Can this dispute be solved with a clear, explicit quote?

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dlerhetal

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I am relatively new to this discussion, but I am looking for a clear, explicit instance of our Lord quoting any Disputed/Apocryphal/Deuterocanonical books. The following have been offered to me, and clearly are not adequate:

a) Matt. 12:42 - Wisdom of Solomon
b) Matt. 16:18 - Wisdom 16:13
c) Matt. 24:15 - 1 Macc. 1:54 & 2 Macc. 8:17
d) Matt. 24:16 - 1 Macc. 2:28
e) Mark 4:5,16-17 - Sirach 40:15
f) Mark 9:48 - Judith 16:17

The above referenced instances are not valid for the following reasons:

a) Matt. 12:42 clearly references I Kings10:1-13.

b) Matt. 16:18 says, “And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.” Wisdom 16:13 says “For you have dominion over life and death; you lead down to the gates of the nether world, and lead back.” Matthew 16:18 is the pivotal text where our Lord establishes (decrees? announces?) the New Testament Church while Wisdom 16:13 ascribes to the Lord the power over life and death. The two verses are not parallel in setting or meaning, and the concept of hell having gates can hardly be considered unique.

c) Matt. 24:15 clearly references Daniel 9:27; 11:31; 12:11

d) Matt. 24:16 - “Head for the Hills” during times of peril is hardly a unique suggestion, and is found in Gen. 19:17, Ps 11:1, Song of Solomon 4:6, and from my great-grandmother every time a Democrat was ever elected to office.

e) Mark 4:5,16-17 The two verses are not parallel in setting or meaning. Jesus told a parable about 4 types of soil: wayside, stony, thorny, and good. Sirach 40:15 concludes, “The offshoot of violence will not flourish, for the root of the godless is on sheer rock.” It is hard to believe that such a vague reference made in an agricultural economy to soil could be considered unique. The soil in Mark is rocky, but the image in Sirach is of “sheer” rock. This is not a quote or even a vague allusion.

f) Mark 9:48 clearly refers to Isaiah 66:24.

For examples of clear, explicit quotations from the Old Testament, please see Matthew 4:4-10. It isn’t that I demand quotations must be the only way to solve this dispute, but it would certainly be helpful.
 
Jesus did not quote from the Books of Esther or Obadiah, either.

Would you deny that these are canonical?

Why so, either way?
 
bpbasilphx said:
Jesus did not quote from the Books of Esther or Obadiah, either.

Would you deny that these are canonical?

Why so, either way?
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Exactly. The authority of the DC books is based upon the same basis of the authority of the 66 books accepted by Protestants - namely they were determined to be part of the Cannon by the Church (councils in the first 400 years of Church history). The DC books formed apart of the Bible until well after the reformation (even included in the King James version) and were stricken only after the reformation - not added by the Catholic Church at that time.

In addition, the DC books were quoted from extensively by the early Church fathers (in the first several hundred years of Church histroy) not merely as historical references, but supporting doctrines of faith - further indication of their acceptance as cannon.

In terms of Jewish tradition, they were included in the Septuagent (the Bible most likely read by Jesus and his apostles during their lifetimes), although not, apparently, in the Palestinian Bible of that time. That being said, the books are treasured by Jews to this day and macabees includes the only scriptural reference in the Old Testament to the events forming the basis for the Jewish holiday of Chanukkah.

Blessings,

Brian
 
So, then, would you say the answer to my question is “No”?
 
dlerhetal said:
I am relatively new to this discussion, but I am looking for a clear, explicit instance of our Lord quoting any Disputed/Apocryphal/Deuterocanonical books. The following have been offered to me, and clearly are not adequate:

a) Matt. 12:42 - Wisdom of Solomon
b) Matt. 16:18 - Wisdom 16:13
c) Matt. 24:15 - 1 Macc. 1:54 & 2 Macc. 8:17
d) Matt. 24:16 - 1 Macc. 2:28
e) Mark 4:5,16-17 - Sirach 40:15
f) Mark 9:48 - Judith 16:17

The above referenced instances are not valid for the following reasons:

a) Matt. 12:42 clearly references I Kings10:1-13.

b) Matt. 16:18 says, “And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.” Wisdom 16:13 says “For you have dominion over life and death; you lead down to the gates of the nether world, and lead back.” Matthew 16:18 is the pivotal text where our Lord establishes (decrees? announces?) the New Testament Church while Wisdom 16:13 ascribes to the Lord the power over life and death. The two verses are not parallel in setting or meaning, and the concept of hell having gates can hardly be considered unique.

c) Matt. 24:15 clearly references Daniel 9:27; 11:31; 12:11

d) Matt. 24:16 - “Head for the Hills” during times of peril is hardly a unique suggestion, and is found in Gen. 19:17, Ps 11:1, Song of Solomon 4:6, and from my great-grandmother every time a Democrat was ever elected to office.

e) Mark 4:5,16-17 The two verses are not parallel in setting or meaning. Jesus told a parable about 4 types of soil: wayside, stony, thorny, and good. Sirach 40:15 concludes, “The offshoot of violence will not flourish, for the root of the godless is on sheer rock.” It is hard to believe that such a vague reference made in an agricultural economy to soil could be considered unique. The soil in Mark is rocky, but the image in Sirach is of “sheer” rock. This is not a quote or even a vague allusion.

f) Mark 9:48 clearly refers to Isaiah 66:24.

For examples of clear, explicit quotations from the Old Testament, please see Matthew 4:4-10. It isn’t that I demand quotations must be the only way to solve this dispute, but it would certainly be helpful.
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Read 5 Myths about 7 Books by Mark Shea. I hope that this answers your questions.

God bless,
ZP
 
Out of interest why does it matter wether Jesus quoted the Deuterocanon or not?

The NT doesn’t quote for exaple Zephaniah and Nahum etc yet the Book of Enoch and the Assumption of Moses are used.

scripturecatholic.com/deuterocanon.html

By the way, while not direct, I found these parallels interesting, from my Rosary book.

My Soul magnifies the Lord and my spirit rejoices in God my Saviour

For she is the brightness of eternal light, and the unspotted mirror of God’s majesty, and the image of his goodness.(Wisdom 7:26)

For behold from henceforth all generations will call me blessed

And when she was come out to him, they all blessed her with one voice, saying: Thou art the glory of Jerusalem, thou art the joy of Israel, thou art the honour of our people (Judith 15:10)
 
dlerhetal said:
So, then, would you say the answer to my question is “No”?
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No, I would say "your question needs to be rephrased to something like ‘Did Jesus quote every book in the Old Testament?’ "

The answer to that question (including both protocanonical and deuterocanonical books) is “no.”

To insist on phrasing the question as you originally did (by limiting it to the deuterocanonicals) might indicate that you are asking the question in a leading way to perhaps show that, if he didn’t quote from the deuterocanonicals (to your satisfaction, anyway), that would make that part of the canon illegitimate in some way. However, by not asking the same question about the protocanonicals, one might suspect you are trying to avoid a similar – and more uncomfortable – (for you) conclusion about them.

The important fact, however, is that Jesus quoting or not quoting a certain book (be it protocanonical OR deuterocanonical) has no bearing at all on whether it is canonical.

But then again, I would never accuse anyone of posing such an agenda driven question. 😉
 
I realize that this is not an overly genteel discussion format, and I do embrace the lively banter of online forums; however, I do want to make it clear that, while I obviously have an agenda in all my personal interactions because I am human being and not a robot, my question was “Can this dispute be solved with a clear, explicit quote?”

The proof that it was my question is that it is in the actual title of my original posting. In fact, if you will read my words for what they are, you will find that I’m actually researching a particular topic, and the first question in my search is: “Can this dispute be solved with a clear, explicit quote?”

Regardless of the fact that we all have to be on our guards in this sort of an environment, it is really important that we actually pay attention to the actual context of the actual words being used. Not everyone is looking for a fight. Some of us have actual questions, such as “Can this dispute be solved with a clear, explicit quote?”

I clearly contributed to the confusion by asking for “clear, explicit” examples, but in all fairness, the references I had been given were quite lame. My purpose for this question is not to rub it in anyone’s face if the answer is clearly no. I actually want to first determine if that is the case. A number of references have been proposed. I do not agree that they are in fact quotes. I in fact maintain that the particular references given me were in fact quite lame attempts at claiming to be quotes. Before moving on to my second question, which is possibly more important than my first, I really want to exhaust this first, very simple question.

Keep in mind, this first question is not actually, “Did Jesus quote the Deuterocanonical books?” I am trying to find clear, explicit quotes, and I am beginning with the recorded words of Christ. This is important to me because it is regularly maintained that the disputed literature is never quoted in the Protocanonicals. Admittedly, whether a source is or is not quoted does not mean that it is or is not Scripture. (As has been pointed out more than once in this particular thread.) The Apostle Paul apparently quotes pagan authors in Acts 17:28 and 26:14, I Corinthians 15:33, and Titus 1:12. (broken clock twice a day yada yada yada) If, however, it can be determined that the common assertion that there are no such references is actually false, that would really be a big deal to me for obvious reasons.

If in fact it can be determined that it is generally accepted on both sides of the debate that there are no clear, explicit quotes to settle this dispute, I can proceed to my next question.
 
Jesus and Sadducees discuss (Tobit 3:8 and 7:11) In (Mat 22:23-33)

For she had been married to seven husbands, but the wicked demon Asmodeus killed them off before they could have intercourse with her, as it is prescribed for wives. So the maid said to her: "You are the one who strangles your husbands! Look at you! You have already been married seven times, but you have had no joy with any one of your husbands. (Tobit 3:8)

Now there were seven brothers among us. The first married and died and, having no descendants, left his wife to his brother.
The same happened with the second and the third, through all seven. Finally the woman died. (Mat 22:25-27)
 
You should also note that apostles quote from Deuterocanon, and they are under Holy Spirit. The same One which comes from Jesus Christ.
 
Sinke and Ryanoneil have demonstrated why I posed the question that I did exactly the way that I did. They have vindicated my use of the words clear and explicit.

#1. The story of a jealous, serial-killer demon who is repelled by fish guts to run away to the desert where he is defeated by an undercover angel is never referred to by Christ. My goal is not to make light of the story but to point out that the fact that just because unbelievers tried to trip our Lord with a difficult question about a strange story containing details that were strikingly similar to the one found in Tobit is nothing like the explicit references found in Matthew 4. (BTW, you may have noticed that Sarah did not, in fact, have 7 husbands. She had 8. If the hecklers were actually referring to this particular story, they were indeed sad, you see, for they couldn’t do simple math.)

#2. Where did the Apostles clearly, explicitly reference the Deuterocanonical works? If in fact it can be proven they did, then perhaps this dispute can be solved with a clear, explicit quote; however, until this assertion can be examined, it is no better than a lie. It is no truer than the claim that the disputed works are nowhere ever given any credence whatsoever by any New Testament author at any time. Whether the hypothesis is proven true or false, I will still be satisfied. I will not; however, be satisfied with more unfounded statements.
 
Matt. 6:19-20 - Jesus’ statement about laying up for yourselves treasure in heaven follows Sirach 29:11 - lay up your treasure.

Matt… 7:12 - Jesus’ golden rule “do unto others” is the converse of Tobit 4:15 - what you hate, do not do to others.

Matt. 7:16,20 - Jesus’ statement “you will know them by their fruits” follows Sirach 27:6 - the fruit discloses the cultivation.

Matt. 9:36 - the people were “like sheep without a shepherd” is same as Judith 11:19 - sheep without a shepherd.

Matt. 11:25 - Jesus’ description “Lord of heaven and earth” is the same as Tobit 7:18 - Lord of heaven and earth.

Matt. 12:42 - Jesus refers to the wisdom of Solomon which was recorded and made part of the deuterocanonical books.

Matt. 16:18 - Jesus’ reference to the “power of death” and “gates of Hades” references Wisdom 16:13.

Mark 4:5,16-17 - Jesus’ description of seeds falling on rocky ground and having no root follows Sirach 40:15.

Luke 21:24 - Jesus’ usage of “fall by the edge of the sword” follows Sirach 28:18.

John 6:35-59 - Jesus’ Eucharistic discourse is foreshadowed in Sirach 24:21.

John 5:18 - Jesus claiming that God is His Father follows Wisdom 2:16.
 
dlerhetal said:
Sinke and Ryanoneil have demonstrated why I posed the question that I did exactly the way that I did. They have vindicated my use of the words clear and explicit.

#1. The story of a jealous, serial-killer demon who is repelled by fish guts to run away to the desert where he is defeated by an undercover angel is never referred to by Christ. My goal is not to make light of the story but to point out that the fact that just because unbelievers tried to trip our Lord with a difficult question about a strange story containing details that were strikingly similar to the one found in Tobit is nothing like the explicit references found in Matthew 4. (BTW, you may have noticed that Sarah did not, in fact, have 7 husbands. She had 8. If the hecklers were actually referring to this particular story, they were indeed sad, you see, for they couldn’t do simple math.)
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I don’t blame you for using the words clear and explicit. It is nice when things are clear cut.

It is pretty clear that they are talking about Scripture though, and not just some strange story.

Jesus said to them in reply, "You are misled because you do not know the scriptures or the power of God. (Mat 22:29)

If not Tobit, what Scripture do you think they were refering to?
 
dlerhetal said:
…I am looking for a clear, explicit instance of our Lord quoting any Disputed/Apocryphal/Deuterocanonical books.
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If our Lord had explicitly quoted from them, how could they be disputed? One of the reasons the books are disputed by some late Christians is precisely because our Lord did not explicitly quote them. However, as others have pointed out, one should not jump to any conclusions regarding their inspiration because our Lord did not explicitly quote from them since there are undisputed books that our Lord also does not quote from. As a test for inspiration, it gives false negatives.
 
ryanoneil,

i have not found a passage in Tobit that provides the answer to the saducees’ question. the answer is found in verses 30-32.

30At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. 31But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you, 32’I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’[a]? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."

this is to me clear example of your being trapped in a vicious circle. perhaps try lying on your side while reading this to get a different perspective:

the nonbelievers asked a ridiculous question, and they were rebuked because they didn’t understand the nature of our future resurrection. they were asking whose wife she would be in Heaven, and the rebuke was that they didn’t understand what Scripture had to say about that. she wouldn’t be a wife at all. she would be “like the angels in heaven.” the fact that they asked about 7 husbands instead of 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 or 6 or (the correct number) 8, is not even necessarily due to the referenced passage.

Genesis 4:15 But the LORD said to him, “Not so ; if anyone kills Cain, he will suffer vengeance seven times over.” Then the LORD put a mark on Cain so that no one who found him would kill him.

Genesis 33:3 He himself went on ahead and bowed down to the ground seven times as he approached his brother.

skip the next 34 references to the number 7 until you come to Matthew 18:21 Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?”

do you see what i see? the number 7 comes up a lot, even when people are asking hypothetical questions. it does not necessarily have to come from the disputed text. it would be a much more convincing argument if they had chosen the number 8. unless they were asking about a circumcision, it would not seem likely that they would pick that number out of the sky. unlike the number 7, which seems to be synonymous with “alot”. (not alot like a million, but alot like more than just a couple.) oh, and it would be a much more convincing argument if by chance they chose the number 8 since THAT’S THE CORRECT NUMBER! blind as they were to the deity of our Lord, i really do find it hard to believe these guys were so insanely stupid they couldn’t even count. sarah had 7 dead husbands plus tobiah. THEN she died.

i’m eager to hear your explanation of the Matthew account, including where the Lord’s answer was somehow related to the Tobit account.
 
thistle,

thank you for providing me exactly 8 more reference to study. i am eager to read them and hope to find something to further my understand of this topic.

my feelings are hurt. you did not read my original posting. i feel like a child who comes running up to his dad with a broken arm and his dad pats him on the head and gives him an apple and says “now run along and play nice.”

“oh” you say “but i did read your posting. i even gave you references”

“ah” i say “then you must have had your eyes closed.”

I explained why I feel like the following 4 passages are not only NOT references, but that it is somewhat insulting to people’s intelligence to try to pass them off as such. then it looks like you just copied and pasted from somewhere a list of verses and dropped them off for me with a pat on the head.

Matt. 11:25
Matt. 12:42
Matt. 16:18
Mark 4:5,16-17

thank you for the salt in my open wound.
 
Thank you, Sinke. You came through for me.

Hebrews 11:35 looks like as good a passage as I’m going to get.

It is certainly not an explicit quote, but does refer to something that, although surely happened many times throughout the history of God’s people, can not be found explicitly recorded anywhere outside of 2 Maccabees 7.

The fact that the author also references someone being cut in half 2 verses later tells us he was pulling from a number of various sources, most of them probably known to the readers of that time but lost to us.

Unless someone responds soon with a startling new piece of information, I will be forced to agree with Todd Easton and proceed to my second question.
 
dlerhetal,
Have you seen the Scripture Catholic website?

I believe thistle’s references came from here, but there are many more you may want to check out if you haven’t already.

(Hopefully, that’s not just more salt for you.)
 
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