Can the growth of Athiesm be due to the inaffectivenes or lack of inteligence in todays Christian apoligetics?

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Can the growth of Atheism be due to the ineffectiveness or lack of intelligence in today’s Christian apologetics? Or are we dealing with the mere illusion of Atheism’s intellectual superiority?
I have heard it said that often when people leave their church thru dissatifaction sometimes they go thu a period of wondering, including that of atheism. I would think that thu disillusionment they drop everything for a while.

But I also think about the divorses escallating leaving childrens’ self-images in shreds. Or worse when one or the other parent does not sufficiently attend their children after divorce.

Atheists are not born, nor created, but made. It is not just a belief that there is no God, but a mode of tired discouragement that God does not care, and that science is the only thing left that now makes sense in finding answers. Are they really at fault? What do they have? And science can be so cold and indifferent to their needs for warmth and understanding. I feel badly about this for them.

There are so many ugly bad things happening today to so many. I know this is not scientific, but it still happens to be the cause of so many human wounds that won’t heal. I wish I could take a big eraser and wipe it all out, and start over.

How can we help to undo the harm that has been done to them?

Our dear blessed Saviour, but who is there to listen?

Just a thought.
 
Atheists are not born, nor created, but made.
This is incorrect. Atheism, in its basest form, is what every child is born as. Nobody is born believing in gods - that is a dogma that is usually taught to them by their parents. It’s no accident that most people of religion have the same religion as their parents. They believe what they are taught to believe at a young and impressionable age; they do not go on a journey of discovery to ascertain what they believe to be the One True Religion.

Did you seriously look into Islam, Judaism etc. before deciding to become Catholic? I suspect not. What religion are your parents? Did you go to church regularly when you were a child? All those authority figures, telling you what to believe without giving you the chance to think for yourself. It’s sad. And personally speaking, I believe the growth in atheism is a direct result of the increase in social and intellectual freedom that most societies enjoy today. It’s okay to think for yourself these days. And people are, and they’re rejecting religion because it’s absurd.
It is not just a belief that there is no God, but a mode of tired discouragement that God does not care, and that science is the only thing left that now makes sense in finding answers.
This is a huge ad hominen. You have neither the right nor the knowledge to speak about the motivations of atheists. You clearly don’t even understand what an atheist is, if you think that an atheist thinks that “God doesn’t care.” How can one believe that something that doesn’t exist, doesn’t care? I suggest that you refrain from commenting on what you don’t understand.

Before you disparage science as a source of answers, consider that it’s the only thing that has ever provided any! Religion has never vouchsafed us a single verifiable truth about the universe. Science is the “only thing left that makes sense in finding answers;” and it has always been thus - at least, for those who care whether the answers are right.
Are they really at fault? What do they have? And science can be so cold and indifferent to their needs for warmth and understanding. I feel badly about this for them.
That’s very touching of you, but again you’re just showing a lack of understanding. Because you can’t countenance a universe without God, you assume that anybody who doesn’t believe, must be feeling the distress of an empty God-shaped “hole in the soul.” This is simply not the case.
 
This is incorrect. Atheism, in its basest form, is what every child is born as. Nobody is born believing in gods - that is a dogma that is usually taught to them by their parents. It’s no accident that most people of religion have the same religion as their parents. They believe what they are taught to believe at a young and impressionable age; they do not go on a journey of discovery to ascertain what they believe to be the One True Religion.

Did you seriously look into Islam, Judaism etc. before deciding to become Catholic? I suspect not. What religion are your parents? Did you go to church regularly when you were a child? All those authority figures, telling you what to believe without giving you the chance to think for yourself. It’s sad. And personally speaking, I believe the growth in atheism is a direct result of the increase in social and intellectual freedom that most societies enjoy today. It’s okay to think for yourself these days. And people are, and they’re rejecting religion because it’s absurd.

This is a huge ad hominen. You have neither the right nor the knowledge to speak about the motivations of atheists. You clearly don’t even understand what an atheist is, if you think that an atheist thinks that “God doesn’t care.” How can one believe that something that doesn’t exist, doesn’t care? I suggest that you refrain from commenting on what you don’t understand.

Before you disparage science as a source of answers, consider that it’s the only thing that has ever provided any! Religion has never vouchsafed us a single verifiable truth about the universe. Science is the “only thing left that makes sense in finding answers;” and it has always been thus - at least, for those who care whether the answers are right.

That’s very touching of you, but again you’re just showing a lack of understanding. Because you can’t countenance a universe without God, you assume that anybody who doesn’t believe, must be feeling the distress of an empty God-shaped “hole in the soul.” This is simply not the case.
That is well said. Especially the last line about the utterly patronizing comment. And I like your signature.
 
No shame indeed!

I confess to being impressed and surprised at these historical insights. They change my perspective on Church history, and bring up some questions that should be within the scope of this thread. I’m asking these from my best knowledge, which may require even more correction.

Given that heliocentrism had already been proposed by a Bishop who presumably was not executed for his trouble, mid-Inquisition, why was Copernicus afraid to publish his heliocentric theory during his lifetime? We are looking at about 150 years between Bishop Oresme and Copernicus, which is plenty of time for the political climate to change. What happened during this time to make Copernicus so fearful? And perhaps rightly so, inasmuch as his publication was later banned.

Then, we can extend the question to Galileo. I’ve read two biographies on him; most of my limited knowledge of the character of the Church around that time comes from these.

Your insights renew my interest in this (what I consider possibly) crucial period in Church history. How would you feel about contributing to (even better, initiating) a thread which might provide CAF members some insights into the ebb and flow of ideas during this time, particularly those relating to the Church’s understanding of how the universe works?

From the Galileo biographies I concluded that he made a deliberate choice to challenge the Church’s extension of its theology into science, I see his purpose in doing so, especially knowing the risk, as his desire to integrate theology and science, which he knew would have meant potential changes to theology. Any thoughts on the matter?
Good questions. My own opinion is that the issues between Galileo and Copernicus and the Church can perhaps best be understood as the scholarly Peer Review Process as it existed in those times - and which could be just as brutal and personality-based as academics often find it today.

The intellectual and academic establishment at that time largely was a creation of the Church, which created the university system, was a patron of much of the scientific research of the time, and took a keen interest in scientific research - particularly astronomy and cosmology - as it explored and celebrated what was seen as God’s creation. I think the common argument that the Church intruded into what should have been a preserve of “science” overlooks the fact that the Church was largely synonymous with the scientific establishment at that time.

It’s not often discussed or remarked upon, but much of Copernicus’ support came from the Catholic Church, and much (not all) of the opposition to his research was from the more literalist fathers of the Protestant reformation, which was gaining increasing political and religious power in Europe at the time of Copernicus. Copernicus was a devout Polish Catholic and nationalist, which probably added to the Protestant enmity against him.

Martin Luther’s collaborator, the influential Lutheran theologian Philipp Melanchthon, wrote about Copernicus inm 1541 that certain people believe it is a marvelous achievement to extol so crazy a thing, like that Polish astronomer who makes the earth move and the sun stand still. Really, wise governments ought to repress impudence of mind."

Martin Luther himself reportedly said in 1593, anent Copernicus:

““There is talk of a new astrologer who wants to prove that the earth moves and goes around instead of the sky, the sun, the moon, just as if somebody were moving in a carriage or ship might hold that he was sitting still and at rest while the earth and the trees walked and moved. But that is how things are nowadays: when a man wishes to be clever he must . . . invent something special, and the way he does it must needs be the best! The fool wants to turn the whole art of astronomy upside-down. However, as Holy Scripture tells us, so did Joshua bid the sun to stand still and not the earth.”.”

Melanchthon (another astronomer) later published Initia Doctrinae Physicae, in which he stated that Copernicus’ theory should be rejected based on “the evidence of the senses, the thousand-year consensus of men of science, and the authority of the Bible”

He went on to say: “Out of love for novelty or in order to make a show of their cleverness, some people have argued that the earth moves. They maintain that neither the eighth sphere nor the sun moves, whereas they attribute motion to the other celestial spheres, and also place the earth among the heavenly bodies. Nor were these jokes invented recently. There is still extant Archimedes’ book on The sand-reckoner; in which he reports that Aristarchus of Samos propounded the paradox that the sun stands still and the earth revolves around the sun. Even though subtle experts institute many investigations for the sake of exercising their ingenuity, nevertheless public proclamation of absurd opinions is indecent and sets a harmful example.”
 
The Calvinist theologian John Owen also attacked Copernicus, writing that *“the late hypothesis, fixing the sun as in the centre of the world’ was 'built on fallible phenomena, and advanced by many arbitrary presumptions against evident testimonies of Scripture.” *

By contrast, although Copernicus was apparently concerned about the views the Catholic Church might have about his theory (enough that he dedicted his treatise to Pope Paul III), it was generally supportive. In 1536, the Archbishop of Capua, Cardinal Nikolaus von Schönberg, attended a series of lectures outlining Copernicus’ theory in Rome, along with Pope Clement VII and several other cardinals. The Cardinal wrote the following to Copernicus:

“Some years ago word reached me concerning your proficiency, of which everybody constantly spoke. At that time I began to have a very high regard for you… For I had learned that you had not merely mastered the discoveries of the ancient astronomers uncommonly well but had also formulated a new cosmology. In it you maintain that the earth moves; that the sun occupies the lowest, and thus the central, place in the universe… Therefore with the utmost earnestness I entreat you, most learned sir, unless I inconvenience you, to communicate this discovery of yours to scholars, and at the earliest possible moment to send me your writings on the sphere of the universe together with the tables and whatever else you have that is relevant to this subject …”

This doesn’t sound very menacing to me.

The Dominicans Bartolomeo Spina (the Vatican censor) and Giovanni Tolosani (a noted astronomer) both opposed the Copernican theory, but neither proposed any actions against him - again, this was a scientific dispute as much as a theological one, as both members of the Church, especially Tolosani, didn’t agree with the science - Tolosani argued that Copernicus failed to offer any physical theory that would would permit him to deduce the motion of the Earth; that he used induction rather than deduction to make his case; and that the mathematics used to make his calculations had no concrete reality, and thus could not be used to make calculations about the physical world (an interesting theory in itself that in another form, is still discussed in philosophy today).

Again, I would argue that this was not an instance of religion intruding on science, but of two scientists (both of whom were staunch traditionalist Catholics) who differed in their views - part of the give and take of the peer review process we see today. And as in scholarly disputes today between headstrong individuals, the arguments could be quite heated and become quite personal, and there were strong proponents both for and against Copernicus in the Church.

It wasn’t until long after Copernicus’ death (circa 1616) that the Inquisition became involved, probably based on an increasing biblical literalism within the Church that arose to ascendancy in response to the Protestant Reformation and Protestant claims that the Catholic Church was not “biblical.” Despite this, voices within the Church echoed St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas in arguing that science should not be denied because of an apparent conflict with the Old Testament. Cardinal Robert Bellarmine, who delivered the papal order not to support or defend the heliocentric idea, stated:

“If there were a real proof that the Sun is in the center of the universe, that the Earth is in the third sphere, and that the Sun does not go round the Earth but the Earth round the Sun, then we should have to proceed with great circumspection in explaining passages of Scripture which appear to teach the contrary, and we should rather have to say that we did not understand them than declare an opinion false which has been proved to be true. But I do not think there is any such proof since none has been shown to me.”

And, it should be viewed with the realization that at that time, theology and philosophy were considered to be sciences on an equal level with astronomy and cosmology and physics.

As for Galileo, many members of the Church welcomed and celebrated his theory, but sought additional sufficient evidence to support his arguments, and the Pope, who urged him to publish his theory, also instructed him to treat it as a hypothesis rather than an established truth. His personal relationship with Pope Urban VIII (as well as his theological pronouncements, which were seen as outside his scope of authority) was probably was as big a contributing factor as anything else, and whose desire to have his work published led him into publishing that piece that insulted the Pope (a former friend). I guess the equivalent in the modern academic world would be if you wished to see a revolutionary article published in a prestigious journal, were told to wait by the editor (a close personal friend) of the journal until the peer reviewers completed their review and decided whether the evidence supported your theory, and after promising to wait, you went ahead and published your theories and a mock interview with a character who is clearly modeled on the editor, but whom you gave the pseudonym “Mr. Simpleton.” (which is essentially what Galileo did, to the Pope’s chagrin.) Would you be surprised if the editor flipped out on you? Not fair, perhaps, but also not surprising to anyone who has been involved in academia.

As far as why Copernicus was so fearful, I’ve read that scholars disagree as to whether the issues were academic/scientific or theological. Maybe both, I won’t disagree that expressing views that run counter to prevailing scientific paradigms could be hazardous to your professional career and reputation (then and now - whatever your views are on Global Warming or Young Earth Creationism, expressing them in an academic environment could derail a promising faculty position pretty quickly. If you look at what happened to the authors of The Bell Curve, it makes Galileo’s punishment look pretty kind by comparison. Plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose.)

For views that it was academic/scientific, see Lindberg, David C.; Numbers, Ronald L. (1986).* “Beyond War and Peace: A Reappraisal of the Encounter between Christianity and Science”. Church History* (Cambridge University Press) or Arthur Koestler’s The Sleepwalkers: A History of Man’s Changing Vision of the Universe. New York, NY: Grosset & Dunlap.

For views that it was in fear of the religious fallout, see , Alexandre Koyré’s The Astronomical Revolution: Copernicus – Kepler – Borelli. Ithaca, NY: Cornell University Press, and Edward Rosen’s Copernicus and his Successors. London: Hambledon Press.
 
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