Can we believe in infant damnation?

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Gregory_I

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Can we believe, as Catholics, in infant damnation? Is it still a valid theological opinion for those who take the second council of Lyons and Pope Gregory X seriously?
 
the answer there is we can’t be for certain. there’s two things here. one, Jesus said that the Kingdom of Heaven belongs to such as these (children). so how can the innocent not enter heaven. on the other hand, we also know that those who are not baptized cannot enter heaven.

so there’s really not a straight answer on this one. all we know that nothing is impossible with God.
 
Gregory_I said:
But if we are all born spiritually dead…
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Jesus did go to Limbo after his death on the cross and lead the righteous ones waiting there for Him into heaven. if Jesus was able to lead these unbaptized people into heaven, why can’t He do the same for the babies? if Jesus baptize them in Limbo, why can’t He baptized the innocents today and let them enter heaven?

like i said, nothing is impossible with God
 
I don’t think you can tell other people that they have to believe it, but I think you’re allowed to believe it. After all, for a while, Limbo was the loosest option for them.

My personal opinion is that the unbaptized babies of non-Christians are in Limbo. I don’t know what God will do with them at the final judgment.
 
My own (theological) view is that of an Augustinian position, where the unbaptised infant will receive the ‘mildest’ of punishments, basically exclusion from the beatific vision.

However, if I were asked by someone who was worried about the death of an unbaptised infant, I would say that we don’t know.
 
stuart12 said:
My own (theological) view is that of an Augustinian position, where the unbaptised infant will receive the ‘mildest’ of punishments, basically exclusion from the beatific vision.

However, if I were asked by someone who was worried about the death of an unbaptised infant, I would say that we don’t know.
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Exactly what I do. I tell people that God is all-loving and merciful in order that they are not offended, but personally, I hold that his justice means that non-Christian infants will not be punished for sins, but because of Adam’s sin they are still separated from the Beatific Vision.
 
I dono what happens to babies…but I can’t help but think Mother Mary holds them.
 
WetCatechumen said:
Exactly what I do. I tell people that God is all-loving and merciful in order that they are not offended, but personally, I hold that his justice means that non-Christian infants will not be punished for sins, but because of Adam’s sin they are still separated from the Beatific Vision.
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I don’t actually believe in the Beatific Vision.

It is not possible to see God, even in the afterlife. So from my perspective that would not be a punishment.
 
Hesychios said:
I don’t actually believe in the Beatific Vision.

It is not possible to see God, even in the afterlife. So from my perspective that would not be a punishment.
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Therefore the reward of eternal life would not be God, which is contrary to the Faith. If the reward is other than God, no soul could be eternally happy.
 
I hope you people never have to face the agony of losing a child and dealing with this first hand. My daughter Mary Elizabeth died two weeks short of her due date. The cord which kept her alive for 38 weeks in the end killed her. She was to be baptized on Dec. 12 and dedicated to Our Lady. This loss has been followed by two miscarriages.

This may be only be an interesting topic for you people but it’s heart breaking for others. All of my children would have been bapized and raised to know, love, and serve Him yet He allowed them to die. If it is true that these little ones are damned the Calvin must have been right.

M
 
There are three types of baptisim: water, blood, and desire. Water is the usual one for most, blood baptism for those who shed blood for the faith but had not been baptized, and desire for those who did not know Christ in this world, like pagans, but would have chosen Christ if they had been given the opportunity. I think the baptism of desire would cover unbaptized infants. Of course, anyone, including non-Christians, can baptize with water.
 
Honestly, we won’t know until we are dead, so I won’t say that I am right for sure, however my personal opinion is that they do go to heavean probably with nothing excluded.
 
I am not sure but I believe that baptism of desire, whether it be implicit or explicit, would only bring about the effect of the sacrament by the one who needs it desiring.

As a side note, one must remember that sentimentality must not obscure our reasoning.
 
Gregory_I said:
Can we believe, as Catholics, in infant damnation? Is it still a valid theological opinion for those who take the second council of Lyons and Pope Gregory X seriously?
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Honestly, I don’t know why you would want to believe that. It strikes me like an elitist “I hope they rot in …” mentality. Why not rather cultivate the theological virtue of hope and “entrust them to the mercy of God” (CCC 1261).
 
aicirt said:
There are three types of baptisim: water, blood, and desire. Water is the usual one for most, blood baptism for those who shed blood for the faith but had not been baptized, and desire for those who did not know Christ in this world, like pagans, but would have chosen Christ if they had been given the opportunity. I think the baptism of desire would cover unbaptized infants. Of course, anyone, including non-Christians, can baptize with water.
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i was going to mention baptism by desire but i thought, how is this going to cover non-Christians? if Buddhist parents decided to abort their baby, then there is no desire to baptize from the parents.
 
Gregory_I said:
Can we believe, as Catholics, in infant damnation? Is it still a valid theological opinion for those who take the second council of Lyons and Pope Gregory X seriously?
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It seems that one could but he would have to believe, as the council teaches, that they receive different punishments. St. Augustine, for example, believed they received a “mitigated flame” of physical punishment. I certainly don’t advocate such a position, and when one considers man’s natural and supernatural ends as separate ends, then there is no need to hold such a position. In fact, it doesn’t make sense to do so.
 
mlldrl said:
I hope you people never have to face the agony of losing a child and dealing with this first hand. My daughter Mary Elizabeth died two weeks short of her due date. The cord which kept her alive for 38 weeks in the end killed her. She was to be baptized on Dec. 12 and dedicated to Our Lady. This loss has been followed by two miscarriages.

This may be only be an interesting topic for you people but it’s heart breaking for others. All of my children would have been bapized and raised to know, love, and serve Him yet He allowed them to die. If it is true that these little ones are damned the Calvin must have been right.

M
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I offer my most sincere condolences for your loss. My personal opinion, which I believe to some degree is supported by church teaching, is that your children are effectively baptized because of your desire to have raised her in the Christian faith, and therefore they have obtained eternal rest with God, the Theotokos, and all the angels and saints.

I was only stating that I did not feel hopeful about the unbaptized children of non-Christians.
 
I pose this question:

If the souls of aborted babies are not damned, then why does the Devil support abortion?
 
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