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TrueLight
Guest
Do you have any references for this? I would love to know if any of the Saints did, but I couldn’t find any references.
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Leegal
Guest
Second post today that I’ve seen from you Trishie that directly answers the question. I would have said the same – why distract yourself from the sacrifice of the Mass when there are other opportunities to pray the Rosary?
I also something else posted by you today. Sorry, to be off topic – but whenever I happen upon your replies I am always impressed and comfortable that it is right. I think I can learn a lot from your post/replies.
po18guy
Well-known member
Absolutely. But, does this not point to the need to more profoundly involve the faithful in the liturgy?
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TimothyH
Guest
People used to pray the rosary because they couldn’t undersand Latin. Simply put, they prayed the rosary, and knelt down when they heard bells. No, I have no reference. I would assume that any saint who was also a priest or religious would understand Latin.
Especially in the middle ages, much of what the laity understood did not come from the words. The color of the priests vestments told them if it was a feast and if the feast was for a martyr, and what season of the liturgical calendar it was. White vestements for virgins, red for martyrs, purple during advent. Even rose colored vestments - a mixture of purple and white - are still used to indicate that we are half way through the advent season.
Commmon ceremonial actions communicated things to the laity who often could not understand Latin. I’m sure everyone who goes to the EF understand that there are thee kinds of bows - profound, moderate and simple. Where, when and how altar servers genuflected and bowed as they entered the Church, as they passed through the stalls which held the members of the clergy, indicated things to the laity, such as if a bishop was present or not.
These are just examples. Not everything was understood by everyone present, like today, were we can just look it up on the internet or post a question here on CAF. The calendar, sacred art and music, and the ceremony itself communicated a lot to those present who could not understand all of the language being spoken.
I think many would have understood some of the words from sheer repetition, such as hoc est enim corpus meum being repeated every day. But at a minimum, they didn’t understand all of the prayers on any given day, and so just prayed the rosary instead, confident in knowing that the priest stood at the altar representing Christ, offering prayers to God on their behalf, and that those prayers were effective even if they couldn’t understand what was being said. They said the rosary instead, in faith, knowing that it was one of the greatest prayers of the Church and basically the best they could do.
-Tim-
Especially in the middle ages, much of what the laity understood did not come from the words. The color of the priests vestments told them if it was a feast and if the feast was for a martyr, and what season of the liturgical calendar it was. White vestements for virgins, red for martyrs, purple during advent. Even rose colored vestments - a mixture of purple and white - are still used to indicate that we are half way through the advent season.
Commmon ceremonial actions communicated things to the laity who often could not understand Latin. I’m sure everyone who goes to the EF understand that there are thee kinds of bows - profound, moderate and simple. Where, when and how altar servers genuflected and bowed as they entered the Church, as they passed through the stalls which held the members of the clergy, indicated things to the laity, such as if a bishop was present or not.
These are just examples. Not everything was understood by everyone present, like today, were we can just look it up on the internet or post a question here on CAF. The calendar, sacred art and music, and the ceremony itself communicated a lot to those present who could not understand all of the language being spoken.
I think many would have understood some of the words from sheer repetition, such as hoc est enim corpus meum being repeated every day. But at a minimum, they didn’t understand all of the prayers on any given day, and so just prayed the rosary instead, confident in knowing that the priest stood at the altar representing Christ, offering prayers to God on their behalf, and that those prayers were effective even if they couldn’t understand what was being said. They said the rosary instead, in faith, knowing that it was one of the greatest prayers of the Church and basically the best they could do.
-Tim-
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TimothyH
Guest
People used to pray the rosary because they couldn’t undersand Latin. Simply put, they prayed the rosary, and knelt down when they heard bells. No, I have no reference. I would assume that any saint who was also a priest or religious would understand Latin.
Especially in the middle ages, much of what the laity understood did not come from the words. The color of the priests vestments told them if it was a feast and if the feast was for a martyr, and what season of the liturgical calendar it was. White vestements for virgins, red for martyrs, purple during advent. Even rose colored vestments - a mixture of purple and white - are still used to indicate that we are half way through the advent season.
We are going to be hearing the “O” antiphons soon. I can’t wait! And in the OF, we will hear the “O” prayers in the Mass as well, indicating that we are waiting for the advent of Christ, that it is Advent season.
Commmon ceremonial actions communicated things to the laity who often could not understand Latin. I’m sure everyone who goes to the EF understand that there are thee kinds of bows - profound, moderate and simple. Where, when and how altar servers genuflected and bowed as they entered the Church, as they passed through the stalls which held the members of the clergy, indicated things to the laity, such as if a bishop was present or not.
These are just examples. Not everything was understood by everyone present, like today, were we can just look it up on the internet or post a question here on CAF or order a missal with both latin and english with overnight shipping from Baronius Press. The calendar, sacred art and music, and the ceremony itself communicated a lot to those present who could not understand all of the language being spoken.
I think many would have understood some of the words from sheer repetition, such as hoc est enim corpus meum being repeated every day. But at a minimum, they didn’t understand all of the prayers on any given day, and so just prayed the rosary instead, confident in knowing that the priest stood at the altar representing Christ, offering prayers to God on their behalf, and that those prayers were effective even if they couldn’t understand what was being said. They said the rosary instead, in faith, knowing that it was one of the greatest prayers of the Church and basically the best they could do.
-Tim-
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TimothyH
Guest
The Mass was said facing the people in monastic communites since monastic communiteis started - Augustinian, Cistercian, Trappist, etc. The monks would actually all go up on the sanctuary during Mass, priests and brother’s who are not priests alike. This is still the practice at Cistercian monasteries. They brought me right up on the sanctuary as they all gathered around the altar when I was on a vocations retreat and I’m not even a Lay Cistercian. It is not an abuse, but an ancient form of the Mass, approved by the Church.
And that is really my point. I don’t say that because something has been done for ages that it is automatically correct, or that it is automatically good. That’s not what I’m saying. I’m not sure we really understand all the history behind it and we need to be careful before we condemn something that Holy Mother the Church has not condemned through many centuries of practice. That’s all I’m saying.
Maybe it is time to change? Maybe the Church should come out and say that in educated countries where people generally understand the language, that one should give all their attention to the prayers of the Mass, and should refrain from private devotion. I don’t know. I don’t know where that would leave millions of Mexicans in the US who don’t speak english well. I don’t know. I really don’t.
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Indyann
Guest
Would you go to a public recitation of the Rosary, and read your missal instead of praying the Rosary?
As has been said, the Mass is the communal worship of God by the Church and the Rosary is private devotion to Mary.
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TimothyH
Guest
Maybe so. Maybe, as stated in one of my other posts, maybe it is time to change, especially in the more educated countries. I don’t know.
It was because people didn’t understand latin, and in faith they believed that the priest stood in place of Christ offering prayers for them, and that those prayers were effective, even if they could’t understand those prayers. They participated by saying the rosary, and other private devotions, because it was the best they could do.
I think it will be very difficult for the universal Church to impose a rule that one cannot pray the rosary at some time, even if it is during the Mass. I can’t see that happening. Maybe an ecyclical which says that if you are at the Mass where you understand the language, your full attention should be on the Mass and not private devotion.
The OP was in the context of the EF, which I have little expereince with anyway. But restricting when and where anyone can say the rosary is going to make a whole bunch of old ladies, and not so old ladies, really upset. I mean like pitchforks and torches in the middle of the night upset.
-Tim-
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TimothyH
Guest
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joe_bell
Guest
I recommend one read Pope Pius XII’s 1947 encyclical Mediator Dei, paragraph 32 in particular. He lets it be known that pious devotions during Mass is permissible if it is coducive to one’s growth in grace.
While it is very laudable to make use of a missal in today’s age where they are readily available for the traditional Mass, at times or for those who have this devotion that aids them at times during Mass, it is permissible. Of course, special attention should be paid during the consecration.
Joe
While it is very laudable to make use of a missal in today’s age where they are readily available for the traditional Mass, at times or for those who have this devotion that aids them at times during Mass, it is permissible. Of course, special attention should be paid during the consecration.
Joe
po18guy
Well-known member
It is part of the universal call to catechesis. The mass is the high point of the priestly vocation. The Eucharist is the source and summit of our faith. The mass is heaven brought to earth. The entire point of formulating the NO was to involve those receiving (even those not receiving) the Sacrament in the sacrifice itself. Maybe I am being too harsh, but I see non-involvement in the mass via private devotion as similar - not equal - to those who receive and leave before the mass is ended. Neither is to be applauded. We are called to understand what is occurring, and to actively participate in it.Maybe so. Maybe, as stated in one of my other posts, maybe it is time to change, especially in the more educated countries. I don’t know.
It was because people didn’t understand latin, and in faith they believed that the priest stood in place of Christ offering prayers for them, and that those prayers were effective, even if they could’t understand those prayers. They participated by saying the rosary, and other private devotions, because it was the best they could do.
I think it will be very difficult for the universal Church to impose a rule that one cannot pray the rosary at some time, even if it is during the Mass. I can’t see that happening. Maybe an ecyclical which says that if you are at the Mass where you understand the language, your full attention should be on the Mass and not private devotion.
The OP was in the context of the EF, which I have little expereince with anyway. But restricting when and where anyone can say the rosary is going to make a whole bunch of old ladies, and not so old ladies, really upset. I mean like pitchforks and torches in the middle of the night upset.
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TimothyH
Guest
I see your point, but would caution that because someone is involved in a private devotion, does not mean that they are not involved in the Mass. Everyone has their little thing that they do, that thing that they think of, that prayer that they say, which is not strictly in the rubrics of the Mass, some more, some less, and it doesn’t mean that they are not involved in the Mass.
It can be taken to the other extreme. I have a friend who makes sure that he stands exactly when the priest stands, does not sit until the priest sits even if everyone else has sat down, only holds his hands in the perfect prayer position all the time, and all he does is stress over it and the fact that everyone else doesn’t do everything perfectly, and for him, it takes away from the Mass.
Heck, I was so lost in prayer once that I forgot to ring the bells. I was altar serving, and the priest was saying the preface, and I was kneeling and praying, and I was into it, praying hard, and the priest said, 'This is my body, given up for you." I remember thinking that something was missing, after just a moment I realized that there were no bells. Then I realized that I was the one who was supposed to ring the bells! I opened my eyes and the deacon was looking at me, shaking his hand like he was ringing the bells, trying to get my attention.
Pretty girls, the car repair bill, they guy behind me who didn’t brush his teeth. They all take away from attention. It’s not black and white. We can’t read people’s hearts.
-Tim-
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Indyann
Guest
To Jesus, through the INTERCESSION of Mary. Who do we ask 50 times to pray for us now and at the hour of our death?
It is still a private devotion and should not be prayed during Mass. Before and after is great, but all attention should be focused on the altar (except for the homily, of course) during Mass. Jesus gave us this wonderful gift and it’s kind of like saying “No thanks, I would rather say the Rosary”.
po18guy
Well-known member
Francis Cardinal Arinze writes that such practices were in the minds of the attendees of the second council. It may not have been the prime motivator for the NO mass, but such “divided attention” was one of the reasons.
Never mind the OF, EF, etc. This sounds like OCD!
However, such distractions are not by design. Big difference.
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JReducation
Guest
I think that we have to take this in tiny steps or we’ll end up all over the place here.
Br. JR, OSF
- The rosary is much younger than the mass. For centuries, the mass existed before the rosary. The rosary does not become popular until the 14th century. For 14 centuries the faithful would not have prayed the rosary during mass.
- Now we have to examine where it became common practice. Praying the rosary during mass became a common practice among Latin Catholic laypeople. It has always been prohibited in seminaries, monasteries, friaries, convents, priories and any other house where people are expected to have basic theological understanding of the mass.
- Here is the crux of the matter. The Church never approved of the recitation of the rosary during mass. The lay faithful did it and the clergy looked the other way, because “the laity don’t know any better”. That was the attitude.
- How do we know this was the attitude? If it had not been the case, every Latin Catholic would have been allowed to do so. This was not the case. Seminarians, clergy, friars, monks, nuns, religious brothers and sisters were not allowed, because they were expected to now more about the liturgy. Knowing more meant that they were expected to understand what the liturgy is really about.
- This was really an attitude that had its roots in the fact that the lay faithful were not well educated in liturgy. They were taught the rubrics, the rites, the prayers and given a rote summary of what the mass is, “the unbloody sacrifice of Calvary.” The truth is this statement is part of a summary statement. The theology of the mass involves much more than this single sentence.
- When we look at the theology of the mass, we realize that it’s a public prayer, whether you’re at a low mass that is quiet or an Ordinary Form mass which is interactive. Our attention should be focused on each part of the mass as we go along.
- The rosary, on the other hand, is a private devotion, which is not even commonly shared by the universal Church. It is more common in the Latin Church. When you pray the rosary during the mass, you enter into another mode of prayer that is not shared prayer. Nor is the rosary the prayer of the Church. The prayer of the Church is liturgical prayer, the mass and the LOTH. In reality, you’re breaking communion with those around you.
- We go to the altar as one people before one God to hear the one Word, offer the one sacrifice and receive the one Lord in the Eucharist.
- While the rosary is a very powerful prayer, it is not liturgical.
- Finally, we no longer live in an era where the Church looks the other way, because the layman doesn’t know better or can’t know better. Such an attitude today is condescending and offensive. The laity has the capacity to understand the difference between liturgy and private devotion, between public and private prayer, and it has the capacity to understand the full theology behind that simple statement that we learned in the Baltimore Catechism.
- It’s not a matter of right or wrong, but a matter of appropriateness. The mass is not the appropriate time for private devotion.
Br. JR, OSF
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Trishie
Guest
Thank you Brother. You said it so much better than I did when I tried to respond.
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Aramis
Guest
One should be united in one’s prayers with those of the celebrant.
If one is performing what is, at its root, a private devotional, (and one that is often used to distance one’s self from one’s surroundings,) that certainly seems at odds with “full, active, and conscious participation” in the mass.
And group recitation during the mass is just plain disruptive.
The Rosary has often been used by modern Martyrs and victims of persecution to give them the distance from their pains and suffering, so that they might struggle on and/or face their upcoming demise. It is a good, pious practice to say it before the mass, after the mass.
And, at the worst points, the people poorly catechized and often not understanding latin, the priest mumbling along, and no amplification, it could be hard to tell where in the mass the priest was. So, it’s definitely better than being disconnected with everything, but it’s still suboptimal.
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Laudate_Dominum
Guest
[Deleted]
Tim already made the same point.
Tim already made the same point.
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MartyrForJesus
Guest
Thanks all, especially Br. Jr, who clarified the situation.
I decided not to pray the Rosary during Low Mass today, because I opened the mini-Missal and on the first page was a quote from Pope St. Pius X saying:
I decided not to pray the Rosary during Low Mass today, because I opened the mini-Missal and on the first page was a quote from Pope St. Pius X saying:
I doubt that was a coincidence.
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