Can the Episcopal Church be saved?

[Anglicanus_Rex]

In fact last I checked abortion isn’t specifically listed in the bible

Is Exodus 20 missing from the one you’re using?

rather all our churches views on it are simply men interpreting what is in the bible and doing our best to apply it to the issue.

And therein lies the problem. What is black and white being interpreted to do away with what is in the black and white.

And your rape analogy is a straw man at best.

It isn’t. In fact, it’s a milder comparison, given the differences in magnitude between rape and murder.

 

[Padres1969]

Is Exodus 20 missing from the one you’re using?

And therein lies the problem. What is black and white being interpreted to do away with what is in the black and white.

It isn’t. In fact, it’s a milder comparison, given the differences in magnitude between rape and murder.

Nope Exodus 20 is in my bible as well. And what you see as black and white, many others see as grey. The ECUSA is by no means alone even among Christian denominations in that regard.

 

[Anglicanus_Rex]

Nope Exodus 20 is in my bible as well. And what you see as black and white, many others see as grey. The ECUSA is by no means alone even among Christian denominations in that regard.

And it’s my contention that God doesn’t see it as grey. The OT Israelites saw idolatry as grey as well.

 

[Padres1969]

And it’s my contention that God doesn’t see it as grey. The OT Israelites saw idolatry as grey as well.

You can argue many Christian groups see it as grey with that particular topic. We haven’t had numerous instances of iconoclasm over the last 2 centuries for nothing.

But I acknowledge your point. We’ll just have to disagree there. I don’t think it’s a cut and dry black and white issue like you do. And neither do many Christian churches.

 

[commenter]

Perhaps you are confusing social issues (in part) with the larger picture. To say that the RCC doesn’t allow contraception and TEC does, has very little to do with the essential similarities between these two branches of the Christian Church.

Both have Bishops, Priests, and Deacons
Both are liturgical churches that center around the Eucharist
Both are sacramental
Both are theologically rooted in the same early history
etc, etc

To focus on the social concerns seems to me to be peripheral. Birth control and abortion, and perhaps to a lesser extent same sex marriage (just because it is so newly defined), are issues for the RCC and not so much for others. I am not saying they shouldn’t be important to you, not at all. I’m just trying to put them into a context of the greater Church and how it worships and carries out the Gospel of Christ.

Abortion isn’t trivial. It’s life-and-death. Jesus was an unborn child. How important is Jesus in estimating “context”?

 

[thecolorsblend]

Doctrinal chaos? How so?

James Pike, a necromancer. Jack Spong, a celebrity heretic. To my knowledge, neither of them was ever disciplined for his errors. A body that cannot (or will not) correct such egregious error isn’t a long term home for the orthodox and faithful. Speaking of which…

Non-existent membership? Not in my diocese and not in places I visit. People of faith gather together with incredible joy. This is Christ’s Body on earth. We are Church.

With respect, your province shed something like a third of its members within just a few years. One may rightly point out that the legitimacy of an idea isn’t necessarily related to the number of people who affirm that idea. And I do believe that to be true. But on an institutional level, losing that many members in that short an amount of time (with the numbers decreasing more and more all the time) is not a positive sign.

I say this as someone with a strong affection for Anglican liturgy and worship. I’m not trying to be mean-spirited or triumphalist. Far from it.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

A fair chunk of the " faithful anglicans" who remain in TEC are too low church to even consider becoming orthodox.

Only low church Anglicans remain in the TEC?

 

[thecolorsblend]

To focus on the social concerns seems to me to be peripheral.

Your view of the situation speaks to the two institutions’ differences in morality. While there are many similarities between the Catholic Church and TEC, they’re mostly superficial. And that characterization tends to overlook the very deep moral differences between the two institutions.

I don’t believe it to be an exaggeration to say that the Catholic Church and TEC have very different ideas of what’s morally right and what’s morally wrong. You reductively call them “social issues” but they are symptoms of something else. TEC, by and large, operates on a different plane of morality than does the Catholic Church. That is why many Catholics have grave concerns about TEC and its members.

And, as with my last post, this isn’t intended to upset you or slam on issues you care about. If I were reading this as an Episcopalian, I might think I was being condescended to so I sure hope you understand that isn’t what I’m trying to do here.

 

[Padres1969]

Only low church Anglicans remain in the TEC?

I think the poster’s implication was that of the “faithful” Anglicans “left” in the ECUSA, most are low church and wouldn’t be interested in the extremely high church and liturgical Orthodox Churches. Furthering that implication being that most of the remaining “high church” Anglicans that are left, ie the ones that would be more inclined toward the high church Orthodox Church, are not “faithful.”

 

[ComplineSanFran]

James Pike, a necromancer. Jack Spong, a celebrity heretic. To my knowledge, neither of them was ever disciplined for his errors. A body that cannot (or will not) correct such egregious error isn’t a long term home for the orthodox and faithful.

Bishop Pike died over 50 years ago.

Bishop Spong is not to my knowledge considered heretical. He writes to a large audience; some agree and some do not. The Episcopal Church leaves quite a bit of latitude for people to hammer out their individual theology. No one has suggested that he writes on behalf of the official Church.

 

[Anglicanus_Rex]

Abortion isn’t trivial. It’s life-and-death. Jesus was an unborn child. How important is Jesus in estimating “context”?

Indeed.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

Your view of the situation speaks to the two institutions’ differences in morality. While there are many similarities between the Catholic Church and TEC, they’re mostly superficial. And that characterization tends to overlook the very deep moral differences between the two institutions.

I don’t believe it to be an exaggeration to say that the Catholic Church and TEC have very different ideas of what’s morally right and what’s morally wrong. You reductively call them “social issues” but they are symptoms of something else. TEC, by and large, operates on a different plane of morality than does the Catholic Church. That is why many Catholics have grave concerns about TEC and its members .

Why is morality the bottom line concern for you? I would think it would be how we pray as a church and how we live the Gospel that is of utmost importance.

The three hot button social issues for Roman Catholics in the US are, I agree, ones that TEC doesn’t really spend time on. I take that back; the issue of inclusivity for LGBTQs is very prominent. As it was for women a generation ago. But that is being integrated into the larger church structure, which I see as a good and right thing. And so we get on with being the Church and doing what God asks of us to do.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

With respect, your province shed something like a third of its members within just a few years. One may rightly point out that the legitimacy of an idea isn’t necessarily related to the number of people who affirm that idea. And I do believe that to be true. But on an institutional level, losing that many members in that short an amount of time (with the numbers decreasing more and more all the time) is not a positive sign.
.

It has been said here time and again that ALL Christian denominations are losing members. It has nothing to do with Episcopalians being who we are. Methodists and Baptists and Presbyterians, and even Mormons are dropping in numbers.

It’s the time of the ‘Nones’ and that isn’t going to change anytime soon.

 

[DeusExMachina]

Only low church Anglicans remain in the TEC?

Most are evangelicals or liberal unorthodox heretics. There are a small number of anglo-Catholics though, like me

 

[Graceful_Lamb]

Perhaps you are confusing social issues (in part) with the larger picture. To say that the RCC doesn’t allow contraception and TEC does, has very little to do with the essential similarities between these two branches of the Christian Church.

Both have Bishops, Priests, and Deacons
Both are liturgical churches that center around the Eucharist
Both are sacramental
Both are theologically rooted in the same early history
etc, etc

To focus on the social concerns seems to me to be peripheral. Birth control and abortion, and perhaps to a lesser extent same sex marriage (just because it is so newly defined), are issues for the RCC and not so much for others. I am not saying they shouldn’t be important to you, not at all. I’m just trying to put them into a context of the greater Church and how it worships and carries out the Gospel of Christ.

The RCC has seven sacraments, whereas TEC does not have seven.

SSM is not a “social concern.” It is a Biblical one. In the Bible, it specifically states that marriage is between a man and a woman.

Birth control and abortion are not “social concerns,” either. They are both against RCC teaching.

I think the RCC carries out the Gospel quite well and worships well, too.

 

[Anglicanus_Rex]

Most are evangelicals or liberal unorthodox heretics. There are a small number of anglo-Catholics though, like me

Then come over to ACNA. We have a whole diocese of Anglo-Catholics!

 

[Padres1969]

The RCC has seven sacraments, whereas TEC does not have seven.

SSM is not a “social concern.” It is a Biblical one. In the Bible, it specifically states that marriage is between a man and a woman.

Birth control and abortion are not “social concerns,” either. They are both against RCC teaching.

I think the RCC carries out the Gospel quite well and worships well, too.

Actually the ECUSA has seven sacraments as well

 

[Sy_Noe]

I don’t think that proper Christian morals includes SSM. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that two people of the same sex can get ‘married.’

Nowhere does it say either that I can’t eat a small hamburger off a fast food dollar menu on a Friday during Lent but I can go out for a seafood dinner.

 

[Sy_Noe]

Nope Exodus 20 is in my bible as well. And what you see as black and white, many others see as grey. The ECUSA is by no means alone even among Christian denominations in that regard.

It isn’t alone on abortion or marriage among Christian denominations. Just people on their faith walks doing the best they can per their understandings and interpretations, reason and discernment.

 

[Graceful_Lamb]

Nowhere does it say either that I can’t eat a small hamburger off a fast food dollar menu on a Friday during Lent but I can go out for a seafood dinner.

vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P4O.HTM

Canon 1251.

I don’t believe that eating a hamburger off the dollar menu or going out for a seafood dinner would be appropriate during Lent. I believe having a tuna sandwich or some other more modest fish, vegetable, or salad (no meat) meal would be more appropriate during Lent.