Can there be female deacons?

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Markus2007

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Hi,

I recently had a discussion with an eastern-orthodox friend of mine who told me that they have female deacons in their church. Currently, women can not be ordained as deacons in the Catholic Church. Is it possible that this might change in the future, or is this not possible due to the infallible declaration of ordinatio sacerdotalis by John Paul II?

My understanding was that the ordination of deacons is part of the sacrament of holy orders, which is reserved for men only (which as I said was infallible affirmed by JPII in ordinatio saceratotalis). However, my friend pointed out to me that there was at the very least one female deacon in Church history, namely Olympias of Constantinople (also known as Olympias the deaconess, she is a canonized saint in the Catholic Church as well as the eastern-orthodox). How can this be?

Also, my friend claimed that Phoebe from St. Paul’s letter the the romans served as a deaconess.

Any information regarding this issue would be greatly appreciated! Thanks
 
JPII didn’t make any infallible statements. The last time one was made was back in 1854, or something like that. Either way, I don’t see women becoming deacons. I, for one, have no urge that direction. Maybe some women do, but like with everything else (even with men) their motivation needs to be checked. With both men and women we need to make sure that it’s an authentic call and not from a “power hungry” push.
 
Christy_Beth said:
JPII didn’t make any infallible statements.
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Why do you think so? Did you read Ordinatio Sacerdotalis? There is no doubt that he made a final, authoritative, infallible statement regarding the issue. You could say he did not infallible “define” a dogma, only (infallibly) “affirm” it - but the end result remains the same.

I have not heard this fact disputed by anybody in the Church or any notable written source.
 
Markus2007 said:
I recently had a discussion with an eastern-orthodox friend of mine who told me that they have female deacons in their church.
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I am not aware of deaconesses in the EO Churches. But if so, they are not ordained-- they are not “female deacons”. The Orthodox teaching is the same as ours regarding the priesthood.

Edited to add: I did a couple of searches and it does seem that the GO have reinstituted deaconesses in some of their female monastic orders. Again, they are deaconesses, not female deacons.
Markus2007 said:
Currently, women can not be ordained as deacons in the Catholic Church. Is it possible that this might change in the future, or is this not possible due to the infallible declaration of ordinatio sacerdotalis by John Paul II?
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Women cannot be ordained, deaconesses or otherwise.

The confusion comes in because in the early church “deaconess” referred to either the wife of a deacon (i.e. prince to princess) or to a woman assigned to assist females at baptism for modesty. Thy were not ordained to holy orders, nor can women be ordained to holy orders.
Markus2007 said:
My understanding was that the ordination of deacons is part of the sacrament of holy orders, which is reserved for men only
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You are correct.
Markus2007 said:
However, my friend pointed out to me that there was at the very least one female deacon in Church history, namely Olympias of Constantinople (also known as Olympias the deaconess, she is a canonized saint in the Catholic Church as well as the eastern-orthodox). How can this be?
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There is no doubt that there were women in the early church referred to as deaconesses (NOT as deacons). But, it does not follow that these were the same as deacons nor that they were ordained. There is no evidence of any female ordination.
Markus2007 said:
Also, my friend claimed that Phoebe from St. Paul’s letter the the romans served as a deaconess.
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That is certainly possible. Remember, the root word for deacon, which is now something very specific in the Church, is diakonia-- a Greek word simply meaning service. This root word is used, for example, in the story of Martha and Mary. Diakonia in no way implies ordination. All of us, as disciples, are called to diakonia. The ordained ministry of deacon grew out of the general call to service. Just as the sacerdotal priesthood is a particular ministry but we all remain part of the universal priesthood.
 
1ke said:
There is no doubt that there were women in the early church referred to as deaconesses (NOT as deacons). But, it does not follow that these were the same as deacons nor that they were ordained. There is no evidence of any female ordination.
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Thank you for your response.

Wikipedia (the German version) however claims that St. Olympias was “ordained” by “Patriarch Nektarios I.”
 
Markus2007 said:
Thank you for your response.

Wikipedia (the German version) however claims that St. Olympias was “ordained” by “Patriarch Nektarios I.”
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Well, it’s Wikipedia. One should not attempt to get one’s theology from Wikipedia.

Ordained in the sense of the priesthood-- no.

Perhaps ordained in the sense of commissioned.
 
1ke said:
Well, it’s Wikipedia. One should not attempt to get one’s theology from Wikipedia.

Ordained in the sense of the priesthood-- no.

Perhaps ordained in the sense of commissioned.
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Thank you, perhaps you are right.

I’ve found this site which also claims an “ordination” by Nektarios: monasticmatrix.org/vitae/olympias

Other than that, there are a few sites that seem to focus on “women ordination” who claim the same, however at times give conflicting reports (this site claims she was “ordained” by St John Chrysostom ministryforwomen.org/care/stsdeac.asp)

This is quite confusing for someone like me who is neither a theologian nor a historian
 
St. John Chrysostom had 300+ women deacons under him in Constantinople around A.D. 400. Female deacons were a fact of the early Church - but not female bishops or priests.

The early deaconesses were only needed to baptize adult women & apply the chrism after baptism, when the female catechumens were unclothed. It was for the sake of decency. The women-diaconate ceased to exist when infant baptism became the norm. 🙂
 
Classicist said:
St. John Chrysostom had 300+ women deacons under him in Constantinople around A.D. 400. Female deacons were a fact of the early Church - but not female bishops or priests.

The early deaconesses were only needed to baptize adult women & apply the chrism after baptism, when the female catechumens were unclothed. It was for the sake of decency. The women-diaconate ceased to exist when infant baptism became the norm. 🙂
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So did these women receive the sacrament of holy orders?
 
Q: Can there be female deacons?
A: Uhhh… well… No.

Q: Can there be male nuns?
A: errr… you see… No.

God bless,
Deus, Salus Nostra :gopray2:
 
Seriously to be helpful, the Greek Orthodox did unfortunately perform fake “ordination” of some women.

These women were cloistered Nuns, and the reason for their ordination was so that they could take Holy Communion to other nuns. These “Deacons” were very rarely seen performing a liturgical functions.

There were also Deaconesses in the early Church. Deaconesses are not the same as Deacons. In fact, Deaconesses were the wives of Deacons and their specific job was decorating the altar for the celebration of the Divine Liturgy (Mass).

Pax vobis,
Deus, Salus Nostra :gopray2:
 
DeusSalusNostra said:
Seriously to be helpful, the Greek Orthodox did unfortunately perform fake “ordination” of some women.

These women were cloistered Nuns, and the reason for their ordination was so that they could take Holy Communion to other nuns. These “Deacons” were very rarely seen performing a liturgical functions.

There were also Deaconesses in the early Church. Deaconesses are not the same as Deacons. In fact, Deaconesses were the wives of Deacons and their specific job was decorating the altar for the celebration of the Divine Liturgy (Mass).

Pax vobis,
Deus, Salus Nostra :gopray2:
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Source?
 
1ke said:
This is not correct. Ordinatio Sacerdotalis is an exercise of the Pope’s ex cathedra infallibilty.
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That is an incorrect understanding (understandable --but incorrect).

It was not an exercise in such in Ordinatio Sacerdotalis.

It is infallible via the universal ordinary Magisterium.

Bl. Pope John Paul II was not defining it – he was drawing attention to the fact that the Church cannot ordain women to the Ministerial Priesthood.
 
Classicist said:
St. John Chrysostom had 300+ women deacons under him in Constantinople around A.D. 400.
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No, he did not have female deacons. He had deaconesses. A deaconess is not a “female deacon”. A male deacon and a deaconess are not the same thing.
 
DeusSalusNostra said:
There were also Deaconesses in the early Church. Deaconesses are not the same as Deacons. In fact, Deaconesses were the wives of Deacons and their specific job was decorating the altar for the celebration of the Divine Liturgy (Mass).
:
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Thank you, but this condradicts what Classicist said and also what several websites claim (I don’t know how credible they are). In the case of St. Olympias, it seems that she was indeed an (ordained, or so it is stated) deacon herself (her husband was not a deacon and died early leaving her a widow).

If it is indeed true that

1st There used to be female ordained deacons in the Church

2nd Pope JP2 infallibly affirmed that the Church has no authority to ordain women

this would mean that

A The Church was in error ordaining these women

B The Pope was in error declaring infallibly that women cannot be ordained

I think option B is not logically possible (something cannot be infallible and in error at the same time).

Am I missing/misunderstanding something?

Also, I noticed that in the Englisch text of Ordinatio Sacerdotalis it says: “… I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer **priestly ordination **on women …”.

Is there a difference between “priestly ordination” and “holy orders”? Does the first mean only the ordination to the position of priest (not deacon)? In the German translation, it is the same word both times (both in the text of the encyclical and in the name of the Sacrament), namely “Priesterweihe”.

Edit: I do not know if these female deacons were indeed ordained, but it is was multiple sources are claiming (including my friend who I talked with, and talked about in my opening post). My historical knowledge is certainly not good enough to confirm or deny it.
 
As to women deacons.

There were women called by a name of the like of “deacons” (but female --deaconess) in the early centuries --they assisted the women. (By stating such I am not saying they were Ordained Deacons)
 
Ordinatio Sacerdotalis was NOT an exercise of ex cathedra infallibility.

It is infallible via the universal ordinary Magisterium.

Bl. Pope John Paul II was not defining it – he was drawing attention to the fact that the Church cannot ordain women to the Ministerial Priesthood.

He was not formally defining it – but rather formally reaffirming that such is the case –formally declaring that such is the case.

(And yes such was referring to the reality (the infallible teaching) that the Church is not able to confer *Priestly *ordination on women.)
 
Markus2007 said:
So did these women receive the sacrament of holy orders?
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They did not, because that is not possible.

The word “deacon” was not coined to describe the particular level of Holy Orders; merely equivocating in the use of a Greek word in ancient Greek times does not constitute any theological crisis. We are often guilty of reading our 21st century reality - that a “deacon” is by definition a man in Holy Orders - onto the early Church.
 
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