Can we be over zealous in protecting tradition?

[Sirach2]

JReducation:

Originally Posted by Sirach2

forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
If you can accept some wisdom from an underling, Brother

So where is the underling?

:curtsey: This seemed out of character for ME to be giving YOU advice. But since you had asked us … … I hope it was helpful.

 

[edwest2]

The Vatican has told us to use social mediums to evangelize. The Bible also tells us that we are to encourage one another. There are at least three different kinds of posters here.

1. Those who show love and compassion to others and give them good advice.
2. Those who hate the Church and what it teaches and try to convince us the Church is wrong or to mind our own business.
3. Those with various issues: emotional, spiritual, loneliness, boredom, that want a connection to something.

We cannot afford to tire from doing good daily. If we are to be the salt of the earth then we need to repeat, as many times as necessary, what the the Church tells us is true.

Opinions don’t matter. The Truth does. Tradition exists but there are those who seek to use it to divide.

Peace,
Ed

 

[Cat]

The Vatican has told us to use social mediums to evangelize. The Bible also tells us that we are to encourage one another. There are at least three different kinds of posters here.

1. Those who show love and compassion to others and give them good advice.
2. Those who hate the Church and what it teaches and try to convince us the Church is wrong or to mind our own business.
3. Those with various issues: emotional, spiritual, loneliness, boredom, that want a connection to something.

We cannot afford to tire from doing good daily. If we are to be the salt of the earth then we need to repeat, as many times as necessary, what the the Church tells us is true.

Opinions don’t matter. The Truth does. Tradition exists but there are those who seek to use it to divide.

Peace,
Ed

This is a good post, and a good summary of the type of people that come here. I put myself in the 3rd group. I would add one more group, and that’s the “seekers” who come here to learn specifically about Catholicism. These can be either Catholics or non-Catholics, and they have a lot of questions. Yes, they can go to a priest in real-life, but a priest is generally not available 24 hours a day. CAF is!

I somewhat disagree with the statement “Opinions don’t matter. The Truth does.” Yes, that’s true, but it is often in expressing our opinions and listening to the opinions of other people, especially when we disagree with those opinions!–that we eventually arrive at a place where we understand and accept the Truth.

It’s a process. Let’s say that someone asks a group (either in person or anonymously in an online forum) a question about a child-rearing practice. They immediately receive various reactions from the group. If the majority of those reactions are “shock and horror”, then the person asking the question quickly gets the idea that maybe they should re-examine their practice and perhaps adjust it or stop doing it altogether.

If the majority of the reactions are “nods and smiles,” then the person asking the question feels affirmed in their practice.

And then there are all the other opinions about the degree of the practice and variations of the practice, and all of these are extremely helpful to not only the initial questioner, but to everyone else who is seeking the Truth about childrearing practices.

I get the feeling that some people in online forums would prefer to have a topic presented by the OP, and then the answer given by one or two people, and then the thread is closed because the answer is given. (That’s what the “Ask the Apologist” section is like.)

Well, OK, but is that how real-life conversations work? I hope not! I can’t imagine a family gathering, or a dinner party, where someone asks, “Hey, should Catholics read the Bible?” and someone says, “Yes,” and that’s the end of the discussion. Yes, it’s the Truth, but the method of arriving at the Truth is not much fun for anyone, and it doesn’t really convince anyone of “why” the Truth is that Catholics should read the Bible.

What I like to see is a conversation in which the “discussion process” is allowed to continue as the various opinions and pieces of evidence are presented and examined, and ends only when the conversants have enough information to arrive at a conclusion.

Sometimes this means that the conversation will meander and go off-topic into side-topics that seem to have nothing to do with the original question–and yet, these side-topics often give people a deeper understanding of original topic. IMO, there is nothing wrong with this, and it’s helpful, and should be allowed to continue unless there is a time-crunch as there often is in real-life settings. But there is no time crunch online.

And sometimes, there are people involved with the discussion who cross a “propriety line” and say something so shocking that almost everyone in the group is offended or upset. In a real-life situation, the group would collectively tell the offender to “Cut it out or leave.” It’s difficult to handle the same situation online, because ideally, the offender should be told “Cut it out or leave,” but still allowed to remain in the discussion as long as they tone things down. Sometimes, the most extreme conversants are the ones who are essential in helping the group to arrive at a consensus.

Anyway, as I said, I think that opinions ARE a good pathway to help people arrive at the Truth.

 

[Marie5890]

I thank you for sharing your brother’s wise insight. Im going to make an effort to remember it.

I know why I originally came here to CAF. It was to look for information and clarification on things that confused me. I was seeking to be educated.

It was also to lend support and clarity to those who seek to understand Mormons and the prism they have in viewing God and life’s purpose.

I found myself getting caught up into the craziness after awhile, and I have tried to correct that. But I do have to be mindful of what I am doing, saying, and why.

Before I tell the anecdote, you have to know the context. Traditionalist Franciscans do not use the Internet unless you’re a superior or you need it as tool. For the most part, those friars never see forums, blogs, or other forms of communication on the internet.

Today, I was reviewing some things on here and one of the brothers came in and asked me what I was up to. You know, the kind of greeting that we often give to another person. “What ya’ doing?”

I said, “You want to see? Come and look.”

Actually I was in Cath News, I wanted to know if the press had guessed correctly who the new Secretary of State at Vatican City would be. As I navigated from one thread to another, Brother was reading along quietly. I showed him a few other forums: TC, L & S, Scripture and I believe it was NC Religions.

He got up to leave and then turned and looked at me with a rather quizzical look on his face. He said something that made me think. Here is what he asked?

“Father, why do these folks care about all of these things? Most of this has nothing to do with our daily lives.”

I asked him to give me an example.

He pointed out to something that someone had posted on the Holy Father’s visit with the Jordanian king and queen. He said, “I could care less if the pope genuflected to them. I don’t live with the pope. These things are interesting, as is any other article in the society column, but they have nothing to do with my life. It would not be something that I would concern myself with. Besides, I’m not the pope’s guardian.”

I went about my business. Of course, CAF is one of my apostolic assignments. So what people post is my business. I started to read threads with Brother’s question in mind. As I did I though to myself, "Brother B is right. There are so many concerns here that have nothing to do with the lives of these folks. The answers will not make them holier husbands, mothers, fathers, sons, daughters or members of the Church. Their life of prayer, penance and charity does not ride on the answer to some of these questions, such as who should wear a biretta or what happens if the priest goes to the supermarket in his jeans instead of his collar. If I took my cue from the next guy, I would be in trouble. God does not make us to be like the next guy. He makes us to be the persons we are and to try to succeed in our given roles in life.

Maybe, we do pay too much attention to things that are not going to change our lives in any way and at the end of the day, we end up getting upset because things are not perfect or because someone was mean to us or simply because no one will hear what we have to say. Are we really doing something good for our souls by taking on concerns that have nothing to do with who we are and what God has called us to do?

That’s not protecting tradition. That’s just giving ourselves an ulcer. To be over zealous is not a good thing. In fact, it can be detrimental to our spiritual life, because it takes away interior silence and peace.

 

[QuestingKnight]

If clergy want the laity to follow the rules then they should be scrupulous about following them, themselves. A religion is a set of rules.

People are watching and taking note.

If the men see an officer being casual about the rules they will a) Become lax themselves and b) Think him a hypocrite when he tries to enforce them.

 

[fhansen]

Before I tell the anecdote, you have to know the context. Traditionalist Franciscans do not use the Internet unless you’re a superior or you need it as tool. For the most part, those friars never see forums, blogs, or other forms of communication on the internet.

Today, I was reviewing some things on here and one of the brothers came in and asked me what I was up to. You know, the kind of greeting that we often give to another person. “What ya’ doing?”

I said, “You want to see? Come and look.”

Actually I was in Cath News, I wanted to know if the press had guessed correctly who the new Secretary of State at Vatican City would be. As I navigated from one thread to another, Brother was reading along quietly. I showed him a few other forums: TC, L & S, Scripture and I believe it was NC Religions.

He got up to leave and then turned and looked at me with a rather quizzical look on his face. He said something that made me think. Here is what he asked?

“Father, why do these folks care about all of these things? Most of this has nothing to do with our daily lives.”

I asked him to give me an example.

He pointed out to something that someone had posted on the Holy Father’s visit with the Jordanian king and queen. He said, “I could care less if the pope genuflected to them. I don’t live with the pope. These things are interesting, as is any other article in the society column, but they have nothing to do with my life. It would not be something that I would concern myself with. Besides, I’m not the pope’s guardian.”

I went about my business. Of course, CAF is one of my apostolic assignments. So what people post is my business. I started to read threads with Brother’s question in mind. As I did I though to myself, "Brother B is right. There are so many concerns here that have nothing to do with the lives of these folks. The answers will not make them holier husbands, mothers, fathers, sons, daughters or members of the Church. Their life of prayer, penance and charity does not ride on the answer to some of these questions, such as who should wear a biretta or what happens if the priest goes to the supermarket in his jeans instead of his collar. If I took my cue from the next guy, I would be in trouble. God does not make us to be like the next guy. He makes us to be the persons we are and to try to succeed in our given roles in life.

Maybe, we do pay too much attention to things that are not going to change our lives in any way and at the end of the day, we end up getting upset because things are not perfect or because someone was mean to us or simply because no one will hear what we have to say. Are we really doing something good for our souls by taking on concerns that have nothing to do with who we are and what God has called us to do?

That’s not protecting tradition. That’s just giving ourselves an ulcer. To be over zealous is not a good thing. In fact, it can be detrimental to our spiritual life, because it takes away interior silence and peace.

IMO legalism-with all it’s external appurtenances- has a way of rearing it’s ugly head quite easily in human affairs, especially religion, in which it attempts to insinuate itself as being the true mark or expression of holiness.

 

[JustaServant]

If clergy want the laity to follow the rules then they should be scrupulous about following them, themselves. A religion is a set of rules.

People are watching and taking note.

If the men see an officer being casual about the rules they will a) Become lax themselves and b) Think him a hypocrite when he tries to enforce them.

Religion is FAR more than a set of rules.

 

[JReducation]

If clergy want the laity to follow the rules then they should be scrupulous about following them, themselves. A religion is a set of rules.

People are watching and taking note.

If the men see an officer being casual about the rules they will a) Become lax themselves and b) Think him a hypocrite when he tries to enforce them.

Did you know that the word hierarchy came from the Eastern Fathers. It means the Church ruled by the Heiros (priests). They first used it in their discussion on St. Paul’s admonition to do as I say not as I do.

Did you know that the term religion comes from the Latin expression re ligare, to re commit. It is not about rules, but about commitment. The clergy cannot make commitments for your, even if they were all saints. Only you can commit to your salvation and only you can commit to respond to God’s call to you.

Regardless of what the clergy does or does not do, your commitment is solely your responsibility and you cannot appear before God and say that you did not do your part, because the clergy did not do its part.

I’ve always taught my novices and seminarians that if you want to make God laugh in your face, try to tell him that you failed, because someone else failed.

The role of the clergy, among other things, is to govern, not to serve as an excuse for your weaknesses.

 

[edwest2]

If clergy want the laity to follow the rules then they should be scrupulous about following them, themselves. A religion is a set of rules.

People are watching and taking note.

If the men see an officer being casual about the rules they will a) Become lax themselves and b) Think him a hypocrite when he tries to enforce them.

That’s true. We need to avoid or encourage or be indifferent to open scandal, or error. We should politely point it out when we see it.

Peace,
Ed

 

[edwest2]

Religion is FAR more than a set of rules.

On what is the Old and New Testaments based? Man had broken one rule and was cast out of the Garden, meaning all of us carry a tendency to sin. If we did not see and hear how God, by speaking through numerous prophets, and the Word made Flesh, showing and telling us in person, what to do, where would we be? Turning away from the Commandments has led to the mostly pagan society that surrounds us. Once a man or group rejects the Truth for a lie, we get distortions and even embrace sin. If God’s word is denied, eventually, God Himself is denied. If Tradition is denied, we get the ‘gross distortions’ among some Catholics.

Peace,
Ed

 

[TimothyH]

“Father, why do these folks care about all of these things? Most of this has nothing to do with our daily lives.”

Jean-Pierre De Caussade is smiling down on Brother B.

Brother Jay, if you think it appropriate, please let Brother B know that he has reminded one unimportant father of two young girls in Nowheresville, Georgia, about how ordinary life and the present moment are underrated.

*You lack strength of character: what insistence on having a hand in everything! You are bent on being the salt of every dish. And — you won’t be annoyed if I speak clearly — you have little aptitude for being salt: in particular, you lack its capacity to dissolve and pass unnoticed.

• St. Josemaria Escriva*

My Church has a relic of St. Josemaria Escriva. I think I’ll go venerate it tonight.

-Tim-

 

[JReducation]

On what is the Old and New Testaments based? Man had broken one rule and was cast out of the Garden, meaning all of us carry a tendency to sin. If we did not see and hear how God, by speaking through numerous prophets, and the Word made Flesh, showing and telling us in person, what to do, where would we be? Turning away from the Commandments has led to the mostly pagan society that surrounds us. Once a man or group rejects the Truth for a lie, we get distortions and even embrace sin. If God’s word is denied, eventually, God Himself is denied. If Tradition is denied, we get the ‘gross distortions’ among some Catholics.

Peace,
Ed

I strongly recommend that you read the Eastern Fathers’ commentaries on the OT and NT. They deny this hypothesis completely. They pose that the OT is a foreshadowing of the NT. The NT is about the perfection of charity. Laws were means not an end. The end of religion is charity, not adherence to laws. This is why St. Paul argues against the law. Because some people of his time had made the law as the definition of religion.

From the Fathers of the East, you should then move West to St. Anthony of Padua’s commentaries on the scriptures. St. Anthony points out that the fulfillment of the Gospel in Christian life is not about laws. We comply with laws, because of justice. We comply with justice, because human dignity demands it of us. Human dignity demands it of us, because God elevated human dignity when he became Incarnate out of pure love. Our sole motivation then should be love, not law. Law is a path, not an end.

No one made this more clear than St. Albert when he wrote the Rule of Carmel. It’s one page. But if you live according to the advice in that one page, you will be another John of the Cross or Teresa of Avila.

Speaking of Teresa of Avila, let us remember her sound advice. Beware of sour faced saints who go about preaching penance and repentance, but forget to teach love and gratitude.

Jean-Pierre De Caussade is smiling down on Brother B.

Brother Jay, if you think it appropriate, please let Brother B know that he has reminded one unimportant father of two young girls in Nowheresville, Georgia, about how ordinary life and the present moment are underrated.

You lack strength of character: what insistence on having a hand in everything! You are bent on being the salt of every dish. And — you won’t be annoyed if I speak clearly — you have little aptitude for being salt: in particular, you lack its capacity to dissolve and pass unnoticed.

• St. Josemaria Escriva

My Church has a relic of St. Josemaria Escriva. I think I’ll go venerate it tonight.

-Tim-

I will do that. He’s a great disciple of St. Jose Maria Escriva.

**There is nothing in the present that is less important than what’s happening over in Rome. If that were so important, God would have placed us all there and not here, for God wants nothing more than for us to be saved. He would not deprive us of the opportunity. **

That’s not from St. Josep Maria, that’s from Br. Jay to his spiritual sons.

 

[edwest2]

I have to disagree. Why do we go to Confession? Why did Jesus say, “If you love me keep my commandments?” When we transgress these commandments, we sin. That is why we need the sacrament.

This whole argument about Traditionalists is meaningless without appropriate action. If people want to whine and do nothing - that’s wrong, and divisive.

Peace,
Ed

 

[AndyP2010]

edwest2

But what commandments? Jesus also said that the greatest commandments where to love God with all your heart mind and strength and the 2nd to love your neighbor as your self. Those contain all of the law and to prophets. Or, as St Paul reminded the Corinthians:
1COR 13:1-3:

If I speak in human and angelic tongues* but do not have love, I am a resounding gong or a clashing cymbal.
And if I have the gift of prophecy and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing.
If I give away everything I own, and if I hand my body over so that I may boast but do not have love, I gain nothing.

 

[edwest2]

edwest2

But what commandments? Jesus also said that the greatest commandments where to love God with all your heart mind and strength and the 2nd to love your neighbor as your self. Those contain all of the law and to prophets. Or, as St Paul reminded the Corinthians:

Your reply is very important but when we examine our conscience before Confession, what are we looking for?

Broken any of the Ten Commandments?
How about the 7 deadly sins? (sloth, gluttony, etc.)?

And what did Jesus say to the official who asked, “Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” (Luke 18:18)? “You know the commandments, ‘You shall not commit adultery; you shall not kill; you shall not steal; you shall not bear false witness; honor your father and mother.’” Luke 18:20 NAB

I want to love everyone. God knows my faults and my weaknesses.

Peace,
Ed

 

[JustaServant]

I strongly recommend that you read the Eastern Fathers’ commentaries on the OT and NT. They deny this hypothesis completely. They pose that the OT is a foreshadowing of the NT. The NT is about the perfection of charity. Laws were means not an end. The end of religion is charity, not adherence to laws. This is why St. Paul argues against the law. Because some people of his time had made the law as the definition of religion.

Very important words.
The trap that the Pharisees fell into was Law without Love.
Otherwise Catholics fit into the charactiture fundamentalists paint us.

 

[QuestingKnight]

Did you know that the word hierarchy came from the Eastern Fathers. It means the Church ruled by the Heiros (priests). They first used it in their discussion on St. Paul’s admonition to do as I say not as I do.

Did you know that the term religion comes from the Latin expression re ligare, to re commit. It is not about rules, but about commitment. The clergy cannot make commitments for your, even if they were all saints. Only you can commit to your salvation and only you can commit to respond to God’s call to you.

Regardless of what the clergy does or does not do, your commitment is solely your responsibility and you cannot appear before God and say that you did not do your part, because the clergy did not do its part.

I’ve always taught my novices and seminarians that if you want to make God laugh in your face, try to tell him that you failed, because someone else failed.

The role of the clergy, among other things, is to govern, not to serve as an excuse for your weaknesses.

We are all accountable for our sins, that’s true. Clergy and religious, if they are teachers, are held to a higher standard by God. One teaches by how one appears as well as what one says.

12 Then the man said, “The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I ate.”

16 To the woman He said:

“I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception;
In pain you shall bring forth children;
Your desire shall be for your husband,
And he shall rule over you.”

Eve tempted Adam. God gave Eve more travail than Adam, even though they both did the same thing. They were both punished, but Eve was punished more.

In practical terms, a clergyman who preaches The Way and then fails in upholding it publicly will surely cause some of his flock to stumble; they will be scandalised. They will be accountable, certainly, but so will he, for occasioning their sin.

 

[AndyP2010]

Eve tempted Adam. God gave Eve more travail than Adam, even though they both did the same thing. They were both punished, but Eve was punished more.

Eve doesn’t exactly tempt Adam she gives him the fruit. Also read Genesis 6:3 carefully.

The woman saw that the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eyes, and the tree was desirable for gaining wisdom. So she took some of its fruit and ate it; and she also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.

Bold is mine.

Notice Adam is a witness to the exchange between the Serpent and Eve. Yet her protector doesn’t do anything to stop what is going on. He doesn’t try to drive the serpent away or call on the Lord for help.

Then in 3:17

To the man he said: Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, You shall not eat from it,
Cursed is the ground because of you!
In toil you shall eat its yield
all the days of your life

Notice the very ground is cursed because of Adams sin.

 

[Thalassophile]

What a wonderful and thought-provoking thread. It’s as if no-one ever lived a Godly life before the Internet and its googleplex of distractions.

In fact, I’d be quite surprised if the opposite weren’t true – that these distractions tend (I said “tend”) to lead us away from the moment-to-moment quotidian realities of our lives, rather than enriching them.

I already love this site and I registered about one hour ago!

That said, it’s time for me to go and eat dinner and pick my wife up from work – you know, live my actual life!

 

[TimothyH]

Your reply is very important but when we examine our conscience before Confession, what are we looking for?

Broken any of the Ten Commandments?
How about the 7 deadly sins? (sloth, gluttony, etc.)?

And what did Jesus say to the official who asked, “Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” (Luke 18:18)? “You know the commandments, ‘You shall not commit adultery; you shall not kill; you shall not steal; you shall not bear false witness; honor your father and mother.’” Luke 18:20 NAB

I want to love everyone. God knows my faults and my weaknesses.

Peace,
Ed

Steven West did a wonderful meditation on the sacrament of pennance. In it he reminds his audience that there are two types of sacraments - sacraments of healing and sacraments of initation, and that the sacrament of pennance is a sacrament of healing.

God wants to give us more than just forgiveness. Christ said, “In the beginning it was not so.” God wants us to go back to “the beginning”, to a time before sin entered the world. He wants to heal us of of our desire to sin, to make us whole again.

If all we are concerned with are the rules and obedience then we are missing a great gift. Jesus was a healer. The Holy Spirit is often called the Doctor of our souls." We all need forgiveness but forgiveness is only part of it. We are missing out if we don’t focus on healing, focus on moving away from the desire to sin.

I pray for healing. I actually say, “Father, I have examined myself and these are all the sins I am concious of, and I ask my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ for his pardon and for healing.”

-Tim-