Can time have no beginning but still be created?

[Vico]

Please elaborate … I have heard that they have a begging — does this mean that angels are still being created today, or have all the angels been fully created?

Incorporeal creatures are indeed challenging for this real to measure and understand which gives us a glimpse into other realms to which we do not operate daily in: a source of a place without time, yes?

There is a dogma of the faith that from the beginning of time God created spiritual and mundane beings.

Denzinger 428 - LATERAN COUNCIL IV 1215, Chapter 1 (Definition directed against the Albigensians and other heretics]Firmly we believe and we confess simply that the true God is one alone, eternal, immense, and unchangeable, incomprehensible, omnipotent and ineffable, Father and Son and Holy Spirit: indeed three Persons but one essence, substance, or nature entirely simple. The Father from no one, the Son from the Father only, and the Holy Spirit equally from both; without beginning, always, and without end; the Father generating, the Son being born, and the Holy Spirit proceeding; consubstantial and coequal and omnipotent and coeternal; one beginning of all, creator of all visible and invisible things, of the spiritual and of the corporal; who by His own omnipotent power at once from the beginning of time created each creature from nothing, spiritual, and corporal, namely, angelic and mundane, and finally the human, constituted as it were, alike of the spirit and the body. For the devil and other demons were created by God good in nature, but they themselves through themselves have become wicked. But man sinned at the suggestion of the devil. This Holy Trinity according to common essence undivided, and according to personal properties distinct, granted the doctrine of salvation to the human race, first through Moses and the holy prophets and his other servants according to the most methodical disposition of the time.
Denzinger 1783 - THE VATICAN COUNCIL 1869-1870, Session III[The act of creation in itself, and in opposition to modern errors, and the effect of creation]. This sole true God by His goodness and “omnipotent power,” not to increase His own beatitude, and not to add to, but to manifest His perfection by the blessings which He bestows on creatures, with most free volition, “immediately from the beginning of time fashioned each creature out of nothing, spiritual and corporeal, namely angelic and mundane; and then the human creation, common as it were, composed of both spirit and body” [Lateran Council IV, see n. 428; can. 2 and 5]

 

[ynotzap]

Since the universe is composed of things, and since time is a property of change of things, then to suppose an infinitely old universe supposes an infinitely old chain of events among created things. In other words, God’s creative act would not be an initiation of events, but rather an eternal commencement of all events at once.

Note that in a universe with a beginning, God’s created act would be both, but with an infinitely old universe it can only be the second.

So, conceptually, it’s possible, but it isn’t the universe we actually inhabit. We know this because of the present moment. The present moment is occurring, therefore the universe is not infinitely old. Here’s the proof:

If the universe were actually infinitely old, there would be an actually infinite set of moments prior to the present moment. But, since an actually infinite set of moments can never be transversed in finite temporal succession, the present moment, such as it is, would actually never be arrived at. Thus, since we have arrived at the present moment, the past cannot be actually infinite.

I have a different approach to the question, although we arrive to the same place. The only way we could have an infinitely old universe is that God would have to create it first, then He could sustain it infinitely. Infinity could never be a condition or property of created entities (the universe) To create is to give non-being, being, in this case, the universe, to give the universe existence and to sustain it in existence, since the universe is not subsistent. When created, the universe has as an essential part of it’s nature the condition or quality of Potency and Act, and this passage from Potency to Act is considered time, motion, change, and God is the unmoved mover. He is the uncause cause of the series of events. So any appearance of infinity associated with creation is accidental, not a substantial part of creation. As I see it, conceptually, it is subjective thinking with no objective backing in reality, so it remains in the realm of imagination. Infinity belongs to God alone. Also note that we can not arrive at the present moment, because the present moment is not static, but always changing as we arrive, the old saying applies “time stands still for no one”

 

[MrSnaith]

I have a different approach to the question, although we arrive to the same place. The only way we could have an infinitely old universe is that God would have to create it first, then He could sustain it infinitely. Infinity could never be a condition or property of created entities (the universe) To create is to give non-being, being, in this case, the universe, to give the universe existence and to sustain it in existence, since the universe is not subsistent. When created, the universe has as an essential part of it’s nature the condition or quality of Potency and Act, and this passage from Potency to Act is considered time, motion, change, and God is the unmoved mover. He is the uncause cause of the series of events. So any appearance of infinity associated with creation is accidental, not a substantial part of creation. As I see it, conceptually, it is subjective thinking with no objective backing in reality, so it remains in the realm of imagination. Infinity belongs to God alone. Also note that we can not arrive at the present moment, because the present moment is not static, but always changing as we arrive, the old saying applies “time stands still for no one”

I was right with you up until the last sentence.

I get what you’re saying, and you’re right that we never arrive at the present moment, because we are always in the present moment. But the present moment is a state of change. The past is fixed, determined and unvarying. The future is flux, undetermined and constantly varying. The present moment is the transition out of a state of flux, indeterminacy, and variation, into a state of fixity, determinacy, and unvariation. Put another way, the past is actualized, the future is potency, and the present is the transition between potency and act, or the actualization of potency.

But, we, as we are, are not undetermined, nor are we unvarying. We are forever in the present, that everlasting transition from potential to actual.

And of course, what this means is that if the universe was created at all, then at one point, outside of God, all that was, was pure potency, and God is pure act. Creation is an act of beginning, and beginning is the initial movement from potency to act. It is logically incoherent to suggest God could create a universe that never actually began.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . It is logically incoherent to suggest God could create a universe that never actually began.

I can imagine a reality like celestial music forever playing, no true beginning and no end. Eternally existing Now - going to and coming from nowhere but the present Moment. This universe in which we participate may be one grand symphony, itself having a beginning and end.

 

[tafan]

I find this thread fascinating, because I have been reading Frank Sheed’s classic “Theology and Sanity” and he actually addresses the question in the title of this thread. These concepts are definitely difficult to grasp, and Sheed.

The problem on this thread from several people are that they seem to be confusing the concept of infinity and eternity. Certainly we would all admit that time could go infinitely on into the future. So could it have gone on to the past infinitely and still be created. As Sneed asks in his book:

"Was there indeed a First moment?
…
There are Catholic philosophers, though they are in the minority, who hold that reason alone cannot settle the question.
…
The question whether the universe had a beginning in time, a first moment, does not touch the question whether the universe has a creator. It is not because the universe once was not and now is that we argue that God must have brought it into being. It is because, whether the universe had a beginning or not, it does not contain within itself the reason for its own existence.
…
We have already seen that endlessness in time does not constitute eternity.
"

 

[tafan]

There is a dogma of the faith that from the beginning of time God created spiritual and mundane beings.

You are correct, but that comes from revelation. So the answer to the OP’s title question is “no”, but that does not mean it could not have been the other way.

 

[MrSnaith]

I can imagine a reality like celestial music forever playing, no true beginning and no end. Eternally existing Now - going to and coming from nowhere but the present Moment. This universe in which we participate may be one grand symphony, itself having a beginning and end.

I wonder if you really can. I know I cannot. Sure, I could put the concept together, and imagine I’m imagining it, but the truth is I’m not really imagining a beginningless song, for once I begin to imagine it I must admit that all I’m really imagining is some small bit of an assumed beginningless (and endless) song.

 

[Vico]

You are correct, but that comes from revelation. So the answer to the OP’s title question is “no”, but that does not mean it could not have been the other way.

It goes against the definition of time if there is no beginning to time, for time is from creation. Creation is the action or process of bringing something into existence, and time is the indefinite continued progress of existence and events.

 

[MrSnaith]

It goes against the definition of time if there is no beginning to time, for time is from creation. Creation is the action or process of bringing something into existence, and time is the indefinite continued progress of existence and events.

I think a nice, tidy definition of time is that it is the sequence of actualizations.

The language used in the OT when it says God created the heavens and the earth is language that implies creatio ex nihilo (creation out of nothing), as opposed to creatio ex materia (creation out of pre-existing matter).

If this were not the case, then we would be free to suggest a creatio ex materia, and likewise an infinitely old universe. But we’re not free to suggest that due to the language of the OT as creatio ex nihilo, which has to imply a beginning, a first actualization in the sequence of all actualizations.

 

[Giggly_Giraffe]

There is a dogma of the faith that from the beginning of time God created spiritual and mundane beings.

Denzinger 428 - LATERAN COUNCIL IV 1215, Chapter 1 (Definition directed against the Albigensians and other heretics]Firmly we believe and we confess simply that the true God is one alone, eternal, immense, and unchangeable, incomprehensible, omnipotent and ineffable, Father and Son and Holy Spirit: indeed three Persons but one essence, substance, or nature entirely simple. The Father from no one, the Son from the Father only, and the Holy Spirit equally from both; without beginning, always, and without end; the Father generating, the Son being born, and the Holy Spirit proceeding; consubstantial and coequal and omnipotent and coeternal; one beginning of all, creator of all visible and invisible things, of the spiritual and of the corporal; who by His own omnipotent power at once from the beginning of time created each creature from nothing, spiritual, and corporal, namely, angelic and mundane, and finally the human, constituted as it were, alike of the spirit and the body. For the devil and other demons were created by God good in nature, but they themselves through themselves have become wicked. But man sinned at the suggestion of the devil. This Holy Trinity according to common essence undivided, and according to personal properties distinct, granted the doctrine of salvation to the human race, first through Moses and the holy prophets and his other servants according to the most methodical disposition of the time.
Denzinger 1783 - THE VATICAN COUNCIL 1869-1870, Session III[The act of creation in itself, and in opposition to modern errors, and the effect of creation]. This sole true God by His goodness and “omnipotent power,” not to increase His own beatitude, and not to add to, but to manifest His perfection by the blessings which He bestows on creatures, with most free volition, “immediately from the beginning of time fashioned each creature out of nothing, spiritual and corporeal, namely angelic and mundane; and then the human creation, common as it were, composed of both spirit and body” [Lateran Council IV, see n. 428; can. 2 and 5]

“immediately from the beginning of time fashioned each creature out of nothing, spiritual and corporeal, namely angelic and mundane; and then the human creation, common as it were, composed of both spirit and body” Lateran Council IV, see n. 428; can. 2 and 5"

This still leaves my inquiry’s about the creation of angels; have they all been created or are angels continually being created too? Are they also eternal after their creation?

 

[Giggly_Giraffe]

I find this thread fascinating, because I have been reading Frank Sheed’s classic “Theology and Sanity” and he actually addresses the question in the title of this thread. These concepts are definitely difficult to grasp, and Sheed.

The problem on this thread from several people are that they seem to be confusing the concept of infinity and eternity. Certainly we would all admit that time could go infinitely on into the future. So could it have gone on to the past infinitely and still be created. As Sneed asks in his book:

"Was there indeed a First moment?
…
There are Catholic philosophers, though they are in the minority, who hold that reason alone cannot settle the question.
…
The question whether the universe had a beginning in time, a first moment, does not touch the question whether the universe has a creator. It is not because the universe once was not and now is that we argue that God must have brought it into being. It is because, whether the universe had a beginning or not, it does not contain within itself the reason for its own existence.
…
We have already seen that endlessness in time does not constitute eternity.
"

Okay, I took the bait and did a search on infinite vs eternal. This matches your author, so I’ll post it and think about it a while before I make my hypothesis on how this fits to the question at hand.

Join Date: February 2, 2005
Posts: 2,020
Religion: Catholic
Re: What is the difference between eternity and infinity?
I think of infinity as being outside of space and eternity as being outside of time. Explaining this can get kind of deep, but here goes:

Infinity means without limit, and theologically speaking, infinity means without limit not only externally but internally as well. We tend to think only of the external sense, of spreading out in all direction and you never reach a point where you say “this far and no farther”, such as the infinite universe. But there is also the internal sense of not having not having parts or divisions. Let me explain by quoting Frank Sheed*:
“Scientists may argue whether there is any boundary of the material universe, whether one can conceive a point in any direction beyond which the material universe does not extend. This is a pleasant argument, but it has no bearing on the question whether the material universe is infinite. It may extend in all directions without ever coming to an outer boundary, but it has the myriad boundaries within itself which arise from its being composed of parts. It is incurably finite. God on the other hand is infinite. There are no parts in Him at all. He is wholly Himself in one inclusive act of being. Because He lacks the limitation of having parts, He is free from the consequent limitation of occupying space. Space cannot contain Him. He transcends space, and the things of space, and indeed all created things.”

Eternity - let me quote from Frank Sheed*:
“Eternity is not time, however much we may try to glorify the concept of time. The philosophic definition of eternity is in two Latin words, tota simul, which may be roughtly translated as “all at once”. God’s eternity means that He possesses the totality of what He is, not in successive acts as we do, but in one single act. Just as time is the duration of that which changes, eternity is the duration of that which simply is, the duration of the Being who, in one infinite act of being which does not change and does not cease, is all that He is, and all that He does.”

*Theology and Sanity by Frank Sheed

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=540992

 

[Vico]

"immediately from the beginning of time fashioned each creature out of nothing, spiritual and corporeal, namely angelic and mundane; and then the human creation, common as it were, composed of both spirit and body

" [Lateran Council IV, see n. 428; can. 2 and 5"

This still leaves my inquiry’s about the creation of angels; have they all been created or are angels continually being created too? Are they also eternal after their creation?
[/quote]

Angels are spiritual beings and do not die. Hell was created for the fallen angels – Matt. 25:41 Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels.
This everlasting fire is a punishment of Hell. There is eternal separation from God:Catechism of the Catholic Church
1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."617 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.
Fourth Lateran Council (1215 A.D.) teaching states that God created angels before the creation of man:… one principle of all things, creator of all things invisible and visible, spiritual and corporeal; who by his almighty power at the beginning of time created from nothing both spiritual and corporeal creatures, that is to say angelic and earthly, and then created human beings composed as it were of both spirit and body in common. The devil and other demons were created by God naturally good, but they became evil by their own doing. Man, however, sinned at the prompting of the devil.

 

[ynotzap]

I was right with you up until the last sentence.

I get what you’re saying, and you’re right that we never arrive at the present moment, because we are always in the present moment. But the present moment is a state of change. The past is fixed, determined and unvarying. The future is flux, undetermined and constantly varying. The present moment is the transition out of a state of flux, indeterminacy, and variation, into a state of fixity, determinacy, and unvariation. Put another way, the past is actualized, the future is potency, and the present is the transition between potency and act, or the actualization of potency.

We never arrive at the present moment because we are and so is the universe always changing, not in it’s nature but in it’s capacities.(Potency) We can only attribute the present moment to God, as all things are present to Him. I think this an error in our thinking. We do not change in our nature,but we do change in it’s capacities, physically and spiritually. We are created with the condition, or characteristics of Potency and Act meaning that we are created with a real capacity to become to becoming. When we are created we do not possess the fullness of being,the fullness of our capacities but our lives are progressions towards that fullness, which will never be attained as we can not possess the fullness of being,(in a static state) it will take an eternity to experience total being which constitutes our end, the partaking in the life of God who is the Fullness of Being. We are like God in spirit. When the body can no longer support the activity of the soul, the physical capacity of the body is exhausted because of corruption, the soul will continue existing. It is supplied with existence, spiritual knowledge, and truth and all that is God, never possessing God, but being possessed by Him according to our capacities.

MrSnaith:

But, we, as we are, are not undetermined, nor are we unvarying. We are forever in the
present, that everlasting transition from potential to actual.

Yes we are determined in our nature when created, and we do vary in our capacities, (Potencies). and yes we are forever in God’s presence, but not ours because it is constantly changing, our nature never changes and Potency and Act are part of our nature So we concurrently are changing while God is constantly present. In God we have our being, but we are not part of God.

MrSnaith:

And of course, what this means is that if the universe was created at all, then at one point, outside of God, all that was, was pure potency, and God is pure act. Creation is an act of beginning, and beginning is the initial movement from potency to act. It is logically incoherent to suggest God could create a universe that never actually began.

The universe was created by God, and not outside God, there is not outside, and there is no Potency in God, and God is Pure Act, Total Pure Being. Beginning is not the movement from Potency to Act, But from Pure Act to created potency and act, to a capacity to become to becoming,to a nature that contains these qualities, or properties.

 

[tafan]

"immediately from the beginning of time fashioned each creature out of nothing, spiritual and corporeal, namely angelic and mundane; and then the human creation, common as it were, composed of both spirit and body

" [Lateran Council IV, see n. 428; can. 2 and 5"

This still leaves my inquiry’s about the creation of angels; have they all been created or are angels continually being created too? Are they also eternal after their creation?
[/QUOTE]

Angels to not exist in time, nor do they exist in eternity. They exist in the aevum.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aevum

 

[ynotzap]

Yes we are determined in our nature when created, and we do vary in our capacities, (Potencies). and yes we are forever in God’s presence, but not ours because it is constantly changing, our nature never changes and Potency and Act are part of our nature So we concurrently are changing while God is constantly present. In God we have our being, but we are not part of God.

I correct my statement, I misunderstood MrSnaith and I agree with his statement that we
are forever in the present (state of our nature) that everlasting transition from potency to act,( because it is an intrinsic part of our nature)

 

[ynotzap]

Angels have a beginning, they do not have existence for their nature as God does. They are not Pure Act either so they necessarily have Potency and Act as a condition of their nature (change) but there is a difference with angels and men. Angels are more like God because they are pure created spirits. They are not hampered by corporeal limitations as humans are. Angels are infused with knowledge directly from God. Humans have to acquire knowledge by reasoning. Once an angel makes a choice by it’s will, it’s choice is immutable, unchanging, it doesn’t act out of ignorance as humans do. It is not immutable in it’s nature, if it where it wouldn’t make a choice in the first place, for choice involves change. God alone is immutable in His Nature. Once an angel commits himself to God, he will always remain committed, Satan can never change his will either, his choice is immutable, that’s in the nature of an angel.

My fallibility is showing:blush:Angels are unchangeable (immutable) in their nature, but they can make a choice right or wrong,(mutable) but when they do they are stuck eternally with that choice. They become immutable in their wills God alone is immutable in His will, He is not subject to choice God sustain the nature of an angel, or the nature of anything, not because it is immutable in itself, but because of God’s action. As I see it.

 

[MrSnaith]

I correct my statement, I misunderstood MrSnaith and I agree with his statement that we
are forever in the present (state of our nature) that everlasting transition from potency to act,( because it is an intrinsic part of our nature)

 

[Richca]

I don’t know much philosophy, but for the more well learned Catholics here in philosophy and metaphysics, is there anything that says there must be a beginning to time for God to have created the universe? Sort of whether God could create a universe that Aquina’s final cause argument doesn’t apply.

I mean, is it possible there was at one point, no creation, and then God creates the universe, but is it possible that when God created the universe that he made the universe such that it has an infinite past ? An example there was no number line, and then a person makes a number line that goes infinitely to both the past and future. So can God create a universe from where there was no beginning in time in that universe? (And on the point of no universe vs. after the creation of the universe, I am not insinuating that the universe and God is within a larger universe with time since God is outside of time, this is just beyond our comprehension, but with limitations of language I say it this way).
And in no way am I saying that the universe is ultimately infinitely existing, but that when God created the universe, he created in such a way that it had a past that stretches to infinity (so there was a point when there was no “universe” but only from God’s point of view). In such a universe, there would be no first mover from within the perspective of the universe (of course from God’s perspective He was the first mover). But in such a world, then Aquina’s first mover argument would not work.

Can God create such a world?

St Thomas Aquinas says that it is possible that God could have created the world from eternity, for God himself is eternal; and since God’s will is eternal, he could have willed to create from all eternity if He had so willed it. However, if God had so willed the world to be eternal, this would not negate the necessity that God is the first mover or first cause of the world. For supposing that creation is eternal, God is the eternal first mover and eternal first cause of creation. St Thomas taught that it cannot be philosophically demonstrated either way whether the world is eternal or not eternal. We take it as a matter of divine revelation that the world had a beginning in time and that it is not eternal.

Secondly, if the world were eternal, it would not be the same eternity as God is. God is eternity itself, with no beginning, no end, no change, no movement, and no cause. The world’s eternity would be caused by God and it would depend on Him for its existence or non-existence, it is subject to change and movement and time which means that creation does not have its entire existence all at once unlike God. Boethius defined eternity as “the simultaneous-whole and perfect possession of interminable life.” God has his infinite and eternal existence all at once which excludes any change, movement, or time in Him.

 

[Mount_Carmel]

My take is that time is not eternal, but that the Creator/Maker of time, is. That eternity and eternal are qualities and domains of God, and God alone. Angels, humanity, etc. had beginnings, and the likes of Angels and Humans, once created/made have been endowed with a continuing eternal aspect of existence.

In effect only God was, is and always will be - much as the Catechism states.

Time as a quality and reality is dimensionally different to eternity/infinity. Time is an expression of the macro and micro movements and changes in that which is physical and temporal in nature.

 

[tafan]

Secondly, if the world were eternal, it would not be the same eternity as God is. God is eternity itself, with no beginning, no end, no change, no movement, and no cause. The world’s eternity would be caused by God and it would depend on Him for its existence or non-existence, it is subject to change and movement and time which means that creation does not have its entire existence all at once unlike God. Boethius defined eternity as “the simultaneous-whole and perfect possession of interminable life.” God has his infinite and eternal existence all at once which excludes any change, movement, or time in Him.

This is the main point, an infinity in time is not the same as eternity.