Can third world nations afford the Pope's demands to use feeding tubes?

[kmktexas]

Tens of milions??? There are less than 300 million people in the whole US and a third of them aren’t old enough to sign anything, let alone a living will. According to what I could find on the net, even amoung senior citizens and near-seniors, not even half of the adults asked had living wills. Most living wills stipulate to terminal conditions (not the kind of situation we are witnessing with Terri Schiavo) and most talk about rescuitation or heroic efforts, not nutrition and hydration.

And yes, the Pope is right to say that family members and medical professionals should do all they can to give the basics of food and hydration to all patients, regardless of disabilty.

Nowhere in that address did the Holy Father even mention inserting feeding tubes. He spoke of **not ceasing ** the minimal care, including nutrition and hydration. This application of this address to feeding tubes only works in locations where there is the medical feasibility of using feeding tubes in the first place. Feeding tubes are also used in home care (though of course not inserted there) so your numbers about nursing homes have no bearing in this discussion.

Sounds like just another anti-Catholic rant to me.

 

[Steven_Merten]

HagiaSophia:

FWIW - I have no idea why you have posted this in the News section; I should think it’s more of a moral theology question and should be posted there.

Now having said that, let me adress Mr. Merton specifically:

in another thread you asked that I provide you with the church statements on feeding and hydration. I did so. You are now attempting to “twist” that statement into some nonsensical argument you seem to be having with yourself more than anyone.

Living proof that the capabiity of reading does not always include comprehension or reasonable analysis.

Hello HagiaSophia,

Thank you for posting the link.

America spent 7% of its GNP on health care in 1970 and 23% of its GNP on health care in 2000 and it is expected to grow to 50% of its GNP on health care by 2050. I would say we are doing more than any other nation on earth to keep people alive and care for the downtrodden. Yet the Pope now puts eternal death punsihment on us, not third world nations, for being so progressive in caring for the health of our people.

Many Americans just want to die a natural death when health leads them this direction. They do not want to spend decades in nursing homes with tubes coming out of their noses in a vegitative state. Please Holy Father, respect their decisions to only live as long as God allows them to do so, as it has been for mileniums, without man’s artificial intervention. Why bind them to hell for the mortal sin of suicide because they do not want feeding tubes.

P.S. Was this Papal statement not in the news?

Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com

 

[JustSomeGuy]

Steve Merten:

Nursing home care costs about $6000.00 per month in America. Now that the Pope has instructed third world nations that not using feeding tubes is murder, how can they sustain the cost of obedience to the Pope?

i don’t know. $6,000 is a lot. i don’t even know if they can afford a plane ticket to get to america.
Steve Merten:

Was not the Pope binding all people of the world to mortal sin murder for not using feeding tubes or just Americans?

no, the pope was not.
Steve Merten:

If the Pope does not do so, can it be said that he is doing all he can do to protect third world people who need feeding tubes from being murdered?

yes, it can be said.
Steve Merten:

I simply do not know how many eternal death bindings he can place on the flock before noone will enter into eternal life.

you are right.
Steve Merten:

If the Church is not going to strong arm Catholics into paying to keep those in need of feeding tubes from being murdered, can the Church then back off from strong arming those who wish not to have feeding tubes for themselves?

no, the Church cannot.
Steve Merten:

Is this requesting assissted suicide or is this people simply wanting to die a natural death without artificial means being forced upon them by the Church binding such a decision as mortal sin?

a DNR is neither of these.
Steve Merten:

Instead of focusing his attentions on what is mortal sin for Americans only, not third world nations, he should focus his attention on getting one billion Catholics to pick up the tab for third world nations so his demands for feeding tubes can be met by all in the world.

ah, ah, even though most of those one billion Catholics are in those third world nations, and they can’t afford their own feeding tubes, maybe they should pay for everyone’s feeding tubes. that’s gotta be a lot too. everyone needs a feeding tube.

ya know, you’re right. the pope is wrong. the Church is wrong. there is no salvation. there is no God. we *are *all going to burn in hell.

you feel better, now, bozo?

 

[Elizabeth_B]

Clarifying the standard for Christian behavior is not strong arming someone – it is the Church’s responsibility.

Whether or not it is a mortal sin (resulting in someone “burning in hell”) requires three to be met:

• Is the offense grievous? – Withholding basic care is
• Was the offense intentional – Being unable to provide basic care is not intentional
  *Did the person know it was grievously wrong? – God will determine this on a case-by-case basis

I believe it was Jeremiah who was told by God that he would be held accountable for the sins of the people if he failed to warn them about the nature of their sins. Our beloved Pope has taken this instruction to heart and is ensuring his flock understands.

 

[Ghosty]

I just want to point out that a DNR order is perfectly legitimate in the eyes of the Church. Artificial resusitation is the very definition of extraordinary medical means, and the Church does not bind people in terminal situations (again, if you need artificial resusitation, you are in a very terminal situation) to have extraordinary medical treatment.

As an emergency medical professional, it is my obligation to provide such treatment if there are no orders to the contrary; it’s called “implied consent”. That is an entirely different issue, however, and by law I am bound to not provide such treatment if DNR orders are present.

 

[Prometheum_x]

I fail to recall a time in the Gospel where Jesus demanded that all of his disciples do a particular action at a particular time or else burn in hell. And even where he did speak strongly about certain actions, he never strong armed people. . . He called them. And that is what our Pope has been doing: Proclaiming to us the universal call to holiness. Calling out to the world to live lives worthy of Christ, to be Christ’s disciples, fully devoted to him.

It is up to you whether you will heed the call. It is up to you whether you will obey the Gospel.

 

[Steven_Merten]

Prometheum_x:

I fail to recall a time in the Gospel where Jesus demanded that all of his disciples do a particular action at a particular time or else burn in hell. And even where he did speak strongly about certain actions, he never strong armed people. . . He called them. And that is what our Pope has been doing: Proclaiming to us the universal call to holiness. Calling out to the world to live lives worthy of Christ, to be Christ’s disciples, fully devoted to him.

It is up to you whether you will heed the call. It is up to you whether you will obey the Gospel.

NAB MAT 25:41

Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ He will answer them, 'Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Peace in Christ,

Steven Merten

www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com

 

[theTaxCollector]

Steven Merten:

I have heard that on average one billion Catholics pay less than one percent of their income to God. God commands ten percent. The Pope is in control of a vast amount of uncollected Catholic tithe money that belongs to God but is being held in individual Catholics bank accounts, big homes and SUVs. The Pope could use some fires of hell perswation, (ananthema or binding Catholics to mortal sin) up against Catholics to force them to come out with God’s full tithe in order to pay for third world nations feeding tube nursing home care. If the Pope does not do so, can it be said that he is doing all he can do to protect third world people who need feeding tubes from being murdered?

This week’s issue of the National Catholic Register has an interview with Mary Ann Glendon, who is president of the Pontifical Academy of Social Sciences. She had this to say:

“…And I might add that the Holy See is in a unique position to make these points [related to the Bejing world conference on women’s issues in 1995] because of the more than 300,000 Catholic educational, health-care, and relief agencies that serve mainly the poorest people in the world…”

Which other organization in the world can say they have 300,000 agencies of any type? Where do you think all the money for these efforts come from?

 

[Steven_Merten]

Hello Tax Collector,

Can you give us an idea of how much the average American donates from what you see on tax returns? Better yet what Christians give?

When ever I think of 350 million American US spending for foreign aid and national welfare, healthcare to the poor and other charities it is in the trillions. Would you say that One billion Catholics do three times American Spending for charity, two times, equal, half, one tenth? Where do one billion Catholics stand up next to the American tax payer when it comes to charity to the poor?

Mind you the Church does not have fire departments, roads, parks, military, space programs, wars, police, to pay for. I have heard that the average tax payer pays 15-20 percent of his income to do all that he does. Where does the Church spend ten percent of believers income? They only have church buildings, clergy and then the rest of Catholic donations to God go to the poor. Where do one billion Catholics stand up next to American tax payer generosity to the poor? And yet American tax payers are not promised eternal life for charity to the poor, Catholics are.

When Pope John Paul II wanted third world debt forgiven, he did not go to one billion Catholics to pay the bill. He went to the World Bank. Does the World Bank go to heaven if they pay off third world debt? Pope John Paul II did not demand that Catholics do any of it. I have never heard the Pope demand that Catholics pay for all the Charity he demands to be done, he always seem to point his finger at the world. Why? Because the American tax payer gets the poor of the world taken care of in a way the Pope can only dream the Church of one billion Catholics would.

Does anyone have any numbers to crunch on how much money one billion Catholics give to the poor. I have heard comments from tax preparers that you would be horrified as to how little people give to charity outside of state forced tax which a portion goes to charity. When I see $5000.00 collected at weekly Mass this equals a wopping $250,000 in a year. Many people make more than this. Yet, according to Jesus, peoples souls hinge on what they give in charity to God. Are Catholics titheing? Is eternal life and obedience to Jesus to care for the poor not worth at least a tithe to God?

I heard the number that Catholics average less than one percent of their income to God and I believe it. What are the numbers or best guess you have mr tax collector.

Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Steven Merten:

Many Americans just want to die a natural death when health leads them this direction. They do not want to spend decades in nursing homes with tubes coming out of their noses in a vegitative state. Please Holy Father, respect their decisions to only live as long as God allows them to do so, as it has been for mileniums, without man’s artificial intervention. Why bind them to hell for the mortal sin of suicide because they do not want feeding tubes.

P.S. Was this Papal statement not in the news?

Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com

Death due to starvation or dehydration is not “allowing nature to take its course,” it’s deliberately hastening the course that nature might or might not take.

 

[Steven_Merten]

JKirkLVNV:

Death due to starvation or dehydration is not “allowing nature to take its course,” it’s deliberately hastening the course that nature might or might not take.

So unless the Pope gets simple tube feeding kits in place, in all third world nations, natural death cannot occur in these places for those with self eating complications. Is this what you are saying?

Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com

 

[Ghosty]

Steve Merton: There’s no such thing as “simple feeding tube kits”, so let’s not get facetious. What **JKirkLVNV **is saying is that allowing such a death when one has the means to do otherwise is not “allowing nature to take its course”. This counts for both the people who allow it to happen to others through neglect, AND those who wish it done on themselves. Such a death IS suicide (or murder), regardless of what the Pope says.

By your logic, not feeding an infant when they are newborn is simply “allowing nature to take its course”. We accept by simple reason that feeding another is a basic and standard action, one that every single human requires at some point in their lives, regardless of their health or mental state. Since humans, by virtue of our very nature, require outside assistance in feeding at some point no matter what, there are simply no grounds for saying that outside assistance in feeding is extraordinary. If it weren’t ordinary, there wouldn’t be anyone alive to even discuss the issue.

Why do we feed infants? Because they can’t feed themselves. There is not a single exception to this rule in human history. It is an ordinary practice. It is literally natural. The Church allows us to not breathe for another person in certain circumstances. Why? Because such treatment goes beyond ordinary care required for basic survival of the species.

Terri Shiavo is perhaps no different from an infant, mentally speaking. She can’t laugh at your jokes, but neither can a newborn. She can’t tell you how she’s feeling, but neither can a newborn. She can’t sing, and dance, and perhaps she can’t even smile in response to pleasurful stimuli (I believe she can, but let’s just say this for the sake of argument), but neither can a newborn. Did you know that newborns don’t react “properly”, or consistantly, to stimuli for days, and sometimes weeks, after birth? We accept that this is a normal condition for every human being to exist in, and we refuse to deny them care despite this state of being. Terri Shiavo deserves no less. The Pope is simply asking us to not treat her as less than a newborn.

I believe you are sincerely trying to be compassionate with your argument, but consider this: if Terri is so damaged that she can’t truly “touch” the world around her, then she’s no different than an infant and deserves our care. If she is not so damaged, and she’s “trapped”, then starving her is absolutely inhumane because she will suffer greatly by dying in such a way, and be aware of it the entire time. No matter how you stack it, starvation is not a mercy killing.

 

[jman507]

1Co 6:19 “Do you not know that your body is a sanctuary of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God? You are not your own”

Mat 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

To starve/dehydrate yourself to death is just as bad for a person as if he did it to another person. It would be wrong if the pope stated it so or not. If you follow out that whole line of thinking, the Church should never say what actually is a sin and no one would sin. Wrong. If I had a disease and it was not dignosed would I not have a disease? Wrong. Everyone would still be living in sin, it is charity to point out what is a sin, so everyone can see it and change, much like when one figures out what disease one has one can know how to go about finding a remedy.

If you did wish that and it did happen, but you did not know that it was against Church teaching, then God might have mercy, but that would not change that you died with that sin on you. The attitude not to take is trying to keep yourself in ingnorance but to know inorder to be holy as the Lord is holy.

Now, if you do not have the ability to give yourself food or water that is a different matter. It is also a hard thing for the Church to say what one should do, because there are a lot of good things one should do. Infact there are more things one should do than can do. One should spend money to care for people far away, but also those close by. Also it is a good thing not too put so much emphsis on giving of money, though it does deserve it’s just due. The problem with too much focus on money, is that true compassion is not given away in dollars, but is given away from person to person.

The problem of with the feeding tube is not that the evil is in keeping oneself from death one does not have to do every means necassary inorder to live if there are decent reasons, the evil is keeping oneself from ordinary care of food and water when available inorder to bring death on. Nobody could live without food and water.

Sounds a bit too nuanced? Well maybe it is, but the problem is is that evil does not show itself as evil, most times it is masked as the good but there is just a slight deviation, just a slight rejection from what is really good. I guess the point where the issue is going to be is what is ‘ordinary care’ and what is ‘extraordiniary care’? Right now in most cases in the US that is where ordinary care has included a feeding tube according to the Church.

 

[4_marks]

Steven Merten:

I have heard that on average one billion Catholics pay less than one percent of their income to God. God commands ten percent. The Pope is in control of a vast amount of uncollected Catholic tithe money that belongs to God but is being held in individual Catholics bank accounts, big homes and SUVs. The Pope could use some fires of hell perswation, (ananthema or binding Catholics to mortal sin) up against Catholics to force them to come out with God’s full tithe in order to pay for third world nations feeding tube nursing home care. If the Pope does not do so, can it be said that he is doing all he can do to protect third world people who need feeding tubes from being murdered?

Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com

You are wrong. God does not command “ten percent.” That interpretation is a Protestant interpretation of certain passages from the Old Testament taken out of context, viewed through the eyes of the false doctrine of “sola scriptura,” and applied directly to modern times. Catholics are not “prosperity theology” proponents, nor do we adopt evangelical fundamentalist and Calvinist notions of exegesis. We are to give as we are able, from the heart. Systematic giving is a nice discipline, but so aren’t fasting for days on bread and water and praying a Rosary regularly for the salvation of souls. None is mandated as an absolute requirement for Catholics.

It is not the Pope’s responsibility in 2005 to provide finances for any nation state other than Vatican City and the Catholic Churches throughout the world. If the world wants to submit to his divinely vested authority as Supreme Pontiff, and re-establish a pre-Reformation style Church-State relationship, maybe then it would be. Does anybody seriously want this in today’s world? Considering the abuses of the past, I certainly don’t.

In reality, all Christians should put all of their possessions in one big pot, and each Christian should take only as much as he or she needs. Is this realistic on a large scale? Not in this present world. It is far too corrupt for reformation. Only when it is finally destroyed, all the wicked (those who die in a state of unrepented mortal sin) judged and sent to hell with the devil and his angels…and everything in it “burned up” will peace and harmony be realized. Relax.

 

[Prometheum_x]

You missed my point:

Jesus does not say that I as an individual am supposed to visit every sick, imprisoned, or homeless person on the earth. He makes a general statement, comparing those who do this sort of thing with those who do not. Its general nature is indicated by the fact that his description leaves no room for degrees, even though it is clear that one can visit the sick to a lesser or greater degree. One person might give money to the poor once a week and another person might give money 7 times a week. Jesus does not lay out a formula for determining the proper amount and time we are supposed to give to the needy in the world. Instead, he issues a call for us to love God with everything that we have and to love our neighbor as ourselves. He then tells us what that means.

Jesus also told some who wanted to follow him to sell everything they had and give it all to the poor. Why on earth are you wasting time writing on these forums when you could sell your computer, your car, and your house and give the proceeds to the poor and then live among the poor? Isn’t that what you are supposed to do 24/7?

NAB MAT 25:41

Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ He will answer them, 'Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Peace in Christ,

Steven Merten

www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com

 

[kmktexas]

You are wrong. God does not command “ten percent.” That interpretation is a Protestant interpretation of certain passages from the Old Testament taken out of context, viewed through the eyes of the false doctrine of “sola scriptura,” and applied directly to modern times. Catholics are not “prosperity theology” proponents, nor do we adopt evangelical fundamentalist and Calvinist notions of exegesis. We are to give as we are able, from the heart. Systematic giving is a nice discipline, but so aren’t fasting for days on bread and water and praying a Rosary regularly for the salvation of souls. None is mandated as an absolute requirement for Catholics.

4Marks, you are absolutely correct.

The “mandate” for Catholics is the Fifth precept of the Church:

1. To contribute to the support of the Church. Oddly, for most people, this has almost always been taken to mean ‘financial support.’ In reality, it demands support for every area of the Church’s mission, the least important of which (in order of importance, if not of time) is how much is dropped into the collection basket. To strengthen and to support the Church, by which one means one’s own parish community, one’s own pastors, bishops and the Holy Father.

(the quote is from CIN)

We support every area of the Churches mission to the extent that we can. In some parishes, money is less of a need than time. Giving of your time in ministry helps to fulfill your “mandate” under the fifth precept. In the US, where there are so many organizations devoted to charitable work, the Church has always held that we should contribute not just to Catholic causes but to other causes that further any of the Church’s missions. So this includes giving to organizations that help the sick, feed the hungry, etc. even if the organizations themselves are not Catholic.

SM,

One of the Church’s important teachings is the principle of subsidiarity. Nothing should be done by a larger organization that could be done as well by a smaller or simpler organization. To take the approach you are suggesting, where all Catholics are ordered to give 10% off the top to the Vatican for distribution would be directly opposed to the Church’s own teachings regarding subsidiarity.

The real problem with using a 10% number is that it could encourage less giving. Most American Catholics (who are not already living in poverty themselves) probably give more than 10% already. You stated yourself that world-wide, Catholics give about 1% directly in giving to their collections. If you assume that most Catholics (and non-Catholics, for that matter) give another 1% (pretty conservative) to other “charities” that leaves 8%. Most non-poor Americans pay about 25-30% in taxes. That other 8% is almost assuredly sucked up with social programs which further the Church’s mission of helping the poor in terms of housing, medical care, foreign aid, disaster relief etc. Remember, we are to further the Church’s mission, not just the programs done in the name of the Catholic Church.

I am not saying that Catholics already are giving too much or even enough. They aren’t and many people could and should give more, much more. What I am saying is that using an arbitrary 10% number won’t get you anywhere.

 

[yochumjy]

Steven Merten:

When was the last time you heard Pope John Paul II demand that CATHOLICS pay for some of this health care for the poor, or BURN IN HELL. He dosent harrass Catholics because that would reduce his worldly glory in thier eyes. Instead he binds up all this expense on American and world tax payers. Is it the world who goes to heaven for caring for the poor or the Church?

My, my, you certainly assume a lot. How do you manage to contradict yourself in such a way as to make sense to yourself? Let’s see, the pope doesn’t harass Catholics, because he is too busy harassing the whole world, as if Catholics aren’t part of the world? There are no Catholics in America? And just answer me ONE question.

HOW DOES THE POPE BIND AMERICAN AND WORLD TAX PAYERS? Remember, there is NO strong arming. I told you he was giving us guidelines. Moral guidelines are for Catholics and Non-Catholics. There are many of us that do give 10%, some more, many less. Also remember that the Old Testament gave the 10% number. The new testament gave us the beatitudes. Tell me one other thing Mr. I Love God. Do you tithe? Does your religious leaders force you to tithe to give to the poor, the sick etc? All Christians who look to the bible are bound by Christ to do this, NOT the Pope. Get it straight please.
Steven Merten:

I am not saying that the Pope should or should not make non-use of feeding tubes mortal sin for Catholics. I would like to see him first and formost tell one billion Catholics they are fully responsible to help their third world nation people with feeding tubes, health care and food, or BURN IN HELL. All I hear is the Pope demanding what the world’s laws should be and who the World Bank should feed. He should be demanding Catholics do the work of the Lord.

Where does the Pope specifically say that Catholics shouldn’t be doing this? Where does he talk about the World Bank? Where is he not talking to Catholics? You have a vivid immagination.
Steven Merten:

There would be nothing more Christlike than the Pope strong arm CATHOLICS to pay a respectable sum of donations to the poor. I simply only hear the Pope direct his demands on American tax payers and sidestepping his own responsibility to shepard one billion Catholics do as Christ commanded them in caring for the poor or BURN IN HELL. Instead of focusing his attentions on what is mortal sin for Americans only, not third world nations, he should focus his attention on getting one billion Catholics to pick up the tab for third world nations so his demands for feeding tubes can be met by all in the world.

Christ never strong-armed anyone into paying money or doing moral things. He chastized those in the temple, he forced them out, but he didn’t force them into acting of their own accord. God does not string us along like a puppet. The Pope does not either.

I wonder, Steve, will you even try to address ONE point I have made, or will you just keep typing this disingenuous stuff?

John

 

[Steven_Merten]

Ghosty:

By your logic, not feeding an infant when they are newborn is simply “allowing nature to take its course”.

I believe that if an infant fell in the swimming pool and you did not pull the child out and give the child CPR this would be murder. Yet you just told us in an above post that the Church does not concider failure to give CPR is murder, suicide, euthenasia or any thing evil. Is the Church being evil for not demanding that any time one does not give CPR, when CPR is needed, they commit murder?

The reason the Church has not stated that failure give CPR a mortal sin is because in some cases elderly, the infirmed, those in vegetative states, should have the right to write a living will requesting no CPR so they can simply die a peaceful natural death.

It is ok for the Church to say that not giving CPR to a baby is murder while allowing others the right to choose not to be given the simple saving act of CPR in old age? Of course it is.

Why could not the Church do the same with feeding tubes as they do for CPR. Why bind all people to mortal sin spiritual death for requesting no feeding tubes if they are old or in a vegitative state? If the Church is simply trying to save one woman, or babies or those in thier youth, then state it so rather than a blanket statement.

Should third world nations build roads, schools and infastructure or should they spend $5000.00 per month on nursing care by incerting feeding tubes into those people in vegatative states? Well maybe, like CPR, the Church could let the people use some common sence instead of binding them to eternal death murder for not using feeding tubes.

Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com

 

[vern_humphrey]

Steven Merten:

It is ok for the Church to say that not giving CPR to a baby is murder while allowing others the right to choose not to be given the simple saving act of CPR in old age? Of course it is.

When and where did the Church say this?

 

[Elizabeth_B]

Steven Merten:

I believe that if an infant fell in the swimming pool and you did not pull the child out and give the child CPR this would be murder. Yet you just told us in an above post that the Church does not concider failure to give CPR is murder, suicide, euthenasia or any thing evil. Is the Church being evil for not demanding that any time one does not give CPR, when CPR is needed, they commit murder?

The reason the Church has not stated that failure give CPR a mortal sin is because in some cases elderly, the infirmed, those in vegetative states, should have the right to write a living will requesting no CPR so they can simply die a peaceful natural death.

It is ok for the Church to say that not giving CPR to a baby is murder while allowing others the right to choose not to be given the simple saving act of CPR in old age? Of course it is.

Why could not the Church do the same with feeding tubes as they do for CPR. Why bind all people to mortal sin spiritual death for requesting no feeding tubes if they are old or in a vegitative state? If the Church is simply trying to save one woman, or babies or those in thier youth, then state it so rather than a blanket statement.

Should third world nations build roads, schools and infastructure or should they spend $5000.00 per month on nursing care by incerting feeding tubes into those people in vegatative states? Well maybe, like CPR, the Church could let the people use some common sence instead of binding them to eternal death murder for not using feeding tubes.

Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com

“Avoid foolish and ignorant debates, for you know that they breed quarrels.” 2 Tim 2:23