Can the Devil use the Bible?

[JRKH]

Not entirely sure what that means. What I meant was that a fair deal of “deviltry” takes place at some of those reuninions, which explains why I seldom go, and on the rare occassion I do go, I don’t linger long.

Usually this means I leave before the giant tub o’ margueritas and trays of jello shooters come out.

But I digress.

“Black Irish” appears to be a rather loose term refering to the color of ones hair. Here is a link I found.
straightdope.com/classics/a930730.html

When I started reading about the “Black this and Black that”, it was the first thing that popped into my head.

By the way -
Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut in the discussion here. I’m going through answers now and hope to post some more later.

 

[JRKH]

OK. After reviewing the posts and doing some summarizing I came up with this.

Question”
Can the Devil Use the Bible to further his own agenda?

Responses:
First look at Matthew 4:6-7
for it is written: That he hath given his angels charge over thee, and in their hands shall they bear thee up, lest perhaps thou dash thy foot against a stone. Jesus said to him: It is written again: Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
Clearly Satan is trying to use scripture to trip up Jesus.

The Bible is a great book that can enhance someones faith tenfold.
It can also destroy someones faith if they are in doubt of Christianity.
Therefore, I would assume that the Devil does use the Bible when it is convenient for it to do so. I would assume the Devil would use the most doubtful parts of the Bible (thats up to anyones interpretation as to which part is doubtful) to kill faith.

I believe that Satan has used the Bible by leading millions astray of Christ’s One Church by planting seeds of doubt in their minds about what Christ truly intended when He said Eat My Flesh, etc. By planting those seeds, the evil one pulls them further away from the Truth until they are so far away they are in the grip of evil and living so contrary to what Christ intended, that they fall all the way to hell.

Question:
Now let me rephrase the question.
Can, and does, Satan use the Word of God to further his own agenda?
God’s Word is written on our hearts. The Holy Spirit writes it there.
Can Satan use this to further his agenda?

Answers:
I believe he does…like I said before, he started that garbage in the garden…questioning God
He tried to seperate Adam and Eve from God and possibly each other…then they could not produce godly offspring to further God’s plan (ultimately Christ).

Yes

I would say no. but he can use people to misenterpret God’s word for their own distraction.

Satan’s power is in the mind, which can negatively affect the heart and the Word written there. Satan cannot change that Word in our hearts, but he can affect its meaning through his power over the mind.

…I think that you have worded that wrong… it is not that the Word of God becomes susceptible to Satan once it enters the corporeal world; it is our human intellect (mind) that Satan is able to manipulate by rendering a different meaning to God’s Word. He is a spiritual being, thusly he understands God’s realm better than most humans and is able to present half-truths or even hide from us the true meaning of the Word of God… but he can only do this through our assistance as we listen to the creature rather than the Creator!

Question:
Do you believe it possible for humans to capture in any human language, God’s Holy Word with perfect clarity and understanding?

Answers:
(W)e have imperfect means in the sense of our human-ness, but not in the sense of the Holy Spirit who provides us with that means.

if you mean the actual Word of God… No! Only God’s own Holy Spirit can communicate to our spirits God’s Word; hence Satan’s advantage, he utilizes our humanity to pull us away from that relationship with the Holy Spirit: he floods our spiritual connection with temporal values (vanity, greed, intellectualism, egotism, superiority complex…) dampening our ability to adhere to the Holy Spirit.
(W)e are not doomed to our imperfect means… but we have to learn to submit to the Holy Spirit’s Guidance!:

God’s Word is “living and active” - we could sooner capture a sunbeam than make a perfect translation of what is in origin a Divine Word.

So can we assume the following based on the above answers?
(Assuming a proper dispositon toward God.)

1. God reveals His Word (Truth) to us through the Holy Spirit.
2. This Word is “written on our hearts.” That is, given to our spirit.
3. To record this Word, we must pass it from our spirit (soul) through our human faculties to create the words on a page. (Still assuming a proper disposition and guidance of the Holy Spirit)
4. The process in step four above becomes suseptable to Satan’s influence by, a) a subtle manipulation of our temporal values and weaknesses and/or, b) The limitations of human language to capture the Glory of God.
5. Since it is impossible to completelay and accurately capture the fullness of God’s Word using purely human words, no written text can rightly be called the “Inerrant Word of God.” Because….
6. The value of any inspired text is wholly dependant on the proper disposition of the person reading it and not on any intrinsic value of the written text itself.

So – A properly disposed person, guided by the Spirit, needs no specific text to understand God’s will in his/her life, while an improperly disposed person cannot know God’s true will regardless of the text they try to use.

Please comment.

Peace
James

 

[jcrichton]

…When I started reading about the “Black this and Black that”, it was the first thing that popped into my head…

***Hi, JRKH!

…have you noticed how secular society wants Yahweh God out of their precious little lives… yet when it comes to blame (natural catastrophe) why is it that they always call it an act of God?

Maran atha!

Angel***

 

[jcrichton]

1. Since it is impossible to completelay and accurately capture the fullness of God’s Word using purely human words, no written text can rightly be called the “Inerrant Word of God.” Because….
2. The value of any inspired text is wholly dependant on the proper disposition of the person reading it and not on any intrinsic value of the written text itself.

So – A properly disposed person, guided by the Spirit, needs no specific text to understand God’s will in his/her life, while an improperly disposed person cannot know God’s true will regardless of the text they try to use.

Please comment.

Peace
James

***Hi, James!

I think that you have responded to the underlined query as #5 seeks to follow reason but is disputed by your summation (A properly disposed person, guided by the Spirit…): the inerrancy of the Holy Scriptures does not depend upon who reads them but who Inspired the Sacred Writings:

20 Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation. 21 For prophecy came not by the will of man at any time: but the holy men of God spoke, inspired by the Holy Ghost. *** (2 St. Peter 1:20-21)

The Word of God is unchanging and eternal, revealing God’s Salvific Plan which existed from the Beginning and was revealed only according to His Will, and at the Appointed Time:

8 Whom having not seen, you love: in whom also now, though you see him not, you believe: and believing shall rejoice with joy unspeakable and glorified; 9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. 10 Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and diligently searched, who prophesied of the grace to come in you. 11 Searching what or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ in them did signify: when it foretold those sufferings that are in Christ, and the glories that should follow: 12 To whom it was revealed, that not to themselves, but to you they ministered those things which are now declared to you by them that have preached the gospel to you, the Holy Ghost being sent down from heaven, on whom the angels desire to look. 13 Wherefore having the loins of your mind girt up, being sober, trust perfectly in the grace which is offered you in the revelation of Jesus Christ, 14 As children of obedience, not fashioned according to the former desires of your ignorance: 15 But according to him that hath called you, who is holy, be you also in all manner of conversation holy: 16 Because it is written: You shall be holy, for I am holy. 17 And if you invoke as Father him who, without respect of persons, judgeth according to every one’s work: converse in fear during the time of your sojourning here. 18 Knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things as gold or silver, from your vain conversation of the tradition of your fathers: 19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb unspotted and undefiled, 20 Foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world, but manifested in the last times for you, 21 Who through him are faithful in God, who raised him up from the dead, and hath given him glory, that your faith and hope might be in God. 22 Purifying your souls in the obedience of charity, with a brotherly love, from a sincere heart love one another earnestly: 23 Being born again not of corruptible seed, but incorruptible, by the word of God who liveth and remaineth for ever. 24 For all flesh is as grass; and all the glory thereof as the flower of grass. The grass is withered, and the flower thereof is fallen away. 25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel hath been preached unto you. (1 St. Peter 1:8-25)

Satan cannot undo God… he can only hinder our ability to humbly submit to God’s Will.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[briang72]

Meant to post this scripture earlier when we were discussing Sola Scriptura:
Acts 8:30-35:

30
Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?”
31
He replied, “How can I, unless someone instructs me?” So he invited Philip to get in and sit with him.
32
This was the scripture passage he was reading: “Like a sheep he was led to the slaughter, and as a lamb before its shearer is silent, so he opened not his mouth.
33
In (his) humiliation justice was denied him. Who will tell of his posterity? For his life is taken from the earth.”
34
Then the eunuch said to Philip in reply, “I beg you, about whom is the prophet saying this? About himself, or about someone else?”
35
Then Philip opened his mouth and, beginning with this scripture passage, he proclaimed Jesus to him.

“How can I, unless someone instructs me?” That someone wasn’t just any Christian, it was the Philip the Apostle.

 

[JRKH]

***Hi, James!

I think that you have responded to the underlined query as #5 seeks to follow reason but is disputed by your summation (A properly disposed person, guided by the Spirit…): the inerrancy of the Holy Scriptures does not depend upon who reads them but who Inspired the Sacred Writings:***

But doesn’t the value of any writing, any text, any written instruction, depend on the knowledge, intent and dispositon of the person reading it?
If I try to read a Bible written in German, will it profit me unles I speak German fluently?
How about if I read the Bible with a specifically scientific and critical eye. Will I understand God’s “inerrant Word”, or will I find scientific inconsistancies that may turn me permanently away from God?

---

The Word of God is unchanging and eternal, revealing God’s Salvific Plan which existed from the Beginning and was revealed only according to His Will, and at the Appointed Time:***

God’s Word, may be eternal and unchanging, but once written down in the imperfect human tongue it passes from the perfection of God to the knife edge of human understanding; waiting there to be either read correctly or incorrectly; understood or misunderstood.
The words on the page remain the same, only the disposition of the reader varies.

---

Satan cannot undo God… he can only hinder our ability to humbly submit to God’s Will.***
Maran atha!

Angel

This is very well put indeed and I agree wholeheartedly. In fact it is precisely this point that I am so poorly trying to get at, explain, and understand.
Think of it like this. A properly disposed person can get more salvic grace reading Peter Pan than a poorly disposed person can get from the Bible.
Thus it all boils down to the disposition of the reader to be able to discern the proper meaning of God’s Word - To avoid Satan’s snares.

If I wish to go to God, to learn from God, (God’s ego) I can use the reading of scripture to help put me in the proper frame of mind and avoid errors.
But if I am looking for God to come to me, (my ego) then I may well read scripture wrongheadedly, looking for how it benefits me and “missing the boat” altogether.

Am I making any sense here?

I see so much controversy in reading scripture, in interpreting scripture, that I must find the reason.
That reason cannot be God, so it must be us.
It cannot be God’s Truth, so it must be our discernment.
It cannot be “God’s Word” so it must be the words we use to try and communicate God’s Word.

The only conclusion I can come to is that there is no book written in human tongues that contains the “Inerrant word of God”, and that includes the Bible, unless the person reading the book is themselves “inerrantly focused on God”.

Please comment anyone.

Peace
James

 

[mangy_dog]

Can and does Satan use the Bible to further his own agenda?

Yes and yes. Which is why he and all false prophets, false christians and false preachers are so eloquent and decietful - under the guise of benevolence and sanctity.
However, “Jesus Christ is come in the flesh”…is the way you discern the spirit of the anti-christ.

Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.

 

[Joe_5859]

But doesn’t the value of any writing, any text, any written instruction, depend on the knowledge, intent and dispositon of the person reading it?
If I try to read a Bible written in German, will it profit me unles I speak German fluently?
How about if I read the Bible with a specifically scientific and critical eye. Will I understand God’s “inerrant Word”, or will I find scientific inconsistancies that may turn me permanently away from God?

God’s Word, may be eternal and unchanging, but once written down in the imperfect human tongue it passes from the perfection of God to the knife edge of human understanding; waiting there to be either read correctly or incorrectly; understood or misunderstood.
The words on the page remain the same, only the disposition of the reader varies.

This is very well put indeed and I agree wholeheartedly. In fact it is precisely this point that I am so poorly trying to get at, explain, and understand.
Think of it like this. A properly disposed person can get more salvic grace reading Peter Pan than a poorly disposed person can get from the Bible.
Thus it all boils down to the disposition of the reader to be able to discern the proper meaning of God’s Word - To avoid Satan’s snares.

If I wish to go to God, to learn from God, (God’s ego) I can use the reading of scripture to help put me in the proper frame of mind and avoid errors.
But if I am looking for God to come to me, (my ego) then I may well read scripture wrongheadedly, looking for how it benefits me and “missing the boat” altogether.

Am I making any sense here?

I see so much controversy in reading scripture, in interpreting scripture, that I must find the reason.
That reason cannot be God, so it must be us.
It cannot be God’s Truth, so it must be our discernment.
It cannot be “God’s Word” so it must be the words we use to try and communicate God’s Word.

The only conclusion I can come to is that there is no book written in human tongues that contains the “Inerrant word of God”, and that includes the Bible, unless the person reading the book is themselves “inerrantly focused on God”.

Please comment anyone.

Peace
James

Jesus is the Word of God Incarnate: the Word in human flesh, yet still without sin.

The Bible is the Word of God Written: the Word in human language, yet still without error.

People are scandalized at the fact that Jesus took on our frail, sinful humanity. It is similar with the Word of God taking human language.

I would say that, yes people misunderstand Scripture. They misunderstand Jesus, as well. That doesn’t mean there is a deficiency in Jesus (because of his human felsh) or in Scripture (because of tis human language), but in our understanding.

A properly disposed person may get more out of Peter Pan than a poorly disposed person out of Scripture, but certainly a properly disposed person will get more out of Scripture than out of Peter Pan.

I’m not sure if any of this at all addresses the point you were making, but it seemed related in my head!

 

[ARTofChrist]

I used to be Protestant and obviously I was reading the same Scripture that every other person calling themself a Christian was reading. It wasn’t until I went through a long, rough discernment process, that was prompted by differing beliefs between my husband (then boyfriend) and I, did the Bible really start to make sense and come alive. It started by me trying to prove him wrong. Eventually I was burned out and I gave my mind to God. I resigned myself and just told him that I wanted the Truth. I was so burned out that I didn’t care about the debates anymore, I just wanted the Truth. It wasn’t until then that the Bible started pointing to the truths in the Catholic Church. This is no exaggeration, I was so convicted that the Catholic Church was the One True Church that I felt that I would be committing blasphemy of the Holy Spirit if I were to deny it and remain Protestant. I would even go back to my family and friends and try to explain to them what I had discovered and show them WHAT SEEMED SO CLEAR TO ME! But they didn’t see it, they coudln’t see it! They just had arguements to counter!

Here is a real life example how Satan can use the Word of God. But at the same time, I don’t believe the Holy Spirit reveals things to you unless you are willing and ready. In fact, I believe there’s a Scripture passage that backs that up, I just don’t remember it right now.

 

[tm30]

Can and does Satan use the Bible to further his own agenda?

Satan did not use the Bible directly, because the Sacred Scripture by itself is incapable of being a weapon against God. He did use the Bible indirectly by tempting various individuals to pridefully eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Bad (personal interpretation) instead of humbly submitting to the Tree of Life (the Magisterium). Once that disconnect occurs, all bets are off when it comes to the damage that can be done by the sin of pride. (See “Reformation”)

 

[JRKH]

Jesus is the Word of God Incarnate: the Word in human flesh, yet still without sin.

No dispute here, although I have some issues here that would require another thread.

The Bible is the Word of God Written: the Word in human language, yet still without error.

I don’t know if I can completely agree with this.
Here is my concern. (forgive me if I am not clear on this)

1. None of the Books in the Bible were written in English.
2. Translators many times cannot find a one to one translation of ancient words to modern words. Plus there are differences in customs and cultures to take into account.
3. Any human, written language will be limited and imperfect in trying to transcribe God’s Word from the heart to the page.
4. The person reading (much later and with no connection to the origional scribe) may read the text diferently than was origionally intended.

People are scandalized at the fact that Jesus took on our frail, sinful humanity. It is similar with the Word of God taking human language.

I can’t really comment on this since I have never been scandalized by either one.

I would say that, yes people misunderstand Scripture. They misunderstand Jesus, as well. That doesn’t mean there is a deficiency in Jesus (because of his human flesh) or in Scripture (because of its human language), but in our understanding.

Now this is what I’m trying to get to.
We hold up the Bible and say, “This contains the innerant Word of God”. We make it somehow godlike to others.
Then someone else reads the Bible, without proper disposition, comes away with a completey false understanding and we cannot shake that misunderstanding because WE were the ones who said the Bible was innerant.

Trust me, I do believe the Bible is “The Good Book”, but unless and until we can accept the idea that, while Good and Holy, the Bible is still just a human, corporeal companion text. It is not a replacement for the Word Of God written on our Hearts.

A properly disposed person may get more out of Peter Pan than a poorly disposed person out of Scripture, but certainly a properly disposed person will get more out of Scripture than out of Peter Pan.[/qoute]
Undoubtedly. I maybe shouldn’t have used this analogy, but sometimes my mind gets so frustrated with itself that I blurt things out. Still it might cause some thinking, which isn’t a bad thing.

I’m not sure if any of this at all addresses the point you were making, but it seemed related in my head!

I’d say yes and no. It’s obvious that you are “properly disposed” (or at least try vary hard to be) but maybe what I am trying to get at is so basic that most folks just don’t see it.
I want to 1) know myself and 2) help others to understand that we just can’t keep spouting scripture verses at each other and expect to get anywhere.
Maybe I should just find a wall to pound against.
No - I must keep searching.

I hope you all will help me.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

I used to be Protestant and obviously I was reading the same Scripture that every other person calling themself a Christian was reading. It wasn’t until I went through a long, rough discernment process, that was prompted by differing beliefs between my husband (then boyfriend) and I, did the Bible really start to make sense and come alive. It started by me trying to prove him wrong. Eventually I was burned out and I gave my mind to God. I resigned myself and just told him that I wanted the Truth. I was so burned out that I didn’t care about the debates anymore, I just wanted the Truth. It wasn’t until then that the Bible started pointing to the truths in the Catholic Church. This is no exaggeration, I was so convicted that the Catholic Church was the One True Church that I felt that I would be committing blasphemy of the Holy Spirit if I were to deny it and remain Protestant. I would even go back to my family and friends and try to explain to them what I had discovered and show them WHAT SEEMED SO CLEAR TO ME! But they didn’t see it, they coudln’t see it! They just had arguements to counter!

Here is a real life example how Satan can use the Word of God. But at the same time, I don’t believe the Holy Spirit reveals things to you unless you are willing and ready. In fact, I believe there’s a Scripture passage that backs that up, I just don’t remember it right now.

ArtofChrist,
Thank you for this. It is a beautiful example of what I am trying to say.
You spent so much time believing a certain way - and based on the Bible!! - but it wasn’t until you quit trying to “Bring God to You” that you were able to let God “Bring You to Him”.
But the sad thing is that it is the same “innerant” Word that you and your family still argue over. You believe one thing, they another.
I honestly believe that this is what happens when we allow the study of a book to replace the teaching of the Holy Spirit in our hearts.

It’s like the Bible story where in Eli told Sammuel, then next time you are awakened say, “Speak Lord, your servant is listening.” Too often we are saying, “Listen Lord, your servandt is speaking.”
(our pastor used that the other day and I just loved it.)

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

Satan did not use the Bible directly, because the Sacred Scripture by itself is incapable of being a weapon against God. He did use the Bible indirectly by tempting various individuals to pridefully eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Bad (personal interpretation) instead of humbly submitting to the Tree of Life (the Magisterium). Once that disconnect occurs, all bets are off when it comes to the damage that can be done by the sin of pride. (See “Reformation”)

I have purposely stayed away from discussing this in these terms because I wish to avoid any “devisive” terminology. Keeping tings to their most basic.
When scriptures were written down, there was no “magesterium”, however there was and still is the humble submission factor.

Everyone so far seems to instinctively understand what I am driving at, but we are so conditioned to revering, “The Bible” that most cannot get past it.

The Bible may well be the most perfect collection of Spiritual Writings ever assembled, yet it remains a book. A book without power until someone reads it. Then without the desire to submit to God, to understand what He wants, the study of the Bible is a dangerous undertaking.

I agree that God’s Word cannot be used against Him. but the words of man, and man’s capacity to understand and comprehend can certainly be used against man. after All the devil did use scripture to try to trip up Jesus during the temptation. (See the earlier posts)

Peace
James

 

[mangy_dog]

Satan did not use the Bible directly, because the Sacred Scripture by itself is incapable of being a weapon against God. He did use the Bible indirectly by tempting various individuals to pridefully eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Bad (personal interpretation) instead of humbly submitting to the Tree of Life (the Magisterium). Once that disconnect occurs, all bets are off when it comes to the damage that can be done by the sin of pride. (See “Reformation”)

Inasmuch as there is no weapon that can “effectively” be used against God - you are right. However, Lucifer does use the Word of God in an attempt (futil as it might be) to tempt Jesus into worshipping him.
The devil does use the Word of God “effectively” against some christians and non-christians alike.

This point is abundantly clear.

Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.

 

[tm30]

However, Lucifer does use the Word of God in an attempt (futil as it might be) to tempt Jesus into worshipping him.

It’s questionable that Lucifer knew he was tempting the Son of God. Actually, it’s likely he used scripture to see if He was, in fact, the Son of God, and not just the latest “Joe Messiah” to come around Judea. Once he realized that Jesus would not submit to his power - worse yet, that Jesus - a hungering Jew - was not interested in kicking out the Romans and returning power to the Jews - he knew Who he was dealing with - or at least had a good understanding of Who he was dealing with.

 

[Joe_5859]

I don’t know if I can completely agree with this.
Here is my concern. (forgive me if I am not clear on this)

1. None of the Books in the Bible were written in English.
2. Translators many times cannot find a one to one translation of ancient words to modern words. Plus there are differences in customs and cultures to take into account.
3. Any human, written language will be limited and imperfect in trying to transcribe God’s Word from the heart to the page.
4. The person reading (much later and with no connection to the origional scribe) may read the text diferently than was origionally intended.

I was paraphrasing something I heard somewhere along the line. No doubt it is probably not the most theologically precise formulation, but I thought I’d throw it our there.

It is true what you say about translations. There certainly is no perfect translation in the English language. But what about Scripture as it stands in the original languages? Even then, what about the Greek OT versus the Hebrew OT? Do we even have the entire OT in the original Hebrew? (I really don’t know the answer to that one, maybe we do). Some scholars also think portions of the NT were originally composed in Aramaic, but the oldest versions we have are in Greek. And even then, there are differences even between some of the oldest manuscripts we have. Differences in spelling, missing or added words and other such typographical differences. Grant it, I don’t think any of these discrepancies involve anything major, but they still exist. I think you could drive yourself mad trying to recapture the “original”!

But, these types of issues do not lead to the conclusion that the Bible contains error (anymore than Jesus having a hangnail would mean that he’s not perfect). The Bible still does not contain error, however imperfect our translations (or even our best guess at the originals) might be. That is because the fundamental meaning is the same.

That is why I think the Church is so necessary. To think that God would just give us the Bible and say “it speaks for itself” is as ridiculous as thinking the Founding Fathers of the US would have drawn up the Constitution and said, “This is all you need.” No, the Founding Fathers established the judicial branch to interpret and the executive branch to enforce what the Constitution contains. And these offices were meant to be perpetuated through time. Would God do anything less?

Now this is what I’m trying to get to.
We hold up the Bible and say, “This contains the innerant Word of God”. We make it somehow godlike to others.
Then someone else reads the Bible, without proper disposition, comes away with a completey false understanding and we cannot shake that misunderstanding because WE were the ones who said the Bible was innerant.

Interesting point. That is why, I think, a proper understanding of Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium goes hand-in-hand with understanding Scripture (hence the Vatican II Constitution on Divine Revelation speaks of all three and their relationship with each other). When we separate Scripture from the Church, there seems to be no end to the variety of interpretations. And it is very difficult to discuss something when both sides insist they are only using Scripture and they cannot understand why the other is “misreading” the verses they quote.

Trust me, I do believe the Bible is “The Good Book”, but unless and until we can accept the idea that, while Good and Holy, the Bible is still just a human, corporeal companion text. It is not a replacement for the Word Of God written on our Hearts.

Of course, I would say it’s a both/and, not an either/or situation. The Word of God is written on our hearts, but it is also written in the Bible. And if it is so easy to misinterpret the Word of God written in words right in front of us, how much easier is it to misinterpret the Word of God in our hearts!

I want to 1) know myself and 2) help others to understand that we just can’t keep spouting scripture verses at each other and expect to get anywhere.
Maybe I should just find a wall to pound against.
No - I must keep searching.

I hope you all will help me.

That is a good thing to search for, I think. Let me know if you find any satisfying answers! There does tend to be a lot of talking past each other in some Christian debates. Both sides using Scripture to say opposite things and believeing the other must be a heretic. Again, I would say the answer to this is really the Catholic Church. If there is no final authority on earth who can clearly speak on such matters, then who can say who is right and who is wrong?

Have you read Dei Verbum? It’s pretty short, but it’s a wonderful document. Maybe that would help answer some of your questions?

Good discussion!

 

[JRKH]

Thanks for sticking with me on this Joe.
I see a couple of other posts where mangydog and tm30 are already starting to discuss “Trees” instead of “Forests”. (No offence intended fellas ) Just shows how quickly we can become sidetracked.

I was paraphrasing something I heard somewhere along the line. No doubt it is probably not the most theologically precise formulation, but I thought I’d throw it our there.

Don’t sweat it my friend. That is the kind of thing we are all doing to a certain extent.

It is true what you say about translations. There certainly is no perfect translation in the English language. But what about Scripture as it stands in the original languages? Even then, what about the Greek OT versus the Hebrew OT? Do we even have the entire OT in the original Hebrew? (I really don’t know the answer to that one, maybe we do). Some scholars also think portions of the NT were originally composed in Aramaic, but the oldest versions we have are in Greek. And even then, there are differences even between some of the oldest manuscripts we have. Differences in spelling, missing or added words and other such typographical differences. Grant it, I don’t think any of these discrepancies involve anything major, but they still exist. I think you could drive yourself mad trying to recapture the "original"!

You are right. It would be virtually impossible to recaptrue the origional for many reasons. That is one reason why I am at the postion I’m at. We need to step back and say that, while the substance of the Bible is correct, we had better be very careful about the details. (I remember something about the devil being in the details)

But, these types of issues do not lead to the conclusion that the Bible contains error (anymore than Jesus having a hangnail would mean that he’s not perfect). The Bible still does not contain error, however imperfect our translations (or even our best guess at the originals) might be. That is because the fundamental meaning is the same.

Let’s see if this makes sense.
The Bible contains words/language/text. These “tools to communicate” are the invention of the human mind. Because they were invented by humans, they are limited to the human ability to express a thing. So when an inspired writer set down that which the Spirit revealed, he was limited to the use of an imperfect tool - language.

Words/language/text is a corporeal thing. Anything that is corporeal will fall short of the fullness of God. In addition, a thing has entered the corporeal it is subject to corruption.
If I put a match to my bible it will burn.
If I throw acid on it, it will be destroyed.
God’s Word won’t but “the Bible” will.

Finally it is necessary to understand that the Bible has absolutely no power AT ALL until it is opened and read, and then the power is for good or ill is based on the disposition of the person reading it.

That is why I think the Church is so necessary. To think that God would just give us the Bible and say “it speaks for itself” is as ridiculous as thinking the Founding Fathers of the US would have drawn up the Constitution and said, “This is all you need.” No, the Founding Fathers established the judicial branch to interpret and the executive branch to enforce what the Constitution contains. And these offices were meant to be perpetuated through time. Would God do anything less?

I like your analogy.
No, God would not leave us without comfort. That is why He promised us the HS.
As far as the Church goes, I appreciate her tremendously. However, until we can understand the fundamental relationship between us and God, it is impossible to have a realistic and confident relationship with the Church.

Interesting point. That is why, I think, a proper understanding of Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium goes hand-in-hand with understanding Scripture (hence the Vatican II Constitution on Divine Revelation speaks of all three and their relationship with each other). When we separate Scripture from the Church, there seems to be no end to the variety of interpretations. And it is very difficult to discuss something when both sides insist they are only using Scripture and they cannot understand why the other is “misreading” the verses they quote.

Yes and I honestly think there is no way out of it.

continued…

 

[JRKH]

Of course, I would say it’s a both/and, not an either/or situation. The Word of God is written on our hearts, but it is also written in the Bible. And if it is so easy to misinterpret the Word of God written in words right in front of us, how much easier is it to misinterpret the Word of God in our hearts!

Actually it is very easy once one lets go of the “Bible as a Whole” mentality. It works like this for me.

1. I believe that Jesus rose from the dead - without that nothing else matters.
2. Jesus taught many things but they all boiled down to Love - Of God - Of Others. The entire law and profits are based on this.
3. All true spirituality is an outgrowth of the application of these principles.

That is a good thing to search for, I think. Let me know if you find any satisfying answers! There does tend to be a lot of talking past each other in some Christian debates. Both sides using Scripture to say opposite things and believeing the other must be a heretic. Again, I would say the answer to this is really the Catholic Church. If there is no final authority on earth who can clearly speak on such matters, then who can say who is right and who is wrong?

That is because we get blinded by the trees.
I agree that the Church authority is necessary and Historically correct. (at least by and large)
Actually I think that the most satisfying answer I found so faris KIS (keep it simple)
That is why so the questions at the start were so simply put.

Have you read Dei Verbum? It’s pretty short, but it’s a wonderful document. Maybe that would help answer some of your questions?

Good discussion!

Thanks for the link.
I appreciate the feedback.

Peace
James

 

[jcrichton]

Meant to post this scripture earlier when we were discussing Sola Scriptura:

“How can I, unless someone instructs me?” That someone wasn’t just any Christian, it was the Philip the Apostle.

***Hi, briang!

Excellent point!

…just as in the case of the Pharisees and Sadducees, both group were very studious of the Sacred Writings and Sacred Traditions, respectedly… yet, Jesus called them both hypocrites because they new the letter of the Law but circumvented it to suit their own purposes… He made a distinction about their corruption of the Word and His Teachings (I am from above and you refuse to listen to me; yet, you accept and celebrate the teachings of man–paraphrased).

So it is not enough to have the Holy Scriptures at hand nor to have any man’s interpretation–both the Scriptures and the correct source must converge for true Doctrine to exist!

Maran atha!

Angel***

 

[jcrichton]

But doesn’t the value of any writing, any text, any written instruction, depend on the knowledge, intent and dispositon of the person reading it?
If I try to read a Bible written in German, will it profit me unles I speak German fluently?
How about if I read the Bible with a specifically scientific and critical eye. Will I understand God’s “inerrant Word”, or will I find scientific inconsistancies that may turn me permanently away from God?

God’s Word, may be eternal and unchanging, but once written down in the imperfect human tongue it passes from the perfection of God to the knife edge of human understanding; waiting there to be either read correctly or incorrectly; understood or misunderstood.
The words on the page remain the same, only the disposition of the reader varies.

This is very well put indeed and I agree wholeheartedly. In fact it is precisely this point that I am so poorly trying to get at, explain, and understand.
Think of it like this. A properly disposed person can get more salvic grace reading Peter Pan than a poorly disposed person can get from the Bible.
Thus it all boils down to the disposition of the reader to be able to discern the proper meaning of God’s Word - To avoid Satan’s snares.

If I wish to go to God, to learn from God, (God’s ego) I can use the reading of scripture to help put me in the proper frame of mind and avoid errors.
But if I am looking for God to come to me, (my ego) then I may well read scripture wrongheadedly, looking for how it benefits me and “missing the boat” altogether.

Am I making any sense here?

I see so much controversy in reading scripture, in interpreting scripture, that I must find the reason.
That reason cannot be God, so it must be us.
It cannot be God’s Truth, so it must be our discernment.
It cannot be “God’s Word” so it must be the words we use to try and communicate God’s Word.

The only conclusion I can come to is that there is no book written in human tongues that contains the “Inerrant word of God”, and that includes the Bible, unless the person reading the book is themselves “inerrantly focused on God”.

Please comment anyone.

Peace
James

***Hi, James!

…I think you hit the point several times… but you keep coming back to the receiver not the sender… as a child I learned that: “…el Verbo estaba con Dios y el Verbo era Dios…” which translates to: “the Verb was with God and the Verb was God…”

…soon I learned that: “…the Word was with God and that the Word was God…” This different term did not confused me for I knew that both Verb and Word referred to Christ Jesus…

The Source (Holy Spirit) did not change… the wording did change due to translations…

…yet this simple term “Word” is used to confuse the mind of many who openly claim that such thing cannot be… for them the meaning has changed through interpretation of the Word of God; so it is clear that interpretation corrupted the intellect but only the intellect not the Source… It is the same with the rest of the Holy Scriptures: through intellect we can discern human values (time frame, culture, language, science, intellect…) which can be corrupted according to the interpreter.

But we cannot discern God’s Design through human intellect and thus we must rely on the Source of the Holy Scriptures in order to determine the correct interpretation:

Wherefore, I give you to understand that no man, speaking by the Spirit of God, saith Anathema to Jesus. And no man can say The Lord Jesus, but by the Holy Ghost. (1 Corinthians 12:3–DRV)

No matter what language is used: the Word must always be God (John 1:1) because the Word of God is immutable!

Maran atha!

Angel***