Can the Church change its teaching?

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The Church does teach the Word of God!
You might be able to convince me if I didn’t know any better but I have a whole family of Catholic brothers and sisters, nieces, nephews, cousins, aunts, uncles and friends who have been attending Mass their whole life and they know nothing about scripture. If you tell people they can’t study it by themselves and they can’t understand it by themselves and then you don’t teach them, it’s a self made ignorance.
 
The church has clearly taught one thing (damnation of infants) and not the other (salvation of infants), and people who have nothing formally stated on the salvation side to counterbalance the scale would rather think ‘we just don’t know for sure’.
This is an excellent point. I don’t think most people want to really think about what the Church’s teaching really is. The rest is just fluff intended to soften the blow. If not, please someone show me that there is any dogmatic counterbalance to the dogmatic teaching that the unbaptized go to hell.

It really amazes me and challenges my faith that the Church can dogmatically define things like the sinlessness of Mary but when it comes the fate of the innocents, it’s hell unless something happens that we just don’t know about.
 
You might be able to convince me if I didn’t know any better but I have a whole family of Catholic brothers and sisters, nieces, nephews, cousins, aunts, uncles and friends who have been attending Mass their whole life and they know nothing about scripture.
My experience growing up in a very traditional Catholic family was that the only scripture that was commonly read was that written in the Missle. I can’t ever remember pulling out the Bible for any kind of lesson other than to learn the different parts and how it was put toghether. I know there were a few times where Mom had us look up certain readings but I think it was more connected with learning how the Bible was put together. Reading the Bible was certainly not something that was considered important. What was important was to learn the Catechism.
 
You might be able to convince me if I didn’t know any better but I have a whole family of Catholic brothers and sisters, nieces, nephews, cousins, aunts, uncles and friends who have been attending Mass their whole life and they know nothing about scripture. If you tell people they can’t study it by themselves and they can’t understand it by themselves and then you don’t teach them, it’s a self made ignorance.
There are 3 readings of Scripture at Mass. The homily is supposed to be an explanation of the passages. Either the priest as the parish you attended wasn’t doing his job, your relatives weren’t paying attention, or possibly you have a different idea of what it means to “teach Scriptures.” If by “teaching Scripture” you mean telling people to read it on their own and believe whatever conclusions they like and claim they are being “led by the Spirit” then you are correct the Church by those standards would not be teaching Scripture.
 
My experience growing up in a very traditional Catholic family was that the only scripture that was commonly read was that written in the Missle. I can’t ever remember pulling out the Bible for any kind of lesson other than to learn the different parts and how it was put toghether. I know there were a few times where Mom had us look up certain readings but I think it was more connected with learning how the Bible was put together. Reading the Bible was certainly not something that was considered important. What was important was to learn the Catechism.
You mean the Catechism, which teaches in a formulated and precise way the teachings from the Bible in a simplified way for people to understand?
 
Originally Posted by ron77nyc

I was a Catholic before Vatican II. I went to Catholic high school in the 1960’s when they had printing presses and we all knew how to read. The bible was never once mentioned. It’s ironic that a Catholic book became a Protestant book.

Mal: As am I. There is the Epistle and Holy Gospel at every Mass or have you forgotten? Secondly - Pope Leo XIII ordained that “the faithful who spend at least a quarter of an hour in reading Holy Scripture with the great reverence due to the Word of God and after the manner of spiritual reading may gain an indulgence of 300 days.” A plenary indulgence may be gained once a month by those who make private reading a daily practice. Third - In Canon law of 1917 - Catholics were refused permission to read unauthorized versions of Scripture due to the numerous editing and re editing done by misguided non catholics.

As to the Topic of “FEAR” Ed Writes : Fear is what keeps me going to the Sacrements. I don’t go to Church or confession because it’s fun. We can trust in the Lord all we want but if we end up in hell all of that trust doesn’t matter at all.

The reality of Hell should sober all of us. But the Christian Virtues We know as Faith Hope and Chairty are virtues for a reason. Certainly we must have Faith. That is where our pursuit of Heaven begins. So now if we are to examine HOPE and CHARITY what exactly are they? Well we know that having Faith and Belief in GOD isnt enough for as St James teaches Faith without works is Dead. And we also know that the Seven Gifts of the Holy Ghost are Wisdom Knowledge Understanding Counsel Piety Fortitude and Fear of Offending GOD. We all know that St Paul spoke of Charity being the most important of all the Virtues. The practice of Our Religion can engenders an awareness through signal graces. Therefore - if by grace our path isnt as GOD wants it - perhaps our awareness of the reality of HELL isnt a bad thing. The largest successs that Satan has is in his ability to make men believe he doesnt exist. We as Catholics understand that Hell is a reality just as Satan is a reality. Dispair is something that is diametrically opposed to the virtue of Hope. Satan has no power over us if we wrap ourselves the Sacrted Heart of Jesus and in the mantle of the Blessed Virgin Mary and the Saints. The Virtue of Hope is TRUST in GOD. “If you love me keep my commandments” And we know the Ten Commandments can be summarized in love of GOD with your entire heart soul and mind and your neighbor as yourself. If you love GOD go to Mass everyday or as many days as posssible. Pray a morning offereing. Pray the Angelus at dawn noon and dusk. Pray the Holy Rosary of the Blessed Virgin Mary. Pray the Evening Prayers every night and throughly examine your conscience and ask OUR LORD to bring to mind the actions you have commited that have offended him. Say an Act of Contrition and you will be aware of these Sins when you go to Confession (And if Mortal Sin confess as soon as possible) Remeber - GOD doesnt want any of us to end up in Hell. But he likewise doesnt want any of us in despair either. He calls us to Action - to take up our cross and follow and he will help us bear that cross. With The Penitential Season of Lent less than a week away - what better time than now to offer penance / suffering / sacrifice / mortification to subject our senses to our spirit and to each become a better catholic than we were yesterday. Dont despair. Act.

Pax
 
If by “teaching Scripture” you mean telling people to read it on their own and believe whatever conclusions they like and claim they are being “led by the Spirit” then you are correct the Church by those standards would not be teaching Scripture.
No, I mean having a bible study led by a qualified teacher or encouraging people to at least read the early church fathers’ interpretation of scripture. It seems the Church has never trained anyone to do that because they don’t want to do that. What happens then is people go to a Protestant bible study or they develop little groups and start their own churches. How is it a Catholic book if Catholics don’t read it?
 
Scripture clearly asserts that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth and has been established to settle matters of disagreement. .
Why then did not the Roman Church try to dialogue peacefully with the Eastern Church in 1054? Instead a representativie from the Roman Church barged into a High Mass at St. Sophia in Constantinople and flatly declared them to be excommunicated? Where was the Christian and charitable attempt to settle questions peacefully ? Was it charitable to interrupt a religious service like that?
 
Pope Leo XIII ordained that "the faithful who spend at least a quarter of an hour in reading Holy Scripture with the great reverence due to the Word of God and after the manner of spiritual reading may gain an indulgence of 300 days.
This is very interesting. I looked up Pope Leo XIII and this is what I found. What happened between 1902 and 2008? No one got the message.

newadvent.org/cathen/09169a.htm
To excite Catholic students to rival non-Catholics in the study of the Scriptures, and at the same time to guide their studies, he published the “Providentissimus Deus” (1893), which won the admiration even of Protestants, and in 1902 he appointed a Biblical Commission.

novaresearch.eu/index.php/news_stories/4
The XII Ordinary General Assembly of the Synod of Bishops, was held from 5th-26th October 2008 and, presided over by Pope Benedict XVI, took as its theme “The Word of God in the Life and Mission of the Church”. On the evening of Sunday the 6th October, Pope Benedict kicked off a Bible-reading marathon that lasted for seven days and needed 1,200 people to complete the task. Orthodox and Evangelical church leaders also participated in the reading that finished with the Book of Revelation a week later.

According to the Venetian philosopher Massimo Cacciari, the Roman Catholic Church is to blame for this lack of biblical knowledge as it has kept a monopoly on the teaching of the Bible and imposes Episcopal authorisation upon those who teach religious education. So despite the fact that the 40 years following Vatican II have seen a steady increase in the number of homes possessing a Bible and the onset of the Internet age and multimedia communication, for many Italians the Bible remains a closed, mysterious book.

Source: La Stampa online, TimesOnline, ADNKronos international
 
No, I mean having a bible study led by a qualified teacher or encouraging people to at least read the early church fathers’ interpretation of scripture. It seems the Church has never trained anyone to do that because they don’t want to do that. What happens then is people go to a Protestant bible study or they develop little groups and start their own churches. How is it a Catholic book if Catholics don’t read it?
I think this may be the crux of the problem in terms of where is the bible in the home. If we look back at biblical history before the institution of the levitate caste, we would see the a father leads a household, a mother keeps it together and in love, and the firstborn son presides over the family in ceremony as the household priest. In this context, we see a father as the overseer (bishop role), the mother as the heart of the family (church role), and the firstborn son as the the one performing the sacrifice (priest role). In this context, we have a family temple ritual in the home and the sacrifice is a lamb or other animal while the teachings are form the old testament scriptures.

Take that image and think about the larger Church family and the individual families we are in. Notice the parallel. However, in the small bible study groups, we can have some elemental of that but lose the full liturgy that has its roots in a thousand year of Jewish History before the Incarnation. Yes it is a good idea to have bible studies, social gatherings, and movie nights in the parish to *augment *the parishioners as needed pastorally. However, all should be done with the Church in mind.

What you said, I’ll re-quote: “What happens then is people go to a Protestant bible study or they develop little groups and start their own churches.” And so it has happened and happened and happened. Luther looked at what scriptures he has learned and instead of going back to his abbot to discuss it, he went off to start his own little church. Same with Calvin who was unwilling to look back to the Church for guidance. Same with the thousands of protestant groups. It is a dangerous practice if not done with the Heart of the Church.

Yet for 2000 thousand years, the Church has been doing this. Each time we go to Mass, we get the full liturgy. In this context, the priests who are “qualified teacher” are leading the people in a “bible study” each Liturgy of the Word. It’s done the same way as in the Apostle Days. However, this “bible study” leads to something much greater. We take all our concerns, all the thoughts we have both from our lives and from the scriptural readings, and we share it with God when we bring up the offertory. God is physically joining us in our bible study and making it into a true sacrifice in the Liturgy of the Eucharist. Personally, that’s the best bible study ever! And it is the best family gathering ever! And it is the best teaching ever! And so on.
They devoted themselves to the teachings of the apostles and to communal life, to the breaking of the bread and to the prayers…Every day they devoted themselves to meeting together in the temple area and to breaking bread in their homes. They ate their meals with exultation and sincerity of the heart, praising God." (Acts 2:24, 46-47a)
Let me take the quote above from the scriptures itself and reemphasize my point. Every day they “devoted themselves to meeting together” and there was the breaking of the word which are the teachings of the apostles. The apostles did not spoke randomly, they spoke what Jesus taught and what the Scriptures foretold of Jesus. They also re-teach the people their heritage and what God has been doing over the last thousand years for them. And what God is doing now. Looking over time this 2000 year old tradition of scriptural study is the Liturgy of the Word at Mass.

In this context, does it not seem that Jerome’s statement “Ignorance of the Scriptures is ignorance of Christ” take on a whole new meaning? What happens when we intentionally ignore the readings at Church? What happens when we decide we are going to arrive at Church late because the only time we have to participate is going up for communion. These deliberate actions merits St. Jerome’s direct condemnation. We must be active participants in this 2000 year old tradition of scriptural studies.

However, their day does not finish with just the teachings and the scriptures. Because they could not break bread at the temple, they went as a community to the wealthiest Jewish Christian home (because only these homes had enough room for the community) and broke bread. Here we see that every scriptural and teaching studies end with the Liturgy of the Eucharist. This was not just some party. It was definitely the second half of the Mass. The phrase “breaking of the bread” is the first term to describe the Eucharistic offering and meal. We can obviously see why the Eucharist is important in itself. But it does not exists in itself ordinarily. It is what completes the Liturgy of the Word in one sense. Without the Liturgy of the Word, we are missing the history that leads up to our salvation. Without the Liturgy of the Eucharist, our scriptural study is fragmented like the hearts of the Israel nation and the world before Christ’s Incarnation. The scriptural study is completed by the Liturgy of the Eucharist.

[continued on next post]
 
In the Mass, I see the poetry of the God in work retelling our salvation history. And in this context, we see the fulfillment of the ancient family traditions of the Jewish people with the father as the overseer, the mother as the heart, and the firstborn son as the minister of sacrifices. This is fulfilled in the Mass, with God being the overseer, the Church as the heart, and the priest standing in persona Christi (as our head so we unite with him) as the minister of the Sacrifice.

Note they did this everyday because they could. We still have Mass everyday, but it is weekly attended. Note also, when they devoted themselves to the teachings of the apostle, it was a top down situation. The apostles taught the people what Christ taught them. The people listen and lived it out in their communal life. It is not a “I think this. No, it looks like this. Wait what about this.” type of teaching and meeting. It parallels the way Jesus teaches the apostle as disciples in His ministry. We are the laity, the new disciples are meant to actively participate in their hearts and minds and then in our actions after the dismissal.

Honestly, we cannot blame the Church for continuing this same tradition. And truthfully, more important than the call for more bible studies, it is the call for longer and richer homilies full of scriptural insights and taken from the great teachings of the Church in order to prepare us for Christ’s Real Presense. We should be strengthening the Apostolic tradition of scriptural studies we already have. Instead of hoping Mass will end by the 1 hour mark, we should be wishing the opposite. How can we hear 2000 years of scriptural exploration if it is only 15 minutes 52 times of the year (13 hours worth of homilies a year). And at the same time it is our duty to pray for others, but especially for ourselves, to go to Mass every day and be active so we can learn the teachings. At the same time, we should pray that the Church is abundant in faithful and God-willed priests and bishops.
 
The Church has always put great emphasis on the sacraments as if that was all you needed to live a successful Christian life. Pope Leo XIII knew it wasn’t enough back in1893. He gave specific instructions on how biblical education is to be conducted in Catholic schools and it fell by the wayside. Who is responsible for that?

vatican.va/holy_father/leo_xiii/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_18111893_providentissimus-deus_en.html
PROVIDENTISSIMUS DEUS
ENCYCLICAL OF POPE LEO XIII
ON THE STUDY OF HOLY SCRIPTURE

`The arms of our warfare are not carnal but mighty unto God.’ "(9) Let all, therefore, especially the novices of the ecclesiastical army, understand how deeply the sacred Books should be esteemed, and with what eagerness and reverence they should approach this great arsenal of heavenly arms.

But the teaching should result in a definite and ascertained method of interpretation-and therefore the Professor should equally avoid the mistake of giving a mere taste of every Book, and of dwelling at too great length on a part of one Book. If most schools cannot do what is done in the large institutions-that is, take the students through the whole of one or two Books continuously and with a certain development-yet at least those parts which are selected should be treated with suitable fulness; in such a way that the students may learn from the sample that is thus put before them to love and use the remainder of the sacred Book during the whole of their lives.
 
Ron writes : This is very interesting. I looked up Pope Leo XIII and this is what I found.

Mal : What does that have to do with the subject matter being discussed? One guy writes that his mom never read the Bible and she apparently decided that scriptural reading wasnt important - and you say you have relatives that never read the Bible so therefore all of that trumps Holy Scripture and an indulgence of 300 days from the Chair of St Peter? Do I have your argument corrrect?

For all intents and purposes that is simply misinformation at best and at worst an irresponsible shallow blanket condemnation of what Scripture represents in Catholicism. Perhaps if you had placed greater importance on it - you would value Catholicism.

Catholic Doctrine regarding Scripture is this : The Old and New Testament Scriptures are the divinely-revealed, written Word of God, Catholics venerate the Scriptures as they venerate the Sacraments. But Catholics do not believe that God has given us His divine Revelation in Christ exclusively through Scripture. Catholics also believe that God’s Revelation comes to us through the Apostolic Tradition and teaching authority of the Church.

Jesus didnt write with his hand a single word of Holy Scripture. Nothing prevented him from doing so.

In short - The Holy Scriptures are part of the Deposit of Faith.

To say Catholics do not value them benefit from them or use them is essentially a fabrication.

Pax
 
Ron writes : This is very interesting. I looked up Pope Leo XIII and this is what I found.

Mal : What does that have to do with the subject matter being discussed?
It deals with the changing teachings and inconsistencies of the Church throughout history. The early fathers encouraged scripture for sermons and teaching. Pope Leo XIII made an attempt to go back to the scriptures for spiritual nourishment and now Pope Benedict is trying to revive the importance of scripture reading. It’s a change in church teaching.
 
Ron :

The Church has always put great emphasis on the sacraments as if that was all you needed to live a successful Christian life. Pope Leo XIII knew it wasn’t enough back in1893. He gave specific instructions on how biblical education is to be conducted in Catholic schools and it fell by the wayside. Who is responsible for that?

Mal: And Protestants have always put their entire emphasis on unauthorized edited and re edited false scripture which they self interpret (Despite what Scripture says to the contrary) and use as the sole source of faith. When you attend Sunday Mass as a Catholic - the Epistle and Gospel is read and explained by the Priest who has the Authorization to teach its correct meaning. So yes Holy Mother the Church teaches the Word of GOD. Now if after Mass the Catholic is Predisposed to read more Scripture - they can always obtain a Copy of the Douay Rheims English Translation of the Latin Vulgate which has likewise contains notes so that the Catholic has a guide to the Scriptures. Not to mention the fact that if the Catholic is so inclined - they can read dissertations from the Numerous Saints who have written volumns on the Meaning of Scriptural passages.

Now as to your assertion that the Church has failed to teach - that is merely your opinion. And look no further than your own posts for proof. Laity lose their faith when they do not place the importance they should on things such as Scriptural readings and Prayer and frequenting the Sacraments. Jesus told us to take up our cross and follow. Nothing prevents us from doing so . So place the blame where it lies. Lazy Catholics who expect the Church to save them through no effort of their own. Religion requires effort. Your question is therefore flawed in that it assumes the Church has a responsibility to force Catholics to do that which they are to do of their own free will out of a fidelity and love of GOD.

Pax
 
For all intents and purposes that is simply misinformation at best and at worst an irresponsible shallow blanket condemnation of what Scripture represents in Catholicism. Perhaps if you had placed greater importance on it - you would value Catholicism.

To say Catholics do not value them benefit from them or use them is essentially a fabrication.

Pax
Your statements prove to me that you judge the entire history of the Catholic Church by what you have seen in your lifetime in your part of the world. This previous post supports what I’m saying about differences in teaching at various times in various regions.
After reading a few more of Ron’s posts, it just dawn on me, is Limbo taught in every language and nation by Catholic theologens for a while? I’m just curious because I don’t remember being taught or have this mentioned by anyone in my Vietnamese home. The first time I heard it was in college I think by non-Catholic Christian groups. I had no idea what they were talking about.
 
Your question is therefore flawed in that it assumes the Church has a responsibility to force Catholics to do that which they are to do of their own free will out of a fidelity and love of GOD.
The Church forces us to do all kinds of things with the threat of hell if we do not do exactly as we are told. It would be nice sometime to feel as I could go to Mass becasue I wanted too, not because I had too. You have to respect the protestants who go to church even though they don’t believe they have too. They are doing it because they want too.
 
The Church forces us to do all kinds of things with the threat of hell if we do not do exactly as we are told. It would be nice sometime to feel as I could go to Mass becasue I wanted too, not because I had too. You have to respect the protestants who go to church even though they don’t believe they have too. They are doing it because they want too.
Ed, often the punishment (even up to and including hell) is not from the act itself.

Rather, it is due to disobedience to the Church, which is our Mother – and the lawful authority. Eating meat on Friday has never been intrinsically evil, contrary to what a few folks on this thread probably think. Instead, eating meat on Friday was formerly sinful (outside of Lent) because we would have been disobeying the Church, who made the rule for our benefit.

FYI – you should indeed go to Mass because you want to.
 
In the current issue of the Tidings newspaper, the Catholic newspaper of LA, there is an article by Father Richard Benson on Slavery in the USA. (p. 12, Feb. 12, 2010). Father writes that there were Catholic clergy who owned slaves and who sold them, rather than freeing them. And he states the following: “American bishops never forbade slave-owners to take Communion, even during the Civil War.”
This then would appear to be a rather serious change in Catholic teaching on slavery.
 
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