Can the Novus Ordo be reconciled with pre-Concillar documents on the Liturgy?

[TNT]

No, it’s actually from Father Richard John Neuhaus’ book *Catholic Matters: Confusion, Controversy, and the Splendor of Truth. *He uses it to describe all of the “silly” excesses and innovations that took place with the liturgy.

If you watched EWTN’s coverage of the old Holy Father’s funeral, it was Fr. Neuhaus who offered commentary with Raymond Arroyo. He appears quite often on EWTN. However, he is what some radical traditionalists like to dismiss as a “neo-con” or a “neo-Catholic.” They get a little upset when he (and Pope Benedict) refer to Pope John Paul II as “the Great.”

“The Great” is a title that the 2 groups see in meaning, completely different. That’s why the disagreement.
The Conciliar group, if I may call it such, sees Great:
popularity
showmanship
inclusion of all religions in salvation
humanism
ecumenism in the modern revised sense
extreme inculturation of the liturgy.
Insulation from responsibility for the unprecedented advancement of novel liberalism.​

The traditional group sees
Great as:
Orthodoxy
Explicit promotion of the Catholic religion to non-catholics; a consistent mark of historical popes
advancement or promotion of traditional hierarchy vs promotion and maintenance of liberal if not morally corrupted hierarchy
strict conformity in the liturgy
no compromise to novelty in the Mass because of liberal influences
conciliar rule in the church giving loss of leadership to the pope in faith, morals and praxis.
no discipline offered to most of the heterodox teachers corrupting the traditional catholic faith.
Apparently ignoring the need to root out on an active basis, the sexual predators in the seminaries.
In other words playing the fiddle for the amusement of the crowds while the church is burning down.​

In summary, the word Great has 2 different meanings for each group.
One, the greatness of world popularity.
The other as the maintenance of the Catholic religion in all it’s aspects.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

I never watch TV, and have never seen EWTN.

All the silly excesses and innovations that take place during the liturgy are actually liturgical abuses, aren’t they? To call them the “silly season” seems to be dumbing it down to make it appear less offensive and less serious than it actually is.

You’d have to take that up with Fr. Richard. You can contact him at First Things, 156 Fifth Avenue, Suite 400 NY, NY 10010 or through the Archdiocese of New York.

 

[Jerry_Mitchner]

The “superior” Mass for any individual–whether it be NO, TLM, Divine Liturgy, or some other form–is the one through which God best communicates to the individual.

Aha! Another subjective standard!

Continuing my comments in beginning new thread, “Relative artistic merit—NO and Trad Rite”

 

[WanderAimlessly]

Why does the current valid Mass have to be reconciled? It does not.

 

[Uxor]

So, we have two sides of opinion here:

1. Those who believe it’s time to circle the wagons because the Church is completely corrupted and can only be saved by changing the liturgy because the current liturgy is getting increasingly abused.

And

1. Those who believe that the Mass, when said correctly, is the Mass of the Latin Church and that the reverence and quality of the liturgy is increasing.

I belong to group number two. It seems, in my experience, that liturgically across the US things are becoming more orthodox and not less orthodox.

I believe it is obvious that there are more orthodox bishops in place now than in the last 40 years. Take a look at the profiles and backgrounds of the bishops appointed over the last 2 or 3 years. These are some powerful orthodox men.

There are now a large number of good young priests coming out of the seminary. As the older priests move on, parishes will change.

Anyway, this is what I see in my diocese and at the bishops level across the country.

Unfortunately, for those who belong to group number 1, the current Mass won’t be going away. Your best hope is probably for a wider use of the indult, but even with that you will only see a few parishes per diocese offering the old Mass. People desire orthodoxy and reverence and as more and more parishes fulfill that need the demand for the old Mass will be less and less.

That’s my take, anyway.

God bless.

At my parish, people drive from 5 states every Sunday to attend, sometimes more. How many orthodox parishes do they drive by each Sunday you claim they want to attend? A large number.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

At my parish, people drive from 5 states every Sunday to attend, sometimes more. How many orthodox parishes do they drive by each Sunday you claim they want to attend? A large number.

My NO parish is packed, every Sunday, for 8 masses.

 

[St_Isidore]

Unfortunately, for those who belong to group number 1, the current Mass won’t be going away. Your best hope is probably for a wider use of the indult, but even with that you will only see a few parishes per diocese offering the old Mass. People desire orthodoxy and reverence and as more and more parishes fulfill that need the demand for the old Mass will be less and less.

That’s my take, anyway. (this is a key point)

God bless.

Could you please provide a link on the statistics with regard to Mass attendance (since Vatican II),also number of priests, number seminarians, number of teaching nuns, number of religious orders, number of annulments, positions of abortion, contraception, etc, etc, etc.(all post-Vatican II)?. Since I have read that these statistics in every category have gone in the anti-Catholic direction.

Thank you.

 

[Uxor]

My NO parish is packed, every Sunday, for 8 masses.

What is the name of your Parish? I could help by sending the the address of mine.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

What is the name of your Parish? I could help by sending the the address of mine.

Our Lady of Las Vegas, Las Vegas, Nevada. But you could send them to any of our city parishes. Parking problems so many people show up for Mass, long lines at confession.

 

[Ham1]

Could you please provide a link on the statistics with regard to Mass attendance (since Vatican II),also number of priests, number seminarians, number of teaching nuns, number of religious orders, number of annulments, positions of abortion, contraception, etc, etc, etc.(all post-Vatican II)?. Since I have read that these statistics in every category have gone in the anti-Catholic direction.

Thank you.

Perhaps you misread. I did not reference anything to do with mass attendance overall or any of the other statistics that you mention.

As to some of what you mentioned, there has been an increase in the number of seminarians in many dioceses over the last 10 years. Also, check the backgrounds and profiles of the bishops appointed and raised to larger dioceses over the last 5 years. Bishops like Burke, Bruskewitz, Doran, Dolan, Morlino, Listecki, Vasa, and many many others. For some reason, they aren’t appointing bishops like Weakland and Mahony anymore. Anyone who doesn’t see that the quality of bishops has vastly improved over the past 5-10 years isn’t paying attention.

 

[St_Isidore]

My NO parish is packed, every Sunday, for 8 masses.

NO service attendance and many other categories have been on a steady decline for decades in the US and elsewhere. I do not dispute that your Mass is packed. My NO mass was also packed for years and years. But there has been a very noticeable steady decline. At one time you had to arrive at Church at least 15-30 mins ahead to get a seat. Now you can arrive that same quantity of time, (even at end), after NO service commences and get seats for many. Right across the board in our diocese attendance has declined. Your NO service is definitely the exception and maybe noteworthy to report to statisticians in order to discovery this extraordinary anomaly.

 

[ncjohn]

Aha! Another subjective standard!

Continuing my comments in beginning new thread, “Relative artistic merit—NO and Trad Rite”

Of course it’s a subjective standard. By definition that’s what a “preference” is.

And no matter how you want to try to state it, that’s all one’s choice of which liturgy to attend is. There is no “objective” standard for defining a “best” liturgy.

Nor is there any need to "reconcile the NO liturgy with the Tridentine liturgy. They are just different vehicles for expressing our praise to God, as are the different forms of the Divine Liturgy, or are we going to declare them “inferior” also?

 

[St_Isidore]

Perhaps you misread. I did not reference anything to do with mass attendance overall or any of the other statistics that you mention.

Your inference was noted.

As to some of what you mentioned, there has been an increase in the number of seminarians in many dioceses over the last 10 years. Also, check the backgrounds and profiles of the bishops appointed and raised to larger dioceses over the last 5 years. Bishops like Burke, Bruskewitz, Doran, Dolan, Morlino, Listecki, Vasa, and many many others. For some reason, they aren’t appointing bishops like Weakland and Mahony anymore. Anyone who doesn’t see that the quality of bishops has vastly improved over the past 5-10 years isn’t paying attention.

I am only speaking of Catholic Statistics and not my own numerology. Not disputing quality of Bishops, but we must accept There IS A DECLINE IN MASS ATTENDANCE SINCE VATICAN II. But this is only one of many DRASTIC declinations.

Back to our topic:

Do you believe that that it is possible for the Novus Ordo Missae to be reconciled with pre-Vatican II documents on the Liturgy, such as Pius X’s Inter Sollicitudines, or did the NO make these documents void and invalid in regards to their influence on the Liturgy altougather?

It is possible but very unlikely.

 

[ncjohn]

At my parish, people drive from 5 states every Sunday to attend, sometimes more. How many orthodox parishes do they drive by each Sunday you claim they want to attend? A large number.

And that proves what??

If you want a TLM and that is the closest one, of course you’ll drive past parishes that don’t have a TLM. And if the reverse was true and someone wants an NO Mass, they would drive by the parishes offering only a TLM, but they likely wouldn’t be driving past other NO Mass offerings unless they were just looking for a specific priest or avoiding some particularly problematic parish.

It has nothing to do with one being better or worse, just which preference one has and how far they are willing to go to indulge that.

Hopefully it won’t be long until people won’t have to drive great distances for a TLM and can have what they want readily available.

 

[Ham1]

NO service attendance and many other categories have been on a steady decline for decades in the US and elsewhere. I do not dispute that your Mass is packed. My NO mass was also packed for years and years. But there has been a very noticeable steady decline. At one time you had to arrive at Church at least 15-30 mins ahead to get a seat. Now you can arrive that same quantity of time, (even at end), after NO service commences and get seats for many. Right across the board in our diocese attendance has declined. Your NO service is definitely the exception and maybe noteworthy to report to statisticians in order to discovery this extraordinary anomaly.

Sounds like your parish is an anamoly as well. All indications are that in the US there was a steady decline from 1957 through around 2000. Since 2000 the Mass attendance has stayed relatively consistent. It’s interesting to note that the decline began long before the implementation of the new Mass.

Here is a statistical analysis:

cara.georgetown.edu/AttendPR.pdf

 

[Thursday1]

Our Lady of Las Vegas, Las Vegas, Nevada. But you could send them to any of our city parishes. Parking problems so many people show up for Mass, long lines at confession.

It is a very beautiful church. If I am ever out your way I will have to ask for permission to photograph it.

Yours in Christ,
Thursday

 

[Uxor]

NO service attendance and many other categories have been on a steady decline for decades in the US and elsewhere. I do not dispute that your Mass is packed. My NO mass was also packed for years and years. But there has been a very noticeable steady decline. At one time you had to arrive at Church at least 15-30 mins ahead to get a seat. Now you can arrive that same quantity of time, (even at end), after NO service commences and get seats for many. Right across the board in our diocese attendance has declined. Your NO service is definitely the exception and maybe noteworthy to report to statisticians in order to discovery this extraordinary anomaly.

Your description sounds exactly like my old Parish. Too many changes and people not being able to pray at Mass sent them on their way.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

NO service attendance and many other categories have been on a steady decline for decades in the US and elsewhere. I do not dispute that your Mass is packed. My NO mass was also packed for years and years. But there has been a very noticeable steady decline. At one time you had to arrive at Church at least 15-30 mins ahead to get a seat. Now you can arrive that same quantity of time, (even at end), after NO service commences and get seats for many. Right across the board in our diocese attendance has declined. Your NO service is definitely the exception and maybe noteworthy to report to statisticians in order to discovery this extraordinary anomaly.

I think it depends on where you live. I don’t know if you live in America (Western Europe is an entirely different question), but here, there’s been a movement away from the Northeast and the Midwest (we now call them the “Rust Belt”) as people have followed jobs to the south and southwest (where the Catholic Church, ie, the NO Mass, has enjoyed enormous growth). The Diocese of Galveston-Houston recently was elevated to the rank of an Archdiocese, for all that it abuts an archdiocese (San Antonio). My hometown (Dallas) has over 1, 000, 000 Catholics living in the diocese. That’s a huge jump that began in the early 80’s. The churches there are also quite full.

 

[Uxor]

And that proves what??

If you want a TLM and that is the closest one, of course you’ll drive past parishes that don’t have a TLM. And if the reverse was true and someone wants an NO Mass, they would drive by the parishes offering only a TLM, but they likely wouldn’t be driving past other NO Mass offerings unless they were just looking for a specific priest or avoiding some particularly problematic parish.

It has nothing to do with one being better or worse, just which preference one has and how far they are willing to go to indulge that.

Hopefully it won’t be long until people won’t have to drive great distances for a TLM and can have what they want readily available.

It is a shame that people have to drive so far every Sunday to attend Mass when they are driving by dozens of parishes and feel they can’t attend because they don’t know what to expect or what they will have to subject themselves to… With the Tradtional Mass they do know what to expect.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

It is a very beautiful church. If I am ever out your way I will have to ask for permission to photograph it.

Yours in Christ,
Thursday

Our old pastor wanted to try and make it more traditional. You should have seen it before. Bleah!!! I’m hoping someday that the tabernacle will be moved to the center behind the altar (from just to the side, where it is now) and for an ad orientam Mass.

It is quite nice, thank you for noticing.