Can the Church change its teaching?

[una_fides]

It’s not a local problem. Protestant missionaries, TV evangelists, Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses etc. have a field day in Catholic countries because most Catholics have never understood their own faith. Do you think Pope Leo X would have been able to sell indulgences on such a large scale if Catholics had been taught the truth about salvation?

I agree that on a local level the Church in the last 40 years has done a terrible job of catechesis! There needs to be a much greater effort to spread the truth of the Catholic faith and the necessity to be in this Church to attain eternal salvation. The Church needs to spread the truth about the need for confession and the other sacraments. She needs to bring more and more souls to holy Mass to receive our Lord in the Holy Eucharist and bring more souls to salvation! The fact that the Church has not done a great job lately in educating her masses concerning the true faith does not mean that what she believes and professes is not true. It simply means that many of the teachers are either ignorant of the truth, are afraid to teach it, or are rejecting it and teaching otherwise.

There is no conspiracy. Just poorly educated humans. Popes in years past have written encyclicals and established means to continue to teach the truth. One of the great problems today is rogue priests and bishops who are not following the pope and are doing their own thing and the lack of discipline in the name of mercy that has taken place. Vague wording also plagues many of the modern writings as has been pointed out. The Church is currently in a time of crisis as she has endured in times past. Nevertheless, she will prevail.

Regarding indulgences, it sounds like you do not have a grasp of their significance in the role of our salvation either. Remember that salvation is three fold. I have been saved, I am being saved, and I hope to be saved. We are currently working out our salvation with fear and trembling. Indulgences remit the temporal punishment due to sins that have already been forgiven. In purgatory we pay off the temporal punishments that sins bring with them. Hence indulgences reduce our time in purgatory and thereby play a role in our salvation. I suggest reading more on indulgences or starting a thread on that topic to learn more.

 

[una_fides]

I actually used to be a good Catholic.

I could tell by the many protestant arguments you’ve been raising and your citing Scripture as a defense for everything. Perhaps you should change your religion status on here to “former Catholic” so that people know what they are up against.

 

[ron77nyc]

Regarding indulgences, it sounds like you do not have a grasp of their significance in the role of our salvation either. Remember that salvation is three fold. I have been saved, I am being saved, and I hope to be saved. We are currently working out our salvation with fear and trembling. Indulgences remit the temporal punishment due to sins that have already been forgiven. In purgatory we pay off the temporal punishments that sins bring with them. Hence indulgences reduce our time in purgatory and thereby play a role in our salvation. I suggest reading more on indulgences or starting a thread on that topic to learn more.

I’m making a point about the ignorance of Catholics in the middle ages and how they were so easily exploited. I personally don’t want to know about any more trials in the next life. There are enough here on earth. I do appreciate all the info you are providing me with.

 

[una_fides]

I’m making a point about the ignorance of Catholics in the middle ages and how they were so easily exploited. I personally don’t want to know about any more trials in the next life. There are enough here on earth. I do appreciate all the info you are providing me with.

You’re welcome Ron. I’m glad to be of help any way I can!
Today people are obviously a lot more educated than in the middle ages, but the problem today is more of a false information and indifference. I think people back then may have been more apt to learn the truth and were certainly more obedient minded and the abuses taking place were due to human nature in people not a defect in official Church teaching itself. Today, due to many factors such as riches and technology, I think many more people are indifferent to the truth and are not as eager to receive it when it is presented.

 

[ron77nyc]

Mal: Actually , you are the one making the claim that GOD guides them. I never made that claim. As a Catholic I know that JESUS formed his ONE TRUE CHURCH and that on Pentecost Sunday he (And the Father through him depending on the passage you prefer lest I stir up the Orthodox ) sent the Holy Ghost to HIS Church to guide her He Established the Sacrament of Holy Orders and the Priesthood. That the powers of the Priesthood only exist through that Sacrament. So you can name any false Church you want to name and whatever false service they claim honors GOD and it remains an invention of Man. Only GOD can establish a religion. And GOD , the Son , did.

That makes sense to me but here’s what doesn’t make sense. Why would a Protestant such as Billy Graham (he’s the most famous but there are many, many more) say he is called by God and dedicate his life to preaching the gospel if he wasn’t guided by the Holy Spirit?

 

[surritter]

That makes sense to me but here’s what doesn’t make sense. Why would a Protestant such as Billy Graham (he’s the most famous but there are many, many more) say he is called by God and dedicate his life to preaching the gospel if he wasn’t guided by the Holy Spirit?

Perhaps Billy Graham was called by God to the Truth which exists most fully in the Catholic Church (as all of us are), but he stopped short when he found comfort in Protestantism. He fell in love with the Bible (kudos!) but he didn’t complete the pursuit of truth and follow the trail to the Church which gave us the Bible.

So he was called by God, but something else got in the way of his full pursuit of the call. That explains how everything holy and true comes through the Catholic faith, even if many good-hearted Protestants remain outside of the visible boundaries of the Church.

 

[PJM]

=ron77nyc;6267136]Do you think the Catholic Church in Mexico or New Orleans 100 years ago was teaching the same stuff that Catholics in America know today about Catholicism. Let’s go back 100 years to Ireland or Brazil or speak to an Irishman or Brazilian age 60 or more and see if you can have a discussion about the deposit of faith or justification by faith. I can’t have those discussions with Catholics my age who were educated in New York City Catholic schools.

Yep, pretty much so:thumbsup:

Catholic Doctrine, Dogma, and Sacred Tradition canot be changed. What was true then is true now, region has nothing to do with it.

 

[sidbrown]

If you read my other posts, I explain how that can be possible. There are actually two plausible explanations. First, as I earlier explained, someone who is presently invincibly ignorant yet following the dictates of his conscious (not committing sins) and has perfect charity, etc, for those few cases, God could send them an angel, infuse them with knowledge prior to death, or send them a missionary to instruct them in the truths of the Catholic faith that must be believed for salvation such as concerning the incarnation, etc. Also keep in mind that a man is not bound to know all the truths of the Catholic faith and if he is invincibly ignorant of any teaching of the Church then if he does not believe it he will not be held accountable before God. The second explanation is that if someone is invincibly ignorant concerning all the truths of the faith, that God would not require an explicit faith or even a conscious implicit faith but an unconscious implicit faith could suffice if animated by perfect charity. In this case, the person could be considered to have believed the Catholic faith if it was made known to him or one could also read the papal statement as being absolutely true but not explaining the possibility for these few souls that God could save despite their ignorance. There have been other papal statements that include both the firm stance that outside of the Church and outside of this faith there is no salvation but that God also the perfect judge of hearts would not let anyone perish because of his ignorance, which was in no way his fault. Those outside the Church would be justly condemned for the sins they committed just as all those outside the ark perished in the flood. However, we are not ruling out the possibility that God could save such people by placing them in the ark through baptism of desire.

I believe that there are a whole lot more than a few cases of non-Catholics following their conscience. Also, in the papal declaration and quote given, there was no mention of an angel coming at the time of death. Has there been one report of an angel coming to a person at the moment of death, and that person converting from Islam or Judaism or Buddhism? With the population of non-Catholics being in the billions, would it be unreasonable to expect one such case reported? And has any Pope declared that this is what happens to good living non-Catholics at the moment of death?

 

[sidbrown]

Yep, pretty much so:thumbsup:

Catholic Doctrine, Dogma, and Sacred Tradition canot be changed. What was true then is true now, region has nothing to do with it.

But what about the teaching on torture, whether it is allowed or not?

 

[PJM]

=Ultima Ratio;6268940]I’ve assumed you were sincere until this point, but now I question it. What you wrote above is completely false. All you have to do is read any and every pre-Vatican II Catechism and it will explain that salvation is attained by dying in the state of grace. Being good is part of it, since being good is necessary to remain in the state of grace, but the Church has never taught that we are saved by our works without grace.

These are not “good works”. “Good works” are the spiritual and corporeal works of mercy. Confession is the means by which a person who sinned regains the state of grace. If you win the lottery, going to the bank and cashing the check is not a “good work”. It is the way you collect your free money. The same is true with confession. Confession is not a good work, but the way you regain the free gift of grace.

Abstaining from meat on Friday is an act of obedience. From the very beginning God has commanded some sort of abstaining from food as a simple act of obedience. We see this with Adam and Eve in the Garden where they were told not to eat a certain food, and with the Jews during the Old Covenant who were forbidden from eating many foods. During the New Covenant we have a similar act of obedience - one that is very limited. It merely consists of abstaining from certain foods on certain days. Anyone who refuses to perform this simple act of obedience to God deserves what he gets.

You mean, if you die in the state of grace you will go to heaven.

There you have it. That is the teaching of the Church. Show me one pre-Vatican II Catechims that taught anything different.

I actually remember another conversion you and I had on a similar topic where you were making the same sort of claims. You said “before Vatican II the Church taught such and such”. I took the time to look up and post quotes from the Baltimore Catechism (the one that was used up to Vatican II) to show that what you were saying was completely false and, if I remember, you completely ignored the quotes.

In my last post, I asked you for your best example of the Church changing its teaching… and this is what you came up with? You make the typical Protestant claim that the Church teaches salvation by works? Please. Surely you can do better than that.

Please provide a quote from a pre-Vatican II Catechism saying that we are saved by good works apart from grace.

***Excellent response! THANKS!

The CC has never taught that One can “buy or work” one’s way into heaven. Yet works are essentil as acts of charity for ones attainment of heaven simply because they conform to the Divine Will of God which is LOVE. The more and the better we manifest love, the closer we are to God; the closer we are to God, the higher the prospects are that we shall attain heaven.***

 

[una_fides]

I believe that there are a whole lot more than a few cases of non-Catholics following their conscience. Also, in the papal declaration and quote given, there was no mention of an angel coming at the time of death. Has there been one report of an angel coming to a person at the moment of death, and that person converting from Islam or Judaism or Buddhism? With the population of non-Catholics being in the billions, would it be unreasonable to expect one such case reported? And has any Pope declared that this is what happens to good living non-Catholics at the moment of death?

I reproduced these ideas directly from St. Thomas Aquinas. We don’t know exactly how God would bring the faith to someone who is so open to him and can make acts of perfect charity, which few people ever make. I’m not aware of any reports of angels being cited either, and I would think the reason would be two-fold. First, if there were any Catholics present, then I do not believe God would use the angel but rather a person to send the message. Second, the person could be isolated or only the person could be the one privy to the vision for he was the one open to God. Since it could take place at the moment of death, he would not be able to tell anyone else concerning this vision. St. Paul had an experience where our Lord appeared to him and no one else could see Him but Paul, so this behavior would not be unlike our Lord.
No pope has defined that this is what happens nor did I claim such to be the case nor did I claim this part to be the Church’s teaching. It is rather a speculation as to how God can bring the faith to these souls in such a rare state so that they can be saved. The thing also to realize is how exceptionally rare such incidents truly are. It seems you may have a presumption that the majority of people in the word are saved or something similar. Make no mistake, Christ has clearly taught and the Father’s have unanimously taught for 2000 years that wide is the gate that leads to destruction and many go that way and narrow is the way that leads to life and few there are who find it.

 

[sidbrown]

The thing also to realize is how exceptionally rare such incidents truly are.

It might be worthwhile for some of the people here to get to know a few Muslims, Buddhists, Jews and Hindus. Perhaps as you become more familiar with non-Catholics you might see what wonderful people so many of them are. And remember, it is not that there are only a few non-Catholics in the world today. There are billions.

 

[una_fides]

It might be worthwhile for some of the people here to get to know a few Muslims, Buddhists, Jews and Hindus. Perhaps as you become more familiar with non-Catholics you might see what wonderful people so many of them are. And remember, it is not that there are only a few non-Catholics in the world today. There are billions.

I understand where you are coming from. From our human perspective we see these people and wonder how in the world a loving God could let them perish forever in hell. But we must understand the universal problem that infects every human person: sin. God absolutely hates sin. It is completely contrary to his entire being, which is pure perfection and holiness. It offends him and the punishment of sin is eternal death and separation from God. One can be the nicest person in the world, and do all the good works in the world, and commit just one mortal sin, just one, instantly die and deserving would suffer forever in hell. We often see the good on the outward appearance of people, but inside and in secret all people sin to some degree on another. They lust, they covet, they fornicate, they steal, they lie, they hate, the list goes on and on. If we could look at sin from God’s perspective and detest it to the extent that he detests it, then we would understand.

Think of it this way. God hates sin so much that he himself became man and died a most miserable and agonizing death so that we could be freed from sin and its bondage and embrace him, the eternal Good. Without him, all of us, every human creature, no matter how good he may seem outwardly, is nothing but misery and sin, is empty and lacking the one thing inside that we need: God and his sanctifying grace, his divine life living within us. Without the sacraments of confession and Eucharist, I know that I would be on my way to hell for certain. Imagine those who can never confess their sins to a priest, who have not received the graces in baptism, who have never tasted of the heavenly gift of God, and who do not even know of the necessity for perfect contrition and perfect charity towards God in their sinful conditions. The picture for them is so very bleak indeed. If you have friends that are Muslims, Buddhists, etc, you have a great opportunity to share with them the truths of the faith that they need for their salvation.

 

[StillWondering]

That makes sense to me but here’s what doesn’t make sense. Why would a Protestant such as Billy Graham (he’s the most famous but there are many, many more) say he is called by God and dedicate his life to preaching the gospel if he wasn’t guided by the Holy Spirit?

I think Billy Graham and many others fall under this part of Matthew Chapter 7, either as perpitrators or as victims:

Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves. By their fruits you will know them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Just so, every good tree bears good fruit, and a rotten tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. So by their fruits you will know them.
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’
Then I will declare to them solemnly, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.”

God tells us that if we love him, we keep his commandments which are the righteous teachings of God to give us life. And those that do not keep them are liars and the truth is not in them. I think that’s one way to find out who are being guided by the Holy Spirit.

 

[StillWondering]

It might be worthwhile for some of the people here to get to know a few Muslims, Buddhists, Jews and Hindus. Perhaps as you become more familiar with non-Catholics you might see what wonderful people so many of them are. And remember, it is not that there are only a few non-Catholics in the world today. There are billions.

At the same time there are maybe hundreds of millions of fallen away Catholics. Some are wonderful people too. In fact, Catholics may be held at a higher level of culpability then non-Catholics in many things because they had opportunities to learn the truth.

I’m bringing this up because the doors of salvation are narrow while it is open to all. I trust in the Church’s teachings and the Church teaches me to love all of God’s children as God does. I do not think there are only Catholics in heaven. And at the very same moment, I profess and assent the Church’s teaching that there is no salvation outside of the One, Holy, Apostolic and Catholic Church.

 

[ron77nyc]

I think Billy Graham and many others fall under this part of Matthew Chapter 7, either as perpitrators or as victims:

God tells us that if we love him, we keep his commandments which are the righteous teachings of God to give us life. And those that do not keep them are liars and the truth is not in them. I think that’s one way to find out who are being guided by the Holy Spirit.

Or it could be because someone in his family, a father or a grandfather or great grandfather came to know God from the preaching of a traveling evangelist and there was no awareness of a Catholic Church. This is the tradition of the South; the Bible belt. That was his family tradition so he followed it. Now that he knows about the Catholic Church he could not continue preaching with the freedom he has now if he became a Catholic. Could it be possible God is pleased with him and loves him just as he is?

 

[ron77nyc]

***Excellent response! THANKS!

The CC has never taught that One can “buy or work” one’s way into heaven. Yet works are essentil as acts of charity for ones attainment of heaven simply because they conform to the Divine Will of God which is LOVE. The more and the better we manifest love, the closer we are to God; the closer we are to God, the higher the prospects are that we shall attain heaven.***

Salvation comes by faith and obedience. If you only teach the obedience part and neglect the free gift by faith part then what are people to think?

 

[Ed_Sorenson]

Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves. By their fruits you will know them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Just so, every good tree bears good fruit, and a rotten tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. So by their fruits you will know them.
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’
Then I will declare to them solemnly, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.”

Interestingly, I have heard this same pasage used against the post Vatcican II Church…

 

[una_fides]

I think Billy Graham and many others fall under this part of Matthew Chapter 7, either as perpitrators or as victims:Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves. By their fruits you will know them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Just so, every good tree bears good fruit, and a rotten tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. So by their fruits you will know them.
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’
Then I will declare to them solemnly, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.”
God tells us that if we love him, we keep his commandments which are the righteous teachings of God to give us life. And those that do not keep them are liars and the truth is not in them. I think that’s one way to find out who are being guided by the Holy Spirit.

Good post and great verse to bring up. I think producing “good fruit” goes beyond the outward appearance of one’s good works. Obviously there are good and bad people within the Church, and some of the bad also believe and teach the truth, though they themselves do not follow it. In any protestant denomination you can find people who outwardly would appear to be producing “good fruit” in the sense of good works.

The question then is not one of subjectivity but objectivity. Are these fruits producing objectively good results that correspond with the truth. Jesus himself is the way the Truth and the life. There are not many truths, but one Truth, and those who spread heresies or divisions in the body of Christ, even if they firmly believe the lies to be true, are producing bad fruit. We know that God’s grace impels people toward the truth, and we know the Catholic Church to be the fullness of the truth. Thus, we must also measure the fruits as to whether they impel toward Catholic unity. Any good works, teachings, sermons, sects, organizations, etc that do not working to accomplish that result are producing tainted fruit.

In the case of some of these evangelists, they can be wolves in sheep’s clothing without even knowing it! They may even truly believe themselves to be one of the sheep! That is the danger of the devil who twists the truth and deceives men into believing lies. God’s grace works so that if we would continue to humbly beg him for light from heaven, then he will guide and bring us to his truth and the fullness thereof within the Catholic Church.

 

[PJM]

=sidbrown;6270512]But what about the teaching on torture, whether it is allowed or not?

Dear friend in Christ, I’ll be gald to addres this issue if you can be a bit more speicific? Are you taling about whitches or today’s terriost POW’s?