Can the existence of God be demonstrated

[Charlemagne_III]

Ugh face-palm, Do you even know what self-contradiction means?
Clearly not.

Yes. Polytheism is self contradictory. Do you know what that means?

That’s why it has died out in the West and will eventually die out in the East.

Gods who contradict each other contradict their own claim to supremacy.

Even Zeus was created.

The Abrahamic God has never ceased to call himself Supreme, and is still going strong throughout the world. How is that a contradiction?

The Deist god is dead except perhaps for a few scientists and philosophers.

I don’t know any philosophers or scientists who are polytheists. Do you?

 

[Winterwolf00]

None of this proves it is impossible that God does exist.
At best the atheist can only assert it argues that God is malevolent or indifferent.

For the theist it proves another thing: that the Devil exists and is surely malevolent.

Which is irrelevant to whether or not it DOES.
Not to mention that no one is saying it’s impossible so I don’t know why you’re so fixated on that point.

 

[Winterwolf00]

I agree. But God also gives us the gift of free will, or everything else we have is nothing.

I was speaking of the argument you raised from the atheist point of view. The atheist simply cannot argue that the problem of evil proves there is no God. The theist can as well argue that the problem of evil shows there is a Devil mucking up the details of Creation.

Atheism is powerless to explain anything. All it can say is that things are just the way they are and there is no overarching rhyme, reason or purpose for anything.

The Problem of Evil DOES show that the Christian god is a contradiction.
The Devil is not an answer because God is still all-powerful and could strike him and all evil down at any time.
So the question remains.
Is God weak, dumb, evil, or not there at all?

 

[Winterwolf00]

Yes. Polytheism is self contradictory. Do you know what that means?

That’s why it has died out in the West and will eventually die out in the East.

Gods who contradict each other contradict their own claim to supremacy.

Even Zeus was created.

The Abrahamic God has never ceased to call himself Supreme, and is still going strong throughout the world. How is that a contradiction?

The Deist god is dead except perhaps for a few scientists and philosophers.

I don’t know any philosophers or scientists who are polytheists. Do you?

1. Polytheism ‘died out’ (which it didn’t actually, it’s still around) because the Christians won the civil war in the Roman Empire.
   Might does not make right sorry.

Gods who contradict each other contradict their own claim to supremacy.

So no you don’t know what the word means.
Multiple gods of varying intelligence, power, and morality are do not conflict with Problem of Evil specifically BECAUSE they are not as great as the Abrahamic god.
If the Abrahamic god is omniscient, omnipotent, and perfectly good then there is no excuse for Satan and other evils to exist.
But multiple gods where none of those 3 are perfect means there is room for evil to exist.

 

[Winterwolf00]

Even Zeus was created.

Yes humans have a habit of making up gods.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Might does not make right sorry.

Yes, as the atheistic Soviet Union finally decided in the 1990s.

It lasted less than a century.

Christianity has lasted 20 centuries. Other religions have lasted even longer, but none have lasted longer than the combined centuries of the Judeo-Christian trajectory since Abraham.

Christianity did not beat out ancient paganism in the West because it was militarily stronger than paganism. Actually it was militarily weaker, but morally stronger.

“See how these Christians love one another!” Tertullian, a convert from paganism to Christ

 

[Winterwolf00]

Yes, as the atheistic Soviet Union finally decided in the 1990s.

It lasted less than a century.

Christianity has lasted 20 centuries. Other religions have lasted even longer, but none have lasted longer than the combined centuries of the Judeo-Christian trajectory since Abraham.

Christianity did not beat out ancient paganism in the West because it was militarily stronger than paganism. Actually it was militarily weaker, but morally stronger.

“See how these Christians love one another!” Tertullian, a convert from paganism to Christ

I love how you completely change the subject to avoid the question.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

If the Abrahamic god is omniscient, omnipotent, and perfectly good then there is no excuse for Satan and other evils to exist.

“For God deemed it better to bring good out of evil than not to permit evil at all.” St. Augustine

 

[Charlemagne_III]

I love how you completely change the subject to avoid the question.

You are getting personal again. Stick with the issue.

 

[Trekker47]

1. Polytheism ‘died out’ (which it didn’t actually, it’s still around) because the Christians won the civil war in the Roman Empire.
   Might does not make right sorry.

So no you don’t know what the word means.
Multiple gods of varying intelligence, power, and morality are do not conflict with Problem of Evil specifically BECAUSE they are not as great as the Abrahamic god.
If the Abrahamic god is omniscient, omnipotent, and perfectly good then there is no excuse for Satan and other evils to exist.
But multiple gods where none of those 3 are perfect means there is room for evil to exist.

Winterwolf, may I strongly suggest you read The Problem of Pain by C.S Lewis if you’re going to argue the “if God is good and all-powerful, how can pain / evil exist?” point, because that’s what Lewis deals with very well in that book. It’s pretty light reading but also quite interesting.
(In fact, it’s even online, I posted it somewhere in another thread but here’s the link again - fellowshipoffaith.org/images/files/upload/Problem_of_Pain.pdf)

 

[Winterwolf00]

You are getting personal again. Stick with the issue.

Adorable.
So are you going to present any evidence?

 

[Winterwolf00]

Winterwolf, may I strongly suggest you read The Problem of Pain by C.S Lewis if you’re going to argue the “if God is good and all-powerful, how can pain / evil exist?” point, because that’s what Lewis deals with very well in that book. It’s pretty light reading but also quite interesting.
(In fact, it’s even online, I posted it somewhere in another thread but here’s the link again - fellowshipoffaith.org/images/files/upload/Problem_of_Pain.pdf)

That’s…a lot to go through.
Could you copy-paste the relevant bits?

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Adorable.
So are you going to present any evidence?

Sarcasm is also personal.

:sad_bye:

 

[Tomdstone]

You cannot take photos of a non-existent God, so you can’t prove God is non-existent…

But the Christian God is omniscient and the Bible apparently indicates that God is not omniscient. See post #28.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

But the Christian God is omniscient and the Bible apparently indicates that God is not omniscient. See post #28.

So you picked out a few verses that you think supports your argument. As you know the Scriptures use several literary forms to transmit the truth of Revelation. If you read Genesis and the Book of Job or the Psalms or any other book of the Old and New Testament, the only conclusion you can reach is that God is Omniscient and Onipotent as well. So you have missinterpreted the verses you quoted.

Let me just take one as an example. You made a big deal when Christ said, " No one know the time, but only the Father. " ( Matt 24: 36 ) That does not mean Christ did not know, it means that, simply as a man, he did not know. In other words, his human intellect alone and unaided did not know. But of course his human intellect has been assumed by the Divinity. So as the Second Person, Christ definitely did know the time. But he did not want the Apostles or anyone else to be curious about the time because it would distract them from the mission he was to give them and it would cause panic in other men. And this is the way the Catholic Church interprets such passages.

As you know the Catholic Church does not hold to a literal interpretation of Scriptures.

Linus2nd

 

[Tomdstone]

So you picked out a few verses that you think supports your argument. As you know the Scriptures use several literary forms to transmit the truth of Revelation. If you read Genesis and the Book of Job or the Psalms or any other book of the Old and New Testament, the only conclusion you can reach is that God is Omniscient and Onipotent as well. So you have missinterpreted the verses you quoted.

Let me just take one as an example. You made a big deal when Christ said, " No one know the time, but only the Father. " ( Matt 24: 36 ) That does not mean Christ did not know, it means that, simply as a man, he did not know. In other words, his human intellect alone and unaided did not know. But of course his human intellect has been assumed by the Divinity. So as the Second Person, Christ definitely did know the time. But he did not want the Apostles or anyone else to be curious about the time because it would distract them from the mission he was to give them and it would cause panic in other men. And this is the way the Catholic Church interprets such passages.

As you know the Catholic Church does not hold to a literal interpretation of Scriptures.

Linus2nd

So what Jesus knows as a man is not the same as what He knows as God? They are different, is that correct?
But still you did not answer the other objections where the Lord God appears not to know certain things at least according to the Bible:

… in Genesis God asks Adam: “Adam where are you?” Why would God ask that question if He was all-knowing? Also in Genesis 3:8-12 God asks Adam: “Have you eaten the fruit I commanded you not to eat?” If God is all-knowing, wouldn’t He know whether or not Adam had eaten the fruit? Also in Genesis 18:20 "20The LORD also said, “How great is the disapproval of Sodom and Gomorrah! Their sin is so very serious! 21I’m going down to see whether they’ve acted according to the protests that have reached me. If not, I wish to know.” If God is all knowing, why would He need to go down to see how they acted? Wouldn’t He know already? Also in Zephaniah 1:12, the Lord God says: “And it shall come to pass at that time, that I will search Jerusalem with lamps, and will visit upon the men that are settled on their lees: that say in their hearts: The Lord will not do good, nor will he do evil.” Since God is all present and all knowing, why would He need a lantern to search Jerusalem?

Why would God ask Adam where he was? Why would God want to go down and see if the people had obeyed His commands, if He already knew? Why would He want to search with lamps?

 

[oldcelt]

So what Jesus knows as a man is not the same as what He knows as God? They are different, is that correct?
But still you did not answer the other objections where the Lord God appears not to know certain things at least according to the Bible:

Why would God ask Adam where he was? Why would God want to go down and see if the people had obeyed His commands, if He already knew? Why would He want to search with lamps?

Excellent and telling questions. Faith should not be used as a reason to not examine the components of that faith.

 

[Winterwolf00]

Sarcasm is also personal.

:sad_bye:

I’ll take your continued avoidance of the challenge to mean you can’t meet it.
Thank you for confirming that.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

So what Jesus knows as a man is not the same as what He knows as God? They are different, is that correct?
But still you did not answer the other objections where the Lord God appears not to know certain things at least according to the Bible:

Why would God ask Adam where he was? Why would God want to go down and see if the people had obeyed His commands, if He already knew? Why would He want to search with lamps?

Well, you know a conversation has to start somewhere.

If you have a child who has misbehaved, and you are omniscient enough to know that, the first thing you do is ask the child questions designed to elicit the truth. If the child lies, you already know that and can confront him with his lies and teach him not to lie. If you carry a lamp in your search, the child knows full well you are on his track. These are reasonable things for an omniscient God to do when confronting a mischievous child.

When the omniscient God knows Cain has killed Abel, he asks him where his brother is. Cain lies and says he doesn’t know and asks if he is supposed to be his brother’s keeper. Do you think an omniscient God would be deceived by that answer? And so Cain gets a mark placed upon him, because the omniscient God knows, before Cain lies, that Cain is both a murderer and a liar. That is to say, Cain has come under the control of Satan, whom Jesus described as a murderer and a liar.

 

[Aloysium]

But the Christian God is omniscient and the Bible apparently indicates that God is not omniscient. See post #28.

God is omniscient.
Your challenge is to understand what that means and what is happening in those interactions described in scripture.

Ultimately, all is mystery.
This is not a cop-out but the admission that we are not omniscient.
Although it is all totally rational, without revelation or some sort of realization of that within us which is in the image of God, we cannot grasp His transcendental nature.
I have gone through various argument on these forums before and it seemed fruitless to repeat. However, lets try:

The Bible is about the revelation of the Word in human history.
From Genesis, where all is created by the Word, to His revelation in the person of Jesus Christ,
the Bible speaks to us of God and of our relationship with Him.
Christ is the Way, the dialogue through which we grow in loving God.

In the case of Cain, that dialogue is clear.
God enters into time to meet him and warn him.
In doing so, Cain is given the opportunity to conquer sin.
But, he cannot. In spite of God’s showing him where he is heading, the evil within him has governance.

This is our truth. We are wicked. Very, very few people can reach God by their own accord.
As Adam, we will choose ourselves.
It is for this reason that at the ontological foundation of creation, the Lamb is slain.
And as a result, most of humanity will be saved.

I am starting to understand that people do not willfully deny God.
I still cannot understand how the Divine, being ever-present, cannot be seen.
It is in our very existence, It is in those brilliant bonds of love between us, the eternal tapestry of joy that is life at it’s Ground.

I do not think that God can be demonstrated; He is the beloved, known in the intimacy of the moment.
If one does not see, one’s gaze is set on things too coarse.
If you think pleasure, you will not know heaven.
I am writing this in the hope that it will lead some to Truth, the Reality beyond these words and ideas.