Can the Church change its teaching?

[una_fides]

Interestingly, I have heard this same pasage used against the post Vatcican II Church…

Absolutely. There have been many within the post Vatican II Church that are working against Catholic unity and are trying to change the Church into something she is not. They are infecting her members with modernist heresies and will do so to their own destruction. Luckily, though the Church is in a time of crisis, Christ’s promise that the gates of hell will not prevail still ring true today just as they did during her other times of crisis. It is often times like these that the greatest of saints are born who will take a stand and defend the truth. I cannot wait to see them emerge.

 

[una_fides]

Salvation comes by faith and obedience. If you only teach the obedience part and neglect the free gift by faith part then what are people to think?

Who is neglecting the faith part? Of course Catholics believe! We recite the Creed, our profession of faith at Mass every Sunday. Just because you don’t hear priests from the pulpit yelling “you’ve got to believe to be saved” doesn’t mean that people don’t believe and doesn’t mean they’re not saved! You are not saved by just believing and obeying. You need the sacraments. They are the means by which Christ bestows his grace to men. Not by faith alone. Apart from reception of the sacraments, no one can be sure of his salvation. You can make an act of contrition, but did you have sufficient contrition to be forgiven? Was your contrition perfect? You cannot know. For this very reason, Christ instituted the sacrament of confession so that you can go and hear him forgive you himself through the words of his priest when he says “I absolve you of your sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.” At that point, you can know your sins have been forgiven. Any protestant who preaches “salvation by a free gift” and neglects to preach on the necessity of the sacraments does a much greater disservice than one who preaches on the necessity to receive the sacraments. In the Catholic Church, faith is already a given. It is a foundation that has already been laid in the sacrament of baptism. Yes we continue to grow by faith, but one does not need to tell people to believe in order for them to increase in faith. Prayer and reception of the sacraments nourishes faith in a way that preaching sola fide could never accomplish.

 

[PJM]

Originally Posted by sidbrown
I believe that there are a whole lot more than a few cases of non-Catholics following their conscience. Also, in the papal declaration and quote given, there was no mention of an angel coming at the time of death. Has there been one report of an angel coming to a person at the moment of death, and that person converting from Islam or Judaism or Buddhism? With the population of non-Catholics being in the billions, would it be unreasonable to expect one such case reported? And has any Pope declared that this is what happens to good living non-Catholics at the moment of death?

***The issue of following ones own conscience is very often, NOT properly understood, and thus puts one in Grave moral danger. God quite simply will NOT accept ones excuse for NOT knowing truth, when God has provided the means and opportunity to know it. That friend is HOWDIVINE JUSTICE operates.

MANY of the Catholics you mention above, either KNOW the truth or have heard of it, and simply chose to ignore it on a wide varity of topics. That is taking the slippery road to hell. ***

CCC 1778 "Conscience is a judgment of reason whereby the human person recognizes the moral quality of a concrete act that he is going to perform, is in the process of performing, or has already completed. In all he says and does, man is obliged to follow faithfully what he knows to be just and right. It is by the judgment of his conscience that man perceives and recognizes the prescriptions of the divine law:

Conscience is a law of the mind; yet [Christians] would not grant that it is nothing more; I mean that it was not a dictate, nor conveyed the notion of responsibility, of duty, of a threat and a promise. . . . [Conscience] is a messenger of him, who, both in nature and in grace, speaks to us behind a veil, and teaches and rules us by his representatives. Conscience is the aboriginal Vicar of Christ."

***CCC 1783 *“Conscience must be informed and moral judgment enlightened. A well-formed conscience is upright and truthful. It formulates its judgments according to reason, in conformity with the true good willed by the wisdom of the Creator. The education of conscience is indispensable for human beings who are subjected to negative influences and tempted by sin to prefer their own judgment and to reject authoritative teachings.”

***Yes God is Good, loving and merciful: GOD ALSO **HAS TO BE BOTH *JUST AND FAIR!

 

[ron77nyc]

Who is neglecting the faith part? Of course Catholics believe! We recite the Creed, our profession of faith at Mass every Sunday. Just because you don’t hear priests from the pulpit yelling “you’ve got to believe to be saved” doesn’t mean that people don’t believe and doesn’t mean they’re not saved! You are not saved by just believing and obeying. You need the sacraments. They are the means by which Christ bestows his grace to men. Not by faith alone. Apart from reception of the sacraments, no one can be sure of his salvation.

No one is sure anyway. The Catholic Church doesn’t teach assurance of salvation for anyone.

In the Catholic Church, faith is already a given. It is a foundation that has already been laid in the sacrament of baptism.

That’s my point. They are assuming that everyone who has been baptized has faith in the resurrected Jesus but that’s not always true. The sacraments alone are not enough to feed anyone. When the teaching of the word is neglected (I said teaching, not reading) people don’t grow in their understanding.

Yes we continue to grow by faith, but one does not need to tell people to believe in order for them to increase in faith.

Yes they do. The importance of faith is neglected in Catholicism. Jesus was thrilled when people had faith.

Luke 7:7 That is why I did not even consider myself worthy to come to you. But say the word, and my servant will be healed. 8 For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.” 9 When Jesus heard this, he was amazed at him, and turning to the crowd following him, **he said, “I tell you, I have not found such great faith even in Israel.” **10 Then the men who had been sent returned to the house and found the servant well.

Luke 7:50 And He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

Heb 11:6 And **without faith **it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him

Prayer and reception of the sacraments nourishes faith in a way that preaching sola fide could never accomplish.

I’m not condoning sola fide. There are 3 scripture readings at mass. That would be the time to teach the word. It seldom occurs.

Rom 10:17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

I continue to find more:

Galatians 3:2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?​

Galatians 3:5 So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?​

Colossians 3:16 Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God.

 

[Ed_Sorenson]

You need the sacraments. They are the means by which Christ bestows his grace to men. Not by faith alone. Apart from reception of the sacraments, no one can be sure of his salvation.

No one can be sure of salvation anyway. This is somewhat depressing in that one can try and be the best Catholic he can and still not make it to Heaven. We just do not know. It is difficult to be happy knowing that whatever you do, however hard you try, you still have a chance of not making it. Maybe even a good chance of not making it.

 

[una_fides]

No one is sure anyway. The Catholic Church doesn’t teach assurance of salvation for anyone.

Actually it does in a sense. If you sincerely receive the sacraments with the right disposition you can know for sure that at that moment you are in a state of sanctifying grace. Apart from the sacraments, there can be no way to know you received sanctifying grace or that your soul has been saved. That is part of the purpose of the sacraments for us sensible creatures so that we can know and point to that outward sign that Christ gave us to know that through it we received sanctifying grace.

 

[una_fides]

That’s my point. They are assuming that everyone who has been baptized has faith in the resurrected Jesus but that’s not always true. The sacraments alone are not enough to feed anyone. When the teaching of the word is neglected (I said teaching, not reading) people don’t grow in their understanding.

They must be taught concerning the truth of the sacraments so that they can receive greater fruits from a limitless source. Receiving Christ–Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity–in Holy Communion is a limitless supply of grace that you will never come close to in just reading and teaching the Bible. You need to eat his flesh and drink his blood to have life in you (John 6).

Yes they do. The importance of faith is neglected in Catholicism.

I disagree. I would say that it is assumed and demonstrated rather than outwardly preached. I would also say that it is way over emphasized outside of the Church in protestant denominations. Faith is absolutely essential as it is the foundation, and since during the days of Christ, our Lord and his disciples were laying the foundation you would expect them to speak much concerning the necessity of faith. Now that the foundation has been laid and built upon and now that we have the Church established we grow in the faith of Christ and in charity. There is no better way to increase one’s faith than to receive God Himself into our bodies in Holy Communion. No other “church” besides the Catholic Church has this ineffable gift of God himself to us nor can any other come close. I agree that work needs to be done on catechesis, but I do not agree that we try to interpret the Bible alone without the Church and apart from her tradition, which consists of the consensus of the fathers of the Church and her sacred Magisterium. Without Tradition and the Magisterium, you are two pillars short. You need all three. Sola Scriptura will not suffice, does not make sense, and itself is unbiblical.

2Th 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand firm: and hold the traditions, which you have received [from us], whether by an oral statement or by a letter of ours.

 

[ron77nyc]

No one can be sure of salvation anyway. This is somewhat depressing…

Read your bible and you will see both sides.

Matthew 24:13 "But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

Remember: The bible was written by Catholics for Catholics.

John 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

1 John 3:14 We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death.

---

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Phil 3:12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13 Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

Rom 8:38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[sidbrown]

Dear friend in Christ, I’ll be gald to addres this issue if you can be a bit more speicific? Are you taling about whitches or today’s terriost POW’s?

The papal bull ad exstirpandum

 

[sidbrown]

***The issue of following ones own conscience is very often, NOT properly understood, and thus puts one in Grave moral danger. God quite simply will NOT accept ones excuse for NOT knowing truth, when God has provided the means and opportunity to know it. That friend is HOWDIVINE JUSTICE operates.

MANY of the Catholics you mention above, either KNOW the truth or have heard of it, and simply chose to ignore it on a wide varity of topics. That is taking the slippery road to hell. ***

CCC 1778 "Conscience is a judgment of reason whereby the human person recognizes the moral quality of a concrete act that he is going to perform, is in the process of performing, or has already completed. In all he says and does, man is obliged to follow faithfully what he knows to be just and right. It is by the judgment of his conscience that man perceives and recognizes the prescriptions of the divine law:

Conscience is a law of the mind; yet [Christians] would not grant that it is nothing more; I mean that it was not a dictate, nor conveyed the notion of responsibility, of duty, of a threat and a promise. . . . [Conscience] is a messenger of him, who, both in nature and in grace, speaks to us behind a veil, and teaches and rules us by his representatives. Conscience is the aboriginal Vicar of Christ."

***CCC 1783 ***“Conscience must be informed and moral judgment enlightened. A well-formed conscience is upright and truthful. It formulates its judgments according to reason, in conformity with the true good willed by the wisdom of the Creator. The education of conscience is indispensable for human beings who are subjected to negative influences and tempted by sin to prefer their own judgment and to reject authoritative teachings.”

***Yes God is Good, loving and merciful: GOD ALSO **HAS TO BE BOTH *****JUST AND FAIR!

So Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, and Muslims are not saved after all?

 

[una_fides]

No one can be sure of salvation anyway. This is somewhat depressing in that one can try and be the best Catholic he can and still not make it to Heaven. We just do not know. It is difficult to be happy knowing that whatever you do, however hard you try, you still have a chance of not making it. Maybe even a good chance of not making it.

We can be sure if we follow Christ and trust in him. The picture is not so bleak. Christ has given us more than enough gifts. He has given us himself in Holy Communion. All we must do is follow. Yes, it is difficult as are the best things in this life, but that is the point. As St. Paul says, we are runners in the race seeking to attain the prize of eternal life. In the process we must bring our bodies into subjection and put on Christ and trust him him. Have hope! It is a divine virtue you received in baptism. God is leading. We must follow.

 

[ron77nyc]

They must be taught concerning the truth of the sacraments so that they can receive greater fruits from a limitless source. Receiving Christ–Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity–in Holy Communion is a limitless supply of grace that you will never come close to in just reading and teaching the Bible. You need to eat his flesh and drink his blood to have life in you (John 6).

Let’s do both; the sacraments and the bible. Who says we have to choose one or the other?

2Th 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand firm: and hold the traditions, which you have received [from us], whether by an oral statement or by a letter of ours.

Preaching the word was part of tradition. When did that change?

Acts 2:42 They were continually devoting themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.

2 Tim 4:2 Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage–with great patience and careful instruction.

 

[una_fides]

Let’s do both; the sacraments and the bible. Who says we have to choose one or the other?

We don’t. We receive both. Go to Mass! You won’t be receiving the sacraments outside of the Church.

Preaching the word was part of tradition. When did that change?
2 Tim 4:2 Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage–with great patience and careful instruction.

Scripture also encourages us to pray for our leaders that God has placed above us. if we feel that they need to do a better job from the pulpit, then we can let them know that. But I wouldn’t leave the Catholic Church just because I felt they needed to do a better job at giving Sunday homilies. We need the sacraments! They are how we receive within us the divine life of God.

Think of Christ’s Incarnation. The sacraments incarnate into the flesh the grace of Christ.

 

[PJM]

=Ed Sorenson;6273882]No one can be sure of salvation anyway. This is somewhat depressing in that one can try and be the best Catholic he can and still not make it to Heaven. We just do not know. It is difficult to be happy knowing that whatever you do, however hard you try, you still have a chance of not making it. Maybe even a good chance of not making it.

**
Smile Ed, God LOVES YOU**!

***Four of the Seven Sacraments are given to us and Instituted by Jesus precisely to make heaven for Catholics VERY POSSIBLE! [Yes there is a perference from God for members of the Only Church He founded!]

Baptism with the forgivess of all sins, and the* latent [payback] effects of sin.

Confession / Rconcillation where Catholics can know with 100% certainty that all Confessed sins are forgiven. NOT GUESSING, ACTUALLY and FACTUALLY KNOW:thumbsup:

So Ed, if you go and make a GOOD and complete Confession regullarly, we can’t presume, but we ought to know the state of our own souls.** If we are free of Mortal sins, we can know THAT WE ARE GOING TO HEAVEN**. What we do not know is how much time [if any] we will have to spend in Purgatory getting perfected by God; but still HEAVEV IS ASSURRED. IF we ar not fre of Mortal sin; you know how to fix that problem! Do it! And ONE can’t comit a Mortal sin AND NOT KNOW IT! IMPOSIBLE!**

**Eucharist **where more grace is available to us than any other way. Grace to avoid sin, and do good for others, [works that payback the penalities of sin.]

The Last Rites that work like a combination of Baptism and Confesion [normally part of the LR] an COMPLETE fogiveness of all sins and thre latent effects.

Ed, there is NO GOOD REASON for any informed practicing Catholic to fear hell. NONE! Use the tools God gives us and stop worrying.

In addition to all of this is the AID of Indulgences which also payback the acured penalities fo past sins.

Can we know for sure? No, BUT we can know, should know and have FAITH! God is on our side!

 

[Ed_Sorenson]

We can be sure if we follow Christ and trust in him. The picture is not so bleak. Christ has given us more than enough gifts. He has given us himself in Holy Communion. All we must do is follow. Yes, it is difficult as are the best things in this life, but that is the point. As St. Paul says, we are runners in the race seeking to attain the prize of eternal life. In the process we must bring our bodies into subjection and put on Christ and trust him him. Have hope! It is a divine virtue you received in baptism. God is leading. We must follow.

Hope is the only thing that really keeps us sane. At the same time I live every day scared to death that I might die and go to hell no matter what I do. In the end, how much one hopes really means nothing. It’s what eventually happens. You know the old saying; hope in one hand and blank in the other and see which gets filled first.

 

[Ed_Sorenson]

Ed, there is NO GOOD REASON for any informed practicing Catholic to fear hell. NONE! Use the tools God gives us and stop worrying.

I could be wrong but I’m pretty sure this is not what the Church teaches. It teaches to use the tools and hopefully you will make it to Heaven. But you never know. In addition, I think it might be easier than you think to be in mortal sin and not know it, at least clearly. What I mean to say is that it is human nature to rationalize why something may or may not be a mortal sin. If you rationalize wrong, you are still guilty of the sin. No? I mean, you could die and God could say you didn’t give enough money to the Church or you didn’t pray enough and so off to hell with you. Now, you might have rationalized that you gave enough, but…

Smile Ed, God LOVES YOU

I believe God loves me. But I have this horrible feeling the Church is out to get me. One mistep and Boom! Off to hell with you! I find myself wondering if the Church today if really what Jesus wanted. Often it seems like the Church is interested in keeping it’s own power. One way to do this is to keep the parishiners afraid of hell for not doing exactly what they say and completed subjected to that power. I find myself not loving the Church and my very faith in God questioned while I go through the motions at Church, more as a safeguard than anything else, in case my feelings are betraying me. Going to Mass, for me, is not rewarding at all. I’m there because if I don’t go, I’ll for sure go to hell. Not because I want too.

 

[surritter]

In the end, how much one hopes really means nothing. It’s what eventually happens.

On the first point quoted above, hope certainly means something, but it is not the only thing. In the end, it’s our actions that mean everything. And if you have taken the actions prescribed by Jesus through His Church to be in friendship with God, you have nothing to fear.

If you have sinned in such a way as to break that friendship (mortal sin), then you would have something to fear. But this can be rectified by contrition and going to confession! If it’s mortal sin that you’re worried about, perhaps you should learn more about what the three conditions are for a sin to be mortal.

On the second sentence quoted above (“It’s what eventually happens”), that philosophy is called fatalism, and is not in line with what the Catholic Church teaches about our eternal destiny!

 

[una_fides]

Hope is the only thing that really keeps us sane. At the same time I live every day scared to death that I might die and go to hell no matter what I do. In the end, how much one hopes really means nothing. It’s what eventually happens. You know the old saying; hope in one hand and blank in the other and see which gets filled first.

Ed,
I’m really sorry to hear you have so much fear. I realize fear is an emotion and that emotions sometimes cannot be entirely controlled. But honestly, if you are making frequent use of the sacraments, you have nothing to fear. God wants you to be saved. In fact it is according to his will that you be saved. He has done everything and bestowed upon you so many blessings to ensure that this happens. All it takes is our cooperation. We have to trust in God that He will help us get through our sins. They key again is regular confession and reception of Communion in a state of grace. If you are frequenting these two sacraments regularly (like weekly or bi-weekly confession) and Mass every Sunday, you should be fine. Keep praying and trusting in God and his infinite mercy!

I go to confession usually once a week, and I always pray the same prayers in my missal. They are amazing and really put everything into perspective. Here is one portion that particularly gives us hope by trusting in God and his Goodness and Mercy:
“I know thou desirest not the death of a sinner, but that he may be converted and live. I know Thy mercies are above all Thy works; and I most confidently hope, that as in Thy mercy Thou hast spared me so long, and hast now given me this desire of returning to Thee, so Thou wilt finish the work Thou hast begun, and bring me to a perfect reconciliation with Thee.”

Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and do not rely on your own insight. In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will direct your steps. (Proverbs 3:5-6)

 

[Ed_Sorenson]

On the first point quoted above, hope certainly means something, but it is not the only thing. In the end, it’s our actions that mean everything. And if you have taken the actions prescribed by Jesus through His Church to be in friendship with God, you have nothing to fear.

If you have sinned in such a way as to break that friendship (mortal sin), then you would have something to fear. But this can be rectified by contrition and going to confession! If it’s mortal sin that you’re worried about, perhaps you should learn more about what the three conditions are for a sin to be mortal.

On the second sentence quoted above (“It’s what eventually happens”), that philosophy is called fatalism, and is not in line with what the Catholic Church teaches about our eternal destiny!

What eventually happens in not the most important thing?

 

[Ed_Sorenson]

Ed,
I’m really sorry to hear you have so much fear. I realize fear is an emotion and that emotions sometimes cannot be entirely controlled. But honestly, if you are making frequent use of the sacraments, you have nothing to fear. God wants you to be saved. In fact it is according to his will that you be saved. He has done everything and bestowed upon you so many blessings to ensure that this happens. All it takes is our cooperation. We have to trust in God that He will help us get through our sins. They key again is regular confession and reception of Communion in a state of grace. If you are frequenting these two sacraments regularly (like weekly or bi-weekly confession) and Mass every Sunday, you should be fine. Keep praying and trusting in God and his infinite mercy!

I go to confession usually once a week, and I always pray the same prayers in my missal. They are amazing and really put everything into perspective. Here is one portion that particularly gives us hope by trusting in God and his Goodness and Mercy:
“I know thou desirest not the death of a sinner, but that he may be converted and live. I know Thy mercies are above all Thy works; and I most confidently hope, that as in Thy mercy Thou hast spared me so long, and hast now given me this desire of returning to Thee, so Thou wilt finish the work Thou hast begun, and bring me to a perfect reconciliation with Thee.”

Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and do not rely on your own insight. In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will direct your steps. (Proverbs 3:5-6)

Fear is what keeps me going to the Sacrements. I don’t go to Church or confession because it’s fun. We can trust in the Lord all we want but if we end up in hell all of that trust doesn’t matter at all.

I believe God loves me. But I have this horrible feeling the Church is out to get me. One mistep and Boom! Off to hell with you! I find myself wondering if the Church today if really what Jesus wanted. Often it seems like the Church is interested in keeping it’s own power. One way to do this is to keep the parishiners afraid of hell for not doing exactly what they say and completed subjected to that power. I find myself not loving the Church and my very faith in God questioned while I go through the motions at Church, more as a safeguard than anything else, in case my feelings are betraying me. Going to Mass, for me, is not rewarding at all. I’m there because if I don’t go, I’ll for sure go to hell. Not because I want too.