephesus, “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that no of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not as a result of works, that no one should boast.”

Until you humbly accept the Biblical truth of the federal headship of both Adam and Christ you will never understand the power of the cross and the believer’s eternal security being no longer in Adam but IN CHRIST RISEN. This is a core teaching of salvation presented in the Epistles of the N.T.

“But God being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved) and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places IN CHRIST JESUS, in order that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us IN CHRIST JESUS” (Eph. 2:4-7).

Such is the true believer’s present, eternal position now being “IN CHRIST.”

In unbelief you’re still trying to make salvation a sin issue (the whole premise behind this thread). It is not!!! God dealt with our sins 2000 years ago through the substitutionary sin-sacrifice of His beloved Son. There God had His judgment day on ALL sin, when the Just (Christ) died for the unjust (you and me, 1 Pet. 3:18).

No man ever goes to hell because of sins, but because he refuses to believe in the only begotten Son of God and His work on the cross on his behalf. All unbelievers (including religious unbelievers) will die in their sins (Jn. 8:24). But tragically they die in their sins only because they wilfully (here’s your free will) refuse to believe in what Christ has done, once-and-for-all, on their behalf, that they may be saved from the eternal consequence of their sins. Consequently they’re born in Adam and they die in Adam. Such a pity in view of God’s infinite grace toward all who believe in Christ Jesus, the “Last Adam.”

Paul sums it up:

“There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are IN CHRIST JESUS” (Rom. 8:1).

 

[linus]

Traditional Ang:

Linus:Hopefully, the same as you. The Grace of God eminating from the Cross of Christ Jesus coming to us in the Sacraments found in the Church that he himself established on this earth.

Well then the means of my salvation is different than yours – and the problems is, we can’t both be right. I do not find in Scripture the idea that grace eminates from the cross of Christ and found in Sacraments. Eph. 2:8 does not read, “For by the grace eminating from the cross, found in and dispensed through sacraments are you saved - are being saved - and eventually will be saved…” But instead, “For by grace you HAVE BEEN SAVED* through faith*; and that not of yourselves, it (salvation) is the GIFT of God; not as a result of works…” You and I have very different “gospels.”

That maybe so, but that doesn’t change the fact that in the one passage you cited, St. Paul cited eternally life in Christ Jesus as “the Crown of Glory to be won”. Theat doesn’t change the fact that St. Paul refered to working his “own salvation out in fear and trembling”.If eternal life is something to be “won” by us, then even Jesus has deceived us (Jn. 3:14-18; Jn. 4:24). To work “out” (outward) one’s own salvation is not the same as working “for” one’s salvation.

It might help if you know that St. Paul knew what he was refering to when he used the word we usually translate as “Works”. I have this from a reliable RABINNICAL source. The term that St. Paul used, “Works Of the Law”, actually encompassed ceremonial acts such as Circumcision, Shabbat Observance and the Temple Sacrifices and not the normal acts of decency, temperence and charity which we are all called to.

You might want to read Romans chapter four where Paul makes no reference to the Law, but stricly in the realm of personal merit.

“Now to the one who works, his wage is not reckoned as a FAVOR (grace) but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but BELIEVES in Him who justifies the UNGODLY, his FAITH is reckoned as righteousness” (Rom. 4:4).

St. Paul never intended for the reader to discard those, He only wished that people would do away with the specific Rabinnical entanglements that were limiting their ability to dedicate their lives to Christ and to His Church.

Works are a part of the believer’s life, but not when it comes to obtaining eternal salvation. The believer is created in Christ Jesus “for” good works but never* “by”* them (see Eph. 2:10).

Linus, see Matt 25 for what our Lord says about what’ll be in the air when we stand before the judgement Throne.

The “glorious throne” Christ sits on in Matt. 25 is not “the judgment seat of Christ” before which all believers who make up the Church must stand to have their works appraised (1 Cor. 3). In Matt. 25 He is preparing to set up His earthly Kingdom and is separating the “sheep” [believers) from the “goats” (unbelievers) amongst the *nations

that are living on the earth at that time.

Your definition of “Grace” is far too limited and is one that the Authors of the Bible and the Church Fathers simply would not have recognized.

Not according to Paul in Romans chapter four.

They saw Grace as the free gift of God in Christ Jesus our Lord who through that gave us life and the ability to live it fully and abundantly.

You’re confusing the power of divine grace toward those already saved with the power of divine grace to save. In this context we are talking about salvation which is “by grace” (unmerited, unrecompensed, undeserved favor) *“through faith.” *

 

[Exporter]

For Goodness Sakes!

The originator of this thread threw out an unknown series of letters, OSAS. We Catholics do not know what this stands for.

What is OSAS?

 

[Elzee]

Exporter:

For Goodness Sakes!

The originator of this thread threw out an unknown series of letters, OSAS. We Catholics do not know what this stands for.

What is OSAS?

I’m sorry - OSAS is ‘Once Saved Always Saved’. I’m a Catholic. I knew the concept but learned the acronym on these Forums so I thought it was familiar to everyone. I’m sorry for not explaining.

 

[Matt16_18]

linus:

The “gift” of holy innocence?? Adam was created wholly without sin, hence, in a “state of innocence.” It wasn’t a “gift” bestowed on him.

Adam’s life was a gift from God, and included in that gift was the gift of holy innocence.

Until you humbly accept the Biblical truth of the federal headship of both Adam and Christ you will never understand the power of the cross and the believer’s eternal security …

The topic of this thread is not the “federal headship” of Adam or Jesus (whatever that is), it is about OSAS, or “eternal security”, as you have called it.

There are only two versions of OSAS, the version that denies that men have free will, and the version that affirms that men have free will. We are trying to determine which version of OSAS that you believe in. I suspect that you believe in the heresy of antinomianism, but I am not positive, because you have been evasive in answering my direct questions addressed to you.

Let me ask you for the third time:

Do you believe that you have free will?

Do you believe that a Christian can choose to be disobedient to God?

Do you believe that God is the cause of all that is evil, sick and depraved?

 

[sonseeker]

Matt16_18:

Jesus warned that some Christians would grow like the seeds sown in rocky ground – they receive the word with joy and begin to talk the talk and walk the walk, but when the trials and tribulations of the world bear down on them, they fall away.

Rubbish!

Where does He call them Christians? Always imposing your theology on the text as you ignore what it says:

Luke 8:11-15 (NASB95)
11 “Now the parable is this: the seed is the word of God.
12 “Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.
13 “Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.
14 “The seed which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with worries and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to maturity.
15 “But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.

Which verse says that any of them were Christians?

 

[Fiat]

sonseeker:

Rubbish!

Where does He call them Christians? Always imposing your theology on the text as you ignore what it says:

Luke 8:11-15 (NASB95)
11 “Now the parable is this: the seed is the word of God.
12 “Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.
13 “Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.
14 “The seed which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with worries and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to maturity.
15 “But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.

Which verse says that any of them were Christians?

Perhaps Matt16 18 was addressing those Bible Alone Protestants who believe that once you “receive the word,” then you become a Christian at that point.

It’s hard to say…so many Bible Alone Christians believe so many different things… At least now we know that you are not someone who believes that once a person receives the gospel he is automatically and eternally saved.

Fiat

 

[deb1]

sonseeker:

Rubbish!

Where does He call them Christians? Always imposing your theology on the text as you ignore what it says:

Which verse says that any of them were Christians?

Jesus **never **used the term Christian. As you probably know his followers weren’t called Christians until after his death. So, what is your interpretation of the verses?

 

[sonseeker]

(Sonseeker contradicts himself when he tries to claim that he has no free will and that a Christian can choose to commit sin or not commit sin - the only consistent Calvinists are those that have gone completely off the deep end and claim that because they are one of the “elect” that they are incapable of committing sin.)

When you decide to take some time and study the scripture you will learn that God is in absolute control of all things–even the decisions that the creatures make. And while He is in control of all things, the writers of scripture, speaking under inspiration, (which you reject, along with the scripture), present man as responsible for His actions. This is seen in Acts 2:23, Lk 22:22; Rom 9, in fact, Paul anticipates your insidious objection in Rom 9 and answer it thus: But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to Him who has formed it "Why have you made me like this? Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishoner?

Here is the formula presented by the writers of Scripture: God is in absolute control of His creation and can dispose of it in any way He chooses, and, man is responsible for his choices/actions. Deny that, and you deny God’s revelation.

You are an Arminian who says out of the left side your mouth that God is sovereign, while out of the right side of your mouth you say that you are sovereign; you believe that your will is greater than God’s, and that you are more important than God, and that He cannot violate your precious will.The god you believe in is weak, puny, and impotent. He is not the God who has revealed Himself within the pages of Scripture–a God who can save His people to the uttermost. As you reject the authority of Scripture, you reject the authority of God. There is no other way to see it. That is why you will not understand. As the Lord Himself says in John 8:45: "…because I tell you the truth, you do not believe Me." I know all too well how He felt.

Sonseeker

 

[sonseeker]

deb1:

Jesus **never **used the term Christian. As you probably know his followers weren’t called Christians until after his death. So, what is your interpretation of the verses?

Are calling Matt 16_18 a liar! He seems to think that Jesus said those in the parable of the sower were all Christians. Were they?

 

[sonseeker]

Fiat:

Perhaps Matt16 18 was addressing those Bible Alone Protestants who believe that once you “receive the word,” then you become a Christian at that point.

It’s hard to say…so many Bible Alone Christians believe so many different things… At least now we know that you are not someone who believes that once a person receives the gospel he is automatically and eternally saved.

Fiat

Yea, maybe, it’s hard to say.

 

[Mickey]

sonseeker:

When you decide to take some time and study the scripture…

sonseeker:

You are an Arminian who says out of the left side your mouth that God is sovereign while out of the right side of your mouth you say that you are sovereign…

sonseeker:

The god you believe in is weak, puny, and impotent. He is not the God who has revealed Himself within the pages of Scripture–…

Wow! You really are the living example of humilty and Christian charity, Bill. May God have mercy on your soul.

 

[Fiat]

sonseeker:

Here is the formula presented by the writers of Scripture: God is in absolute control of His creation and can dispose of it in any way He chooses, and, man is responsible for his choices/actions. Deny that, and you deny God’s revelation.

Sonseeker

Huh? So do we have free will or not?

Fiat

 

[sonseeker]

Fiat:

Huh? So do we have free will or not?

Fiat

No