Can the Novus Ordo be reconciled with pre-Concillar documents on the Liturgy?

[Uxor]

Ok, just to get back on topic…

My question was not about which Rite is better (I think that answer is rather obvious ), or when the steepest drop in Church attendance was, or how “reverant” some Novus Ordos are. My question is whether or not it is possible for the Novus Ordo to be in line with pre-Concillar documents regarding Liturgical practices.

Someone posted here awhile back…the theology changed so that was the reason for the new Mass…How could it be reconciled unless you do away with the new theology.

 

[Caesar]

Someone posted here awhile back…the theology changed so that was the reason for the new Mass…How could it be reconciled unless you do away with the new theology.

And this is very true. The theology has changed a fair bit.

Today, the Mass is primarily a meal. If the Sacrificial nature of the Mass is acknowledged at all, it is downplayed. Everything about the NO proclaims this fact- from the lay readers and ministers, to the placement of the Altar, to the use of vernacular, to the audible Canon, the reception of the Eucharist in the hand, the dumbing-down of prayers, the overall focus on the people over God. This has harmed the Mass and it has harmed the priesthood.

 

[paramedicgirl]

Your email box is full.

I fixed it, now.

 

[paramedicgirl]

It’s alot easier to drive a car if there’s roads where u r. I’ve never driven a KM…are they made in Canadian? Why d ya need 600 of em anyway.

Actually, there isn’t anything else either between “here n there”.

It’ll be a fun drive, 'cause I’m taking my Mustang. Half of it is freeway, and I’ve never had it in fifth gear before. It’s not even broken in yet.

BTW, for the uninformed - 10 miles = 16 KM.

 

[paramedicgirl]

I’m not saying that it never happens, but from my experience it is an extreme rarity and I can’t imagine being able to find any statistical evidence to support people driving those distances to escape a single NO parish unless, like Paramedicgirl, they feel there just is no NO Mass available. If you can show me something besides some anecdotal evidence from a couple people, I’d love to see it, but the reason expressed by those at this site alone would seem not to support the idea.

I didn’t say that there was no Novus Ordo Mass available to me. There are plenty between here and Calgary. I said there are no REVERENT Masses available of any rite, unless of course you count the SSPX Mass which is a little closer than the FSSP.

I guess, according to ncjohn, I am an extreme rarity. That’s OK with me. I like being extreme, and I like being a rarity.

 

[ncjohn]

I didn’t say that there was no Novus Ordo Mass available to me. There are plenty between here and Calgary. I said there are no REVERENT Masses available of any rite, unless of course you count the SSPX Mass which is a little closer than the FSSP.

I guess, according to ncjohn, I am an extreme rarity. That’s OK with me. I like being extreme, and I like being a rarity.

Sorry, leaving the “reverent” out was a typo. I think it doesn’t really change the meaning though as “acceptable” is kind of implied by the statement. Sorry if I seemed to misquote you; it wasn’t intentional.

But yes, I think you are a rarity in this particular case if you really prefer the NO Mass and there truly isn’t an acceptable one within 600KM. Maybe Masses in Canada really are more different than I thought. The only ones I’ve been to were in Toronto, and they were kind of a mixed bag but certainly nothing horrible. The one time I was in BC we weren’t there for Sunday, so I’m not sure what the Masses are like there.

 

[paramedicgirl]

Sorry, leaving the “reverent” out was a typo. I think it doesn’t really change the meaning though as “acceptable” is kind of implied by the statement. Sorry if I seemed to misquote you; it wasn’t intentional.

But yes, I think you are a rarity in this particular case if you really prefer the NO Mass and there truly isn’t an acceptable one within 600KM. Maybe Masses in Canada really are more different than I thought. The only ones I’ve been to were in Toronto, and they were kind of a mixed bag but certainly nothing horrible. The one time I was in BC we weren’t there for Sunday, so I’m not sure what the Masses are like there.

I never said I really prefer the Novus Ordo Mass to the TLM. You are reading too much between the lines. I most definitely prefer the TLM to the Novus Ordo Mass, but if I could find a properly said Novus Ordo, I would not have to drive so far and spend an overnight trip to get to a reverent Mass.

 

[Uxor]

I

I’m not saying that it never happens, but from my experience it is an extreme rarity and I can’t imagine being able to find any statistical evidence to support people driving those distances to escape a single NO parish unless, like Paramedicgirl, they feel there just is no NO Mass available. If you can show me something besides some anecdotal evidence from a couple people, I’d love to see it, but the reason expressed by those at this site alone would seem not to support the idea.

Sure it is an extreme rarity, because there is only one Traditional Parish within driving distance of 6 or more states. Now as Traditional Parishes begin to form this will no be considered rare.
People driving to this traditional parish are being led by God and I don’t think they or the Priests are interested in providing anyone with some systematic scientific evaluation why they go there.

 

[ncjohn]

I never said I really prefer the Novus Ordo Mass to the TLM. You are reading too much between the lines. I most definitely prefer the TLM to the Novus Ordo Mass, but if I could find a properly said Novus Ordo, I would not have to drive so far and spend an overnight trip to get to a reverent Mass.

OK, then I misread what you were saying. The point Uxor was claiming was that the people at TLM Masses were there because they couldn’t find an acceptable NO Mass to attend. Since you responded affirmatively to that when I questioned it, I took that to mean that you were testifying that you were one who fit her description, and that there was at least one person to say that the claim was true.

Thanks for clarifying, and I apologize for my misreading.

 

[ncjohn]

Sure it is an extreme rarity, because there is only one Traditional Parish within driving distance of 6 or more states. Now as Traditional Parishes begin to form this will no be considered rare.
People driving to this traditional parish are being led by God and I don’t think they or the Priests are interested in providing anyone with some systematic scientific evaluation why they go there.

That’s perfectly fine.

My only point was that people who prefer the NO Mass don’t go to TLM’s, except to observe as an experience. And thus, the number of parishes that people drive by to get to a TLM is not relevant to anything because those parishes don’t have the TLM that they want to attend so of course they’re going to drive past them.

And as I said, I hope that ceases to be an issue soon so we can all attend the Mass we feel called to.

 

[paramedicgirl]

OK, then I misread what you were saying. The point Uxor was claiming was that the people at TLM Masses were there because they couldn’t find an acceptable NO Mass to attend. Since you responded affirmatively to that when I questioned it, I took that to mean that you were testifying that you were one who fit her description, and that there was at least one person to say that the claim was true.

Thanks for clarifying, and I apologize for my misreading.

Sorry I wasn’t more clear. The point I am making is that even though I prefer the TLM to the Novus Ordo, I still attend a less than reverent Novus Ordo because that’s all I have available to me. Because I am getting so sick of having to attend this type of Mass, I am going to make the long journey to a reverent Mass once a month, but will still go to the less desirable and less reverent Novus Ordo Mass in between.

But my real point was that if there was a reverent Novus Ordo closer than the TLM, I would go there simply because it was reverent and closer. I wouldn’t drive by a reverent Novus Ordo to get to a TLM that cost me two days of driving and time away from home.

 

[ncjohn]

But my real point was that if there was a reverent Novus Ordo closer than the TLM, I would go there simply because it was reverent and closer. I wouldn’t drive by a reverent Novus Ordo to get to a TLM that cost me two days of driving and time away from home.

I understand and I agree that that is what most people would do.

And I truly do feel bad that you don’t have something closer to you that meets your needs. I guess it’s part of our human lot that we can’t always get what we want–and sometimes not even what we need–but it doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t shoot for the ideal.

Peace,

 

[TNT]

…I am an extreme rarity. That’s OK with me. I like being extreme, and I like being a rarity.

http://images.auctions.overstock.com/aimages/d/0/3/854/38546676_1.jpg

 

[paramedicgirl]

http://images.auctions.overstock.com/aimages/d/0/3/854/38546676_1.jpg

 

[Uxor]

Ok…what am I missing here…engagement ring? This is the new way to ask someone to become engaged? LOL

 

[parvenu74]

My question is whether or not it is possible for the Novus Ordo to be in line with pre-Concillar documents regarding Liturgical practices.

Absolutely, positively, no. That said, I recently read a quote that said something to the effect of: It’s not the NOM that gave us the current problems in the Church, for these problems were festering and multiplying below the surface prior to the council when the TLM was the only Mass that could be found. On the contrary: the problems in the Church are what make it possible for us to have the NOM.

Which reminds me of yet another quote:

“The most evident mark of God’s anger and the most terrible castigation He can inflict on the world are manifested when He permits His people to fall into the hands of clergy who are priests more in name than in deed, priests who practice the cruelty of ravening wolves rather than the charity and affection of devoted shepherds. Instead of nourishing those committed to their care, they rend and devour them brutally. Instead of leading their people to God, they drag Christian souls into hell in their train. Instead of being the salt of the earth and the light of the world, they are its innocuous poison and its murky darkness. When God permits such things, it is a very positive proof that He is thoroughly angry with His people, and is visiting His most dreadful anger upon them. That is why He cries unceasingly to Christians, ‘Return, O ye revolting children… and I will give you pastors according to My own heart’ [Jer. 3:12-15]. Thus, irregularities in the lives of priests constitute a scourge visited upon the people in consequence of sin.” – Saint John Eudes

 

[Jerry_Mitchner]

A well-done NO liturgy is the exception; but every indult mass or Byzantine liturgy I’ve attended has left me with a sense of awe that stays with me throughout the day (or longer).

Minimalist liturgy seems better suited to the optimistic nihilism of Zen Buddhism, but does not fit well with the richness of the Catholic religion which embraces our creatureliness and supernaturally ennobles all that is natural and truly human. Centuries of gradual development have invested in the older form of the Roman rite an
incarnational integration of the transcendent supernatural mystery of the Holy Trinity with human aesthetics.

Attempts to make worship more “relevant” have made modern Catholic liturgy harder to distinguish from the rest of our more secular routines. Encounters with the All-Holy, Infinite, Eternal Trinity should challenge us in ways which are not always comfortable or mundane. Even our churches begin to look increasingly like convention centers. The question should not be “How relevant is God to our daily lives?”, but rather “How do we apprehend grace to relate our lives back to God?”.

The casual “folksiness” of modern liturgy is often forced and artificial. This casual tone together with liturgical minimalism subtly invites, in ways not intended by Rome, celebrants to ad lib to compensate for what we feel at some level is lacking. Note how the celebrant often greets the congregation just before beginning the ritual greeting at the beginning of the mass.

Priests are, for us in the sacred drama of the eucharistic liturgy, Jesus Christ himself. But instead of staying “in character”, the casual style of the NO tempts him to just “be himself”. It is no doubt healthy and wholesome for these good men to relate to others in a natural, down-to-earth manner outside the administration of the sacraments; but I go to confession or mass to encounter Jesus Christ, not to visit with Fr. Whozis. (no disrespect intended)

 

[Genesis315]

Per the OP, while many of the changes that were made were argued against in various papal encyclicals, Popes constantly affirmed their power to make the changes if they thought it best. As Pius XII even claimed the Spirit guided such changes:

“The sacred liturgy does, in fact, include divine as well as human elements. The former, instituted as they have been by God, cannot be changed in any way by men. But the human components admit of various modifications, as the needs of the age, circumstance and the good of souls may require, and as the ecclesiastical hierarchy, under guidance of the Holy Spirit, may have authorized.”

Ironically, it was Quo Primum that really consolidated all liturgical authority in the Holy See–she always had the authority, but until then she usually let other wield it. Without Quo Primum, Pastor Aeternus, and Mediator Dei, Missale Romanum might never have happened.

 

[bkovacs]

Doubt it. The majority of Roman Catholics today want to keep the Protestant traditions, like holding hands during the “Our Father”, eucharistic ministers, priest facing the people, instead of east like he is suppose to do, etcc. in the NO mass. “It should be a happy time to go to Mass”. Not a Sacrifice of the Mass, but a Celebration!!. :dancing:

 

[pnewton]

Per the OP, while many of the changes that were made were argued against in various papal encyclicals, Popes constantly affirmed their power to make the changes if they thought it best. As Pius XII even claimed the Spirit guided such changes:

“The sacred liturgy does, in fact, include divine as well as human elements. The former, instituted as they have been by God, cannot be changed in any way by men. But the human components admit of various modifications, as the needs of the age, circumstance and the good of souls may require, and as the ecclesiastical hierarchy, under guidance of the Holy Spirit, may have authorized.”
.

Based on this, then not reconciliation is needed. What I do not understand is why this is being debated on a traditionalist forum. I thought the TLM was what defined traditionalism and the current normative Mass was not even used.