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Ammi
Guest
That was a reply to Latin. And light hearted humor. 
Oh, I see now you weren’t replying to me.
Oh, I see now you weren’t replying to me.
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L
Latin
Guest
Of course I replying to you Ammi, I know that was a light hearted humor, inspired by the word cause.
The truth is in Catholic Soteriology, the word cause does not mean force or coercion.
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IT SIMPLY MEANS AS FOLLOWS
Aquinas said, "God changes the will without forcing it . But he can change the will from the fact that he himself operates in the will as he does in nature," De Veritatis 22:9. 31. ST I-II:112:3. 32. Gaudium et Spes 22; "being …
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St. Augustine, De gratia et libero arbitrio 16, 32: "It is certain that we will when we will; but He brings it about that we will good … . It is certain that we act when we act, but He brings it about that we act, providing most effective powers to the will."
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CCCS 1990-1991; Justification is God’s free gift which detaches man from enslavement to sin and reconciles him to God.
Justification is also our acceptance of God’s righteousness. In this gift, faith, hope, charity, and OBEDIENCE TO GOD’S WILL are given to us.
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CCCS 1996-1998; Justification comes from grace (God’s free and undeserved help) and is given to us to respond to his call.
This call to eternal life is supernatural, coming TOTALLY from God’s decision and surpassing ALL power of human intellect and will.
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308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator.
God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes:
"For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."171
Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it.
307 God thus enables men to be intelligent and free, causes in order to complete the work of creation, … Though often unconscious collaborators with God’s will, they can also enter deliberately into the divine plan by their actions…
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Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott;
The three Divine or Theological Virtues of Faith, Hope and Charity are infused with Sanctifying grace. (De fide.)
For every salutary act internal supernatural grace of God (gratia elevans) is absolutely necessary, (De fide).
There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will, (De fide).
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2022; The divine initiative in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man. Grace responds to the deepest yearnings of human freedom, calls freedom to cooperate with it, and perfects freedom.
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As we see above: WE ALL HAVE FREE WILLS, our Free Wills are the creation/ product of God’s Internal Supernatural Graces and His Supernatural Intervention in the faculties of our souls.
We all INFALLIBLY and FREELY choose heaven (at His timing, which is sometimes the last moment in a person’s life) as God wills it and CAUSED BY Him in the way, He provides us all the graces necessary for its accomplishment.
.
God bless
The truth is in Catholic Soteriology, the word cause does not mean force or coercion.
.
IT SIMPLY MEANS AS FOLLOWS
Aquinas said, "God changes the will without forcing it . But he can change the will from the fact that he himself operates in the will as he does in nature," De Veritatis 22:9. 31. ST I-II:112:3. 32. Gaudium et Spes 22; "being …
.
St. Augustine, De gratia et libero arbitrio 16, 32: "It is certain that we will when we will; but He brings it about that we will good … . It is certain that we act when we act, but He brings it about that we act, providing most effective powers to the will."
.
CCCS 1990-1991; Justification is God’s free gift which detaches man from enslavement to sin and reconciles him to God.
Justification is also our acceptance of God’s righteousness. In this gift, faith, hope, charity, and OBEDIENCE TO GOD’S WILL are given to us.
.
CCCS 1996-1998; Justification comes from grace (God’s free and undeserved help) and is given to us to respond to his call.
This call to eternal life is supernatural, coming TOTALLY from God’s decision and surpassing ALL power of human intellect and will.
.
308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator.
God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes:
"For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."171
Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it.
307 God thus enables men to be intelligent and free, causes in order to complete the work of creation, … Though often unconscious collaborators with God’s will, they can also enter deliberately into the divine plan by their actions…
.
Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott;
The three Divine or Theological Virtues of Faith, Hope and Charity are infused with Sanctifying grace. (De fide.)
For every salutary act internal supernatural grace of God (gratia elevans) is absolutely necessary, (De fide).
There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will, (De fide).
.
2022; The divine initiative in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man. Grace responds to the deepest yearnings of human freedom, calls freedom to cooperate with it, and perfects freedom.
.
As we see above: WE ALL HAVE FREE WILLS, our Free Wills are the creation/ product of God’s Internal Supernatural Graces and His Supernatural Intervention in the faculties of our souls.
We all INFALLIBLY and FREELY choose heaven (at His timing, which is sometimes the last moment in a person’s life) as God wills it and CAUSED BY Him in the way, He provides us all the graces necessary for its accomplishment.
.
God bless
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Ammi
Guest
I see, in good faith, that no matter when a person might hopefully believe in the Gospel, that if any person does not believe, and rejects out of the heart, they remain in mankind’s fall from grace.
L
Latin
Guest
Ammi please listen carefully and analyze what you are reading.
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Catholic Encyclopedia : Evil
“But we cannot say without denying the Divine omnipotence, that another equally perfect universe could not be created in which evil would have no place.”
310 But why did God not create a world so perfect that no evil could exist in it?
With infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world in a state of journeying towards its ultimate perfection, 314 through the dramas of evil and sin .
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In THE PROBLEM OF EVIL Peter Kreeft explains;
“Who’s to say suffering is all bad? Life without it would produce spoiled brats, not joyful saints.”
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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Free Will explains;
“God is the author of all causes and effects, but is not the author of sin, because an action ceases to be sin if God wills it to happen. Still God is the cause of sin.
God’s omnipotent providence exercises a complete and perfect control over all events that happen, or will happen, in the universe.”
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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence explains;
His wisdom He so orders all events within the universe that the end for which it was created may be realized.
He directs all, even evil and sin itself, to the final end for which the universe was created.
Evil, therefore, ministers to God’s design (St. Gregory the Great, op. cit., VI, xxxii in “P.L.”,
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303 The sacred books powerfully affirm God’s absolute sovereignty over the course of events.
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As we see above: In this world, God Designed/ Planned, Decreed/ Orders every event, even the events of the dramas of evil and sin as well .
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Please Ammi think about: How can God condemn anyone to hell when:
His wisdom He so Designed/ Planed, Decreed/ Orders from all eternity EVERY event within the universe, He directs all, even the events of the evil and sin itself and the events every religion to the final end for which the universe was created.
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God’s will is the cause of all things, every event that happen and will happen in the universe.
Nothing that is outside of God’s creating, sustaining, and governing will.
History is not just what He sees will be, but is what He causes to be , especially in every aspect of the redemptive process.
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The Divine will is cause of all things that happens, as Augustine says (De Trin. iii, 1 seqq.). Therefore all things are subject to fate.
The same is true for events in our lives. Relative to us they often appear to be by chance.
But relative to God, who directs everything according to his divine plan, nothing occurs by chance.
Hence if this divine influence stopped, every operation would stop.
Every operation, therefore, of anything is traced back to Him as its cause. (Summa Contra Gentiles, Book III.)
.
Thank you Ammi for your answer in advance.
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God bless
.
Catholic Encyclopedia : Evil
“But we cannot say without denying the Divine omnipotence, that another equally perfect universe could not be created in which evil would have no place.”
310 But why did God not create a world so perfect that no evil could exist in it?
With infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world in a state of journeying towards its ultimate perfection, 314 through the dramas of evil and sin .
.
In THE PROBLEM OF EVIL Peter Kreeft explains;
“Who’s to say suffering is all bad? Life without it would produce spoiled brats, not joyful saints.”
.
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Free Will explains;
“God is the author of all causes and effects, but is not the author of sin, because an action ceases to be sin if God wills it to happen. Still God is the cause of sin.
God’s omnipotent providence exercises a complete and perfect control over all events that happen, or will happen, in the universe.”
.
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence explains;
His wisdom He so orders all events within the universe that the end for which it was created may be realized.
He directs all, even evil and sin itself, to the final end for which the universe was created.
Evil, therefore, ministers to God’s design (St. Gregory the Great, op. cit., VI, xxxii in “P.L.”,
.
303 The sacred books powerfully affirm God’s absolute sovereignty over the course of events.
.
As we see above: In this world, God Designed/ Planned, Decreed/ Orders every event, even the events of the dramas of evil and sin as well .
.
Please Ammi think about: How can God condemn anyone to hell when:
His wisdom He so Designed/ Planed, Decreed/ Orders from all eternity EVERY event within the universe, He directs all, even the events of the evil and sin itself and the events every religion to the final end for which the universe was created.
.
God’s will is the cause of all things, every event that happen and will happen in the universe.
Nothing that is outside of God’s creating, sustaining, and governing will.
History is not just what He sees will be, but is what He causes to be , especially in every aspect of the redemptive process.
.
The Divine will is cause of all things that happens, as Augustine says (De Trin. iii, 1 seqq.). Therefore all things are subject to fate.
The same is true for events in our lives. Relative to us they often appear to be by chance.
But relative to God, who directs everything according to his divine plan, nothing occurs by chance.
Hence if this divine influence stopped, every operation would stop.
Every operation, therefore, of anything is traced back to Him as its cause. (Summa Contra Gentiles, Book III.)
.
Thank you Ammi for your answer in advance.
.
God bless
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Latin
Guest
I agree with you TheLittleLady, no one force a deathbed conversion.
Aquinas said, "God changes the will without forcing it . But he can change the will from the fact that he himself operates in the will as he does in nature," De Veritatis 22:9. 31. ST I-II:112:3. 32. Gaudium et Spes 22; "being …
St. Augustine, De gratia Christi 25, 26: "For not only has God given us our ability and helps it, but He even works [brings about] willing and acting in us; not that we do not will or that we do not act, but that without His help we neither will anything good nor do it"
There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will, (De fide).
.
2022; The divine initiative in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man. Grace responds to the deepest yearnings of human freedom, calls freedom to cooperate with it, and perfects freedom.
.
God bless
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poche
Guest
It doesn’t look good for someone who willfully refuses to believe in the Bible. From an objective standpoint they would be condemned to an eternal fire.
But then why did that particular person refuse to believe? Can we really know the interior workings of a person’s soul? If there were to be some mental block that would cause this unbeliever to with an invincible ignorance reject the Gospels then there is the possibility for their salvation. We see the exterior we do not see the interior. It is the interior that God judges the soul.
But then why did that particular person refuse to believe? Can we really know the interior workings of a person’s soul? If there were to be some mental block that would cause this unbeliever to with an invincible ignorance reject the Gospels then there is the possibility for their salvation. We see the exterior we do not see the interior. It is the interior that God judges the soul.
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Ammi
Guest
Disbelief and rejection IS from the interior. It’s a matter of the heart.
That’s why I dont think Invinible Ignorance applies to this matter. If one knows the Gospel, they are no longer ignorant. If they believe it, but have ligitimate obstacles preventing their move towards cooperation with His grace speedily, then they at least believe and have desire. But if they reject the Gospel? That’s not what ignorance means. Ignorance means unaware.
Ignorance:
lack of knowledge, education, or awareness
That’s why I dont think Invinible Ignorance applies to this matter. If one knows the Gospel, they are no longer ignorant. If they believe it, but have ligitimate obstacles preventing their move towards cooperation with His grace speedily, then they at least believe and have desire. But if they reject the Gospel? That’s not what ignorance means. Ignorance means unaware.
Ignorance:
lack of knowledge, education, or awareness
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Maximus1
Guest
I have difficulty at times with this notion of " believe". As if some declaration magically determines outcome. I ascribe it more to Protestantism than CATHOLOCISM.
When I think about what it means to " believe" I wonder about the saying ascribed to Saint Francis by his friends.
" Teach the Gospel, and use words if necessary."
Which would be more important, a declaration, or, a life that closely lives the various parables, Sermon, etc. from the pages themselves? And if you lived it, would a declaration even be a wilful rejection?
Part of me wonders if I even like the idea that someone might " hedge their bets" by making a declaration, and live a life alien to the Gospel and have salvation determined by " technicality" rather than a well lived life. I cannot imagine a God motivated by anything that resembles the imperfects of our own imagination and fears… Or variations of agnostic orthodoxy/ ritualized.
We follow Sacraments because of the Constellation of important Christian ideas and
truths that they get us to stop and think about ascribing the reverence and importance they carry. Living the Sacrament. Not getting a heavenly passbook stamped memorializing attendance.
To me , we read and follow the Gospel motivated by so many positive things. Passion! Love! Desire and hunger! It is sorrowful to imagine a motivation of strict obedience.
When I think about what it means to " believe" I wonder about the saying ascribed to Saint Francis by his friends.
" Teach the Gospel, and use words if necessary."
Which would be more important, a declaration, or, a life that closely lives the various parables, Sermon, etc. from the pages themselves? And if you lived it, would a declaration even be a wilful rejection?
Part of me wonders if I even like the idea that someone might " hedge their bets" by making a declaration, and live a life alien to the Gospel and have salvation determined by " technicality" rather than a well lived life. I cannot imagine a God motivated by anything that resembles the imperfects of our own imagination and fears… Or variations of agnostic orthodoxy/ ritualized.
We follow Sacraments because of the Constellation of important Christian ideas and
truths that they get us to stop and think about ascribing the reverence and importance they carry. Living the Sacrament. Not getting a heavenly passbook stamped memorializing attendance.
To me , we read and follow the Gospel motivated by so many positive things. Passion! Love! Desire and hunger! It is sorrowful to imagine a motivation of strict obedience.
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TheLittleLady
Guest
Which is something St Francis never said.
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Ammi
Guest
Even if he did say that, it would have to be in a context of accompanying action with faith. It certainly cannot undermine Teaching and professing our fundamental Beliefs!
We profess our belief in the Creed at Mass. This is a summary of the core of the Gospel.
We profess our belief in the Creed at Mass. This is a summary of the core of the Gospel.
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Gorgias
Guest
…except that, this notion of “belief” is critical in what the Church proposes. Here’s what the documents are asserting, at least in this particular case (after all, a number of cases and situations have been discussed in this thread):
- Hear the Gospel
- understand the Gospel
- believe in the truth of the Gospel
- reject the Gospel
- you haven’t heard the Gospel? The Church doesn’t say you’re damned
- you heard but didn’t understand the Gospel? The Church doesn’t say you’re damned
- you heard, understood, but do not believe what you heard? The Church still doesn’t say you’re (necessarily) damned.
You’re close. It doesn’t look good for someone who accepts the Gospel but refuses to obey it. If you don’t believe (for whatever reason), we cannot say – on an objective basis – that you’re bound for eternal hellfire. (You might be… but it’s a subjective, case-by-case determination.)
You cannot validly pick apart the words in the ‘jargon’ of theology, define the parts, and then presume that your definition is what the term itself means. That kind of extrapolation leads to the kinds of errors you’re demonstrating here.
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Ammi
Guest
Yes, that’s what Scripture Teaches, and the Church does not contradict (which you have certainly not demonstrated otherwise).
The Gospel message confronts the heart. It cannot be declined. If one is seeking God, and open to His grace, they cannot reject the Gospel. It’s a contradiction.
Jesus has fashioned the entrance of souls into the kingdom through faith. He said, “My sheep hear my voice”.
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Gorgias
Guest
Says you.
That’s absolutely not true! In fact, St Paul contradicts it explicitly!
M
Maximus1
Guest
That is likely true. It was someone close at his eulogy if I recall.
It remains an important idea I think. As opposed to idolatry over words.
It remains an important idea I think. As opposed to idolatry over words.
M
Maximus1
Guest
Actually the Creed draws criticism that it lacks praxis.
They speak of the comma.
Jesus is born, begotten of the Spirit, then it moves to crucified, died and buried. ( What about his life?).
The praxis…love, mercy, the Sermon, etc.
They speak of the comma.
Jesus is born, begotten of the Spirit, then it moves to crucified, died and buried. ( What about his life?).
The praxis…love, mercy, the Sermon, etc.
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Nikolaite
Guest
I did read it. The point is he knows the answer to his question or at least should know based upon logical premises which formed the question. It is silly to ask it because the answer is IN the question.
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thistle
Guest
Please stop being rude to another poster or you will be flagged.
A
Ammi
Guest
. . . . He has repeatedly asserted his opinions as facts without providing his sources.
This time it was, “St. Paul explicitly contradicts” that a person who is seeking God, and open to His grace could reject the Gospel!
Provide the Scripture. . . .
This time it was, “St. Paul explicitly contradicts” that a person who is seeking God, and open to His grace could reject the Gospel!
Provide the Scripture. . . .
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thistle
Guest
Now you are being rude to me as well. Please stop it.
For your information Gorgias has posted many sources backing up her arguments which you have simply ignored because they work against you.
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Ammi
Guest
Provide St Paul’s statement which demonstrates that a person seeking God and relying on His grace can still reject the Gospel!
Stop the distracting claims and accusations.
Gorgias has not supported his claims with the resources he is using. You are free to share his opinions, thistle.
I’m asking for the actual reference from St Paul. It’s a poor arguement, and a waste of my time, to simply claim St Paul says something! Show it!
Stop the distracting claims and accusations.
Gorgias has not supported his claims with the resources he is using. You are free to share his opinions, thistle.
I’m asking for the actual reference from St Paul. It’s a poor arguement, and a waste of my time, to simply claim St Paul says something! Show it!
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