Can there be female deacons?

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This is my conclusion from this thread;

Women are not able to be ordained. Women are therefore unable to receive Holy Orders. Women therefore cannot be deacons, ever. There have been deaconesses but this is not the same as being a deacon and that to think otherwise would be mistake. What this would mean is any Bishop that would bestow Holy Orders on a woman would be doing so against the will of God and His Church. Not to mention the ordination would automatically be void since the recipient would be female so the Bishop couldn’t ordain a woman even if he wanted to.
 
Bookcat said:
Ordinatio Sacerdotalis was NOT an exercise of ex cathedra infallibility.

It is infallible via the universal ordinary Magisterium.

Bl. Pope John Paul II was not defining it – he was drawing attention to the fact that the Church cannot ordain women to the Ministerial Priesthood.

He was not formally defining it – but rather formally reaffirming that such is the case –formally declaring that such is the case.

(And yes such was referring to the reality (the infallible teaching) that the Church is not able to confer *Priestly *ordination on women.)
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The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith responded to a dubium regarding Ordinatio Sacerdotalis:

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19951028_dubium-ordinatio-sac_en.html
 
I’m shocked at such poor scholarship.

Of course there can be females ordained to the diaconate.

Constitutiones Apostolorum Book 8"Concerning the Deaconess— The Constitution of Bartholomew.XIX. Concerning a deaconess, I Bartholomew make this constitution: O bishop, you shall lay your hands upon her in the presence of the presbytery, and of the deacons and deaconesses, and shall say:—The Form of Prayer for the Ordination of a Deaconess.XX . O Eternal God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Creator of man and of woman, who replenished with the Spirit Miriam, and Deborah, and Anna, and Huldah; who did not disdain that Your only begotten Son should be born of a woman; who also in the tabernacle of the testimony, and in the temple, ordained women to be keepers of Your holy gates—do Thou now also look down upon this Your servant, who is to be ordained to the office of a deaconess, and grant her Your Holy Spirit, and cleanse her from all filthiness of flesh and spirit, 2 Corinthians 7:1 that she may worthily discharge the work which is committed to her to Your glory, and the praise of Your Christ, with whom glory and adoration be to You and the Holy Spirit for ever. Amen."*

Chalcedon Canon 15"A woman shall not receive the laying on of hands as a deaconess under forty years of age, and then only after searching examination. And if, after she has had hands laid on her and has continued for a time to minister, she shall despise the grace of God and give herself in marriage, she shall be anathematized and the man united to her."D)

Trullo Canon 14:“Let the canon of our holy God-bearing Fathers be confirmed in this particular also; that a presbyter be not ordained before he is thirty years of age, even if he be a very worthy man, but let him be kept back. For our Lord Jesus Christ was baptized and began to teach when he was thirty. In like manner let no deacon be ordained before he is twenty-five, nor a deaconess before she is forty.”

When they are ordained by the laying on of hands, the word used is CHEIROTONIA not Cheirothesia like for the minor orders (conscrated nuns and widows).

“…the bishop still imposed his hands (cheirotonia) on a deaconess, and conferred on her the orarion or stole (both ends of which were worn at the front, one over the other); he gave her the chalice, which she placed on the altar without giving communion to anyone. Deaconesses were ordained in the course of the Eucharistic liturgy, in the sanctuary, like deacons.”
 
Markus2007 said:
Hi,

I recently had a discussion with an eastern-orthodox friend of mine who told me that they have female deacons in their church. Currently, women can not be ordained as deacons in the Catholic Church. Is it possible that this might change in the future, or is this not possible due to the infallible declaration of ordinatio sacerdotalis by John Paul II?

My understanding was that the ordination of deacons is part of the sacrament of holy orders, which is reserved for men only (which as I said was infallible affirmed by JPII in ordinatio saceratotalis). However, my friend pointed out to me that there was at the very least one female deacon in Church history, namely Olympias of Constantinople (also known as Olympias the deaconess, she is a canonized saint in the Catholic Church as well as the eastern-orthodox). How can this be?

Also, my friend claimed that Phoebe from St. Paul’s letter the the romans served as a deaconess.

Any information regarding this issue would be greatly appreciated! Thanks
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I am Roman Catholic but have two best friends who are Eastern Orthodox they now live in Ireland but have lived in Russia, Greece and come from Latvia, they tell me there is no such thing as a Female deacon or female deaconess in the Orthodox Church, and she says if your friend tells you this where is the evidence there is none, someone is telling pork pies. The Orthodox are like ourselves, in fact more stricter, they don’t allow female altar servers even.
You need to go back to your friend and tell her not to be making things up. Priesthood is for men only, get over it, one can serve the Church as a layperson, or as a nun.
 
capablanca911 said:
I’m shocked at such poor scholarship.

Of course there can be females ordained to the diaconate.
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It would indeed take scholarship to tackle the question of the deaconess in the Church over the centuries --and there can be confusion in understanding what the deaconess was and what she did or did not do and what the ordination of a deaconess meant. Misconceptions too can enter in prima facie.

It would take in fact a book to deal sort though and understand what historically was the case in various places and times.

One coming from a good source: “Deaconesss an Historical Study” by Aime Georges Martimort Published by Ignatius Press ignatius.com/Products/DEAC-P/deaconesses.aspx
 
capablanca911 said:
Constitutiones Apostolorum Book 8"Concerning the Deaconess— The Constitution of Bartholomew.XIX. Concerning a deaconess, I Bartholomew make this constitution: O bishop, you shall lay your hands upon her
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This action did not appear to be the laying of hands for ordination in the sense of the sacrament of Holy Orders, but rather an official appointment or blessing. For later in the Apostolic Constitutions (#28) you cite, it reads:*A deaconess does not bless, nor perform anything belonging to the office of presbyters or deacons, but only is to keep the doors, and to minister to the presbyters in the baptizing of women, on account of decency. A deacon separates a sub-deacon, a reader, a singer, and a deaconess, if there be any occasion, in the absence of a presbyter. It is not lawful for a sub-deacon to separate either one of the clergy or laity; nor for a reader, nor for a singer, nor for a deaconess, for they are the ministers to the deacons.*A deacon we know is ordained, and the deaconess was said to perform nothing belonging to that office.

Similarly, at the council of Nicea in 325, there is reference to no hands at all layed on a deaconess in the sense of sacramental ordination. For it reads:
*Similarly with regard to deaconesses and all in general whose names have been included in the roll, the same form shall be observed. We refer to deaconesses who have been granted this status, for they do not receive any imposition of hands, so that they are in all respects to be numbered among the laity (Canon 19).*So ultimately, there may be some confusion that laying on of hands always and everywhere = sacramental ordination. But that is not necessarily the case. It seems the gesture is associated with sacraments, but not exclusive to sacraments.

Theologically speaking, it would seem that since the deaconite is associated as a function of Christ’s ministry, a male representative would be necessary to preserve the necessary form of the sacrament of holy orders.
 
I think people are missing a key piece here…the early Church did not use theological terminology as precisely or in the exact same manner as the modern Latin Church. Theology and theological language have developed over time as our understanding of the deposit of faith has grown under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. The early Church did indeed speak of ordaining women deaconesses, but it is clear from the texts that the office of deaconess, while an important office in the life of the Church, was completely distinct from that of the office of deacon. The early Church also spoke of ordaining men as monks and abbots - at least in some texts…so it is important to recognize that the verb to ordain was not used in the same precise manner that it is today. Today we associate ordination with the conferring of the sacrament of holy orders, but it was used much more loosely in the past. It is also important to remember that the early Church, as well as modern Eastern Orthodoxy, did not formally distinguish between sacraments and sacramentals. Even today, when a nun is enthroned as an abbess, the ceremony has many external similarities with an ordination, but the Church understands the blessing of an abbess to be a sacramental that confers special authority and graces, rather than the sacrament of holy orders. The same would be true of the religious professions of monks and nuns, the institution of acolytes, or the blessing of an abbot.

For the record, the Greek Orthodox Church has reinstituted the office of deaconess, but a deaconess plays no liturgical role in parish life - she is not a female deacon - in fact, Orthodoxy forbids women to enter the sanctuary at all under almost all circumstances. (Our female altar servers are a great scandal for many Orthodox Christians).
 
Bookcat said:
That is an incorrect understanding (understandable --but incorrect).

It was not an exercise in such in Ordinatio Sacerdotalis.

It is infallible via the universal ordinary Magisterium.

Bl. Pope John Paul II was not defining it – he was drawing attention to the fact that the Church cannot ordain women to the Ministerial Priesthood.
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👍👍👍👍

Also, might I add that the ‘Female “Deacons”’ (remembering the Ordination was invalid)
in the the Greek Orthodox Church only lasted for about 50 years in the 18th Century, the Holy Synod in Greece has sinced apologised for attempting such a thing.

I’ll try and find the source for you, it’s in an old book that I found in a library.

Christ instituted the First Apostles Priests when he said the words “Do this in commemoration of me”. If Christ wanted men to be Priests/Deacons/Bishops, he would have made it so. But, he didn’t. So, in the grace of God, let us be obedient and try and achieve the great Sacrament of Salvation that could await us!

Pax vobis,
Deus, Salus Nostra :gopray2:
 
MarcoPolo;106959 0:
This action did not appear to be the laying of hands for ordination in the sense of the sacrament of Holy Orders, but rather an official appointment or blessing. For later in the Apostolic Constitutions (#28) you cite, it reads:A deaconess does not bless, nor perform anything belonging to the office of presbyters or deacons, but only is to keep the doors, and to minister to the presbyters in the baptizing of women, on account of decency. A deacon separates a sub-deacon, a reader, a singer, and a deaconess, if there be any occasion, in the absence of a presbyter. It is not lawful for a sub-deacon to separate either one of the clergy or laity; nor for a reader, nor for a singer, nor for a deaconess, for they are the ministers to the deacons.A deacon we know is ordained, and the deaconess was said to perform nothing belonging to that office.

Similarly, at the council of Nicea in 325, there is reference to no hands at all layed on a deaconess in the sense of sacramental ordination. For it reads:
Similarly with regard to deaconesses and all in general whose names have been included in the roll, the same form shall be observed. We refer to deaconesses who have been granted this status, for they do not receive any imposition of hands, so that they are in all respects to be numbered among the laity (Canon 19).So ultimately, there may be some confusion that laying on of hands always and everywhere = sacramental ordination. But that is not necessarily the case. It seems the gesture is associated with sacraments, but not exclusive to sacraments.

Theologically speaking, it would seem that since the deaconite is associated as a function of Christ’s ministry, a male representative would be necessary to preserve the necessary form of the sacrament of holy orders.
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You are misinformed.

As far as ordained to an ‘office’ consider another translation of the Apostolic Constitutions

“look now upon your servant before you,proposed for the diaconate: grant her the Holy Spirit and purify her of all defilement of flesh and spirit so that she may acquit herself worthily of theoffice*which has been entrusted to her…”

That’s from the Vatican’s International Theological Commission’s study on the diaconate, so you can hardly say I’m translation shopping.

As far as Nicea, you are misreading the canon.

“Can. 19 of the Council of Nicaea (325) could be interpreted not as refusing the imposition of hands to all deaconesses in general, but as the simple statement that the deaconesses from the party of Paul of Samosata did not receive the imposition of hands, and “were anyway counted among the laity”, and that it was also necessary to re-ordain them, after having re-baptised them, like the other ministers of this dissident group who returned to the Catholic Church.*”

Source footnote 65 here : vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_con_cfaith_pro_05072004_diaconate_en.html

Also, Fr Hopko the Dean Emeritus of St Vladimir’s Orthodox Seminary agrees with that interpretation. audio.ancientfaith.com/hopko/stt_2011-02-07.mp3Start at the 42:26 mark.

Also note the ITC’s important clarification: “The compiler additionally distinguishes betweencheirotonia andcheirothesia, which is simply a gesture of blessing (cf. 8, 16, 3 and 8, 28, 2-3).”

As I have already said a female ordained to the diaconate doesn’t get a blessing the way an exorcist gets one (cheirothesia) but she gets ordained the way a deacon is ordained (cheirotonia).

Of course the female ordained to the diaconate cannot do everything a deacon does.

Irrelevant to the OP.

What is relevant is that a female as a matter of dogma, is not prohibited from being ordained to the diaconate.
 
Because they are excluded via eastern and western canon law.

Dogmatically, there is no exclusion on the one hand, and strong historical evidence for it on the other.
 
By way of a summary of part of the question from the above:

"With regard to the ordination of women to the diaconate, it should be noted that two important indications emerge from what has been said up to this point:
  1. The deaconesses mentioned in the tradition of the ancient Church - as evidenced by the rite of institution and the functions they exercised - were not purely and simply equivalent to the deacons;
  2. The unity of the sacrament of Holy Orders, in the clear distinction between the ministries of the bishop and the priests on the one hand and the diaconal ministry on the other, is strongly underlined by ecclesial tradition, especially in the teaching of the Magisterium.
In the light of these elements which have been set out in the present historico-theological research document, it pertains to the ministry of discernment which the Lord established in his Church to pronounce authoritatively on this question."
 
If we read the Church Fathers, we read that the role of “deaconess” never referred to an ordained woman, because the Church has always known that She has no authority to ordain women 🤷

Council of Nicaea I, Canon 19:
Similarly, in regard to the deaconesses, as with all who are enrolled in the register, the same procedure is to be observed. We have made mention of the deaconesses, who have been enrolled in this position, although, not having been in any way ordained, they are certainly to be numbered among the laity.
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Council of Orange I, Canon 15:
Deaconesses are certainly not to be ordained, and if there are some, they must bow their head under the blessing given to the people.
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Epiphanius of Salamis:
It is true that in the Church there is an order of deaconesses, but not for being a priestess …] From this bishop [James the Just] and the just-named apostles, the succession of bishops and presbyters [priests] in the house of God have been established. Never was a woman called to these. . . . According to the evidence of Scripture, there were, to be sure, the four daughters of the evangelist Philip, who engaged in prophecy, but they were not priestesses. If women were to be charged by God with entering the priesthood or with assuming ecclesiastical office, then in the New Covenant it would have devolved upon no one more than Mary to fulfill a priestly function. She was invested with so great an honor as to be allowed to provide a dwelling in her womb for the heavenly God and King of all things, the Son of God. . . . But he did not find this [the conferring of priesthood on her] good.
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Council of Nimes, Canon 2:
There is a report that women seem to have been, we know not in what place, admitted to the levitical ministry, contrary to apostolic discipline,and unknown until today …an ordination of this sort must be annulled,and care taken that no one for the future be so bold.
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Sixth Council of Paris, Canon 49:
That women must not go to the altar is abundantly found in the Council of Laodicea and in the decrees of Pope Gelasius. So this so illicit a thing, entirely abhorrent to the Christian religion, is forbidden for the future.
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Apostolic Constitutions:
Chose as a deaconess a faithful and holy woman for the ministry of women …] For we need a female deaconess for many things …] A deaconess does not bless, but neither does she perform anything else that is done by presbyters and deacons
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There can be no doubt that the Holy Orders have been established for men. It would be blasphemous to consider that this is offensive or degrading to women, because this would imply that Christ, in choosing to take flesh as a man, offended the dignity of women, and this cannot be so: the coming of Christ restored the high dignity of both man and woman, and His being a man and establishing that the Holy Orders would be conferred upon men alone He greatly dignifies both man and woman. It could not be otherwise.
 
Ar the end of the document from the ** International Theological Commission** From the Diakonia of Christ to the Diakonia of the Apostles* it is stated:

"With regard to the ordination of women to the diaconate, it should be noted that two important indications emerge from what has been said up to this point:
  1. The deaconesses mentioned in the tradition of the ancient Church - as evidenced by the rite of institution and the functions they exercised - were not purely and simply equivalent to the deacons;
  2. The unity of the sacrament of Holy Orders, in the clear distinction between the ministries of the bishop and the priests on the one hand and the diaconal ministry on the other, is strongly underlined by ecclesial tradition, especially in the teaching of the Magisterium.
In the light of these elements which have been set out in the present historico-theological research document, it pertains to the ministry of discernment which the Lord established in his Church to pronounce authoritatively on this question."
 
capablanca911 said:
Of course the female ordained to the diaconate cannot do everything a deacon does.

Irrelevant to the OP.

What is relevant is that a female as a matter of dogma, is not prohibited from being ordained to the diaconate.
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So the office of a deaconess is different from that of a deacon. Does this also mean that it’s ordination is not identical with the Sacrament of Holy Orders? I don’t see how it could be part of the Sacrament of Holy Orders considering Ordinatio Sacerdotalis.

If the office is different and the ordination is also different, the only thing that unites the two is the term “deaconate”?
 
Ar the end of the document from the ** International Theological Commission** From the Diakonia of Christ to the Diakonia of the Apostles* it is stated:

"With regard to the ordination of women to the diaconate, it should be noted that two important indications emerge from what has been said up to this point:
  1. The deaconesses mentioned in the tradition of the ancient Church - as evidenced by the rite of institution and the functions they exercised - were not purely and simply equivalent to the deacons;
  2. The unity of the sacrament of Holy Orders, in the clear distinction between the ministries of the bishop and the priests on the one hand and the diaconal ministry on the other, is strongly underlined by ecclesial tradition, especially in the teaching of the Magisterium.
In the light of these elements which have been set out in the present historico-theological research document, it pertains to the ministry of discernment which the Lord established in his Church to pronounce authoritatively on this question."

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_con_cfaith_pro_05072004_diaconate_en.html
 
Markus2007 said:
So the office of a deaconess is different from that of a deacon. Does this also mean that it’s ordination is not identical with the Sacrament of Holy Orders? I don’t see how it could be part of the Sacrament of Holy Orders considering Ordinatio Sacerdotalis.
?
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Ordinatio Sacerdotalis – is a document regarding the Priesthood.

As to deaconesses – please see the document I will post next.
 
At the end of the document from the ** International Theological Commission** From the Diakonia of Christ to the Diakonia of the Apostles* it is stated:

"With regard to the ordination of women to the diaconate, it should be noted that two important indications emerge from what has been said up to this point:
  1. The deaconesses mentioned in the tradition of the ancient Church - as evidenced by the rite of institution and the functions they exercised - were not purely and simply equivalent to the deacons;
  2. The unity of the sacrament of Holy Orders, in the clear distinction between the ministries of the bishop and the priests on the one hand and the diaconal ministry on the other, is strongly underlined by ecclesial tradition, especially in the teaching of the Magisterium.
In the light of these elements which have been set out in the present historico-theological research document, it pertains to the ministry of discernment which the Lord established in his Church to pronounce authoritatively on this question."

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_con_cfaith_pro_05072004_diaconate_en.html

(not a document of the Magisterium of course but they do very fine Theological work --headed by then Cardinal Ratzinger…)
 
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