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JackQ
Guest
But, of course, Calvin wasn’t right, and God is not unjust. Ask Mary Elizabeth to pray for me.
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nsper7
Guest
If unbaptized babies are condemned to Hell, how is God any different than a Hitler who threw Jewish babies simply because they were of Jewish blood? If one below the age of reason is condemned for Original Sin, doesn’t that violate free will?
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zielwolf
Guest
These kinds of “theological” questions are cruel and arbitrary, as is the concept of Limbo.
Romans 10:6-7 says clearly:
““Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) or 'Who will descend into the deep?”"
Why do we mortals think we have so much right to judge and mull over who gets to go to heaven and who doesn’t?
In light of the above and that Jesus said that it would be better if a millstone were put around the neck and a man to be drowned than that one of the little ones be caused to sin, and that we must be like children to receive the kingdom of heaven, and that we should NOT hinder the little ones to come to Him, the answer is NO - we definitely cannot believe in infant damnation.
It’s the children that are first saved, and all children are saved, baptized or not because otherwise Jesus would not have said “suffer not the little one to come unto me”. It’s definitely us waxing lyrical on theology and the damnation of infants however that are in danger of hell for being so presumptive as to even ask such a question after the Bible has made it very clear.
Romans 10:6-7 says clearly:
““Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) or 'Who will descend into the deep?”"
Why do we mortals think we have so much right to judge and mull over who gets to go to heaven and who doesn’t?
In light of the above and that Jesus said that it would be better if a millstone were put around the neck and a man to be drowned than that one of the little ones be caused to sin, and that we must be like children to receive the kingdom of heaven, and that we should NOT hinder the little ones to come to Him, the answer is NO - we definitely cannot believe in infant damnation.
It’s the children that are first saved, and all children are saved, baptized or not because otherwise Jesus would not have said “suffer not the little one to come unto me”. It’s definitely us waxing lyrical on theology and the damnation of infants however that are in danger of hell for being so presumptive as to even ask such a question after the Bible has made it very clear.
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peregrinator_it
Guest
“Self-seeking psychological squirmies” … that’s a bit insulting, if you’re implying that’s what inflicts anyone who does not hold to infant damnation.
It seems to me that given what we do know certainly (from Scripture, Tradition,etc.) of how and to whom Christ has offered salvation (particularly during His life on earth), then a fortiori He may offer salvation to those who simply have no chance to avail themselves of the sacraments and who have not sinned personally.
It seems to me that the position the Church holds is the more rational position to take.
(And, yes, I say this at the risk of being accused of elevating myself above the Council of Lyons… there should be a rueful face smiley…)
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stuart12
Guest
It is not cruel to believe in some concept of limbo. God is not bound to bring any man to the beatific vision simply because a soul exists, He does so freely out of His goodness. Yet, it is better to exist in ‘limbo’ than not to exist at all. It is not a place of eternal torment, the souls are not embittered by being held there, although their nature is not fulfilled.
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peregrinator_it
Guest
In the realm of allowable personal belief-- this is for ziewolf and mlldlr:
St. Bernard of Clairvaux, no theological slouch (and founder of the Cistercians and author of the Memorare) apparently believed in baptism of desire for children of Catholic parents who die before birth. From a letter of his to grieving parents on that very question:
“Your faith spoke for this child. Baptism for this child was only delayed by time. Your faith suffices. The waters of your womb — were they not the waters of life for this child? Look at your tears. Are they not like the waters of baptism? Do not fear this. God’s ability to love is greater than our fears. Surrender everything to God.”
St. Bernard of Clairvaux, no theological slouch (and founder of the Cistercians and author of the Memorare) apparently believed in baptism of desire for children of Catholic parents who die before birth. From a letter of his to grieving parents on that very question:
“Your faith spoke for this child. Baptism for this child was only delayed by time. Your faith suffices. The waters of your womb — were they not the waters of life for this child? Look at your tears. Are they not like the waters of baptism? Do not fear this. God’s ability to love is greater than our fears. Surrender everything to God.”
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Genesis315
Guest
St. Thomas also explained how potentially God could impart sanctifying grace to an infant apart from Baptism: “Children while in the mother’s womb have not yet come forth into the world to live among other men. Consequently they cannot be subject to the action of man, so as to receive the sacrament, at the hands of man, unto salvation. They can, however, be subject to the action of God, in Whose sight they live, so as, by a kind of privilege, to receive the grace of sanctification; as was the case with those who were sanctified in the womb.”(III, q. 68, art.11))
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Victorious
Guest
No…they’re not. They are a serious attempt to reconcile the mercy of God with the necessity of Baptism.
And just as it is judgmental to assume that all of any particular class of persons is damned, it is presumptuous to assume that all children are saved. This is an attitude that leads ultimately to the negligent or even willful failure to have children baptized, which the Church declares is a solemn duty of parents.
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Genesis315
Guest
It is meant in the following way, from St. Athanasius (On the Incarnation 54:3):
- For He was made man that we might be made God ; and He manifested Himself by a body that we might receive the idea of the unseen Father; and He endured the insolence of men that we might inherit immortality.
2 Peter 1:4 By whom he hath given us most great and precious promises: that by these you may be made partakers of the divine nature: flying the corruption of that concupiscence which is in the world.
Matt. 5:8 Blessed are the clean of heart: for they shall see God.
1 John 3:2 Dearly beloved, we are now the sons of God; and it hath not yet appeared what we shall be. We know, that, when he shall appear, we shall be like to him: because we shall see him as he is.
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peregrinator_it
Guest
Your post presents a false dichotomy. I don’t think that those of us who do not hold infant damnation to be true presume all children are saved.
We simply cannot know. But (the Church has said) we may reasonably hope and trust in God’s mercy. That is what we do.
I doubt any Catholic here would argue that baptism is unnecessary.
I do think that the false dichotomy you present (either one believes that all infants who die before they can be baptized are deprived of salvation or one (falsely) presumes they are saved and thus believes that baptism is unnecessary) is cruel to those who have experienced the death of a child before birth.
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Victorious
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The post I was answering contained a statement (which I did not quote) that all children are saved. That is what I was addressing.
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peregrinator_it
Guest
My apologies. I wasn’t interpreting zielwolf’s post as saying that all children are saved, but I do ready too quickly sometimes.
Mary_Gail_36
New member
I agree. I’ve lost 2 babies to miscarriage as well. We pray to our Lady to “Pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death” Wouldn’t that include the babies created by the Lord?
As for baptism of desire, after a miscarriage my priest told me parents can provide for their dead children through Baptism of Desire.
I haven’t read the thread past your two posts. I don’t know what others have said. But these threads come up often enough. I try to avoid them.
Mary_Gail_36
New member
The Devil is evil.
Killing innocent little babies in their own mothers’ wombs is evil.
The Devil wants to cause chaos, wants disorder. The bond between a mother and child is supposed to be like the bond between Jesus and His Mother.
Abortion would be the exact opposite of that bond.
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Oneofthewomen
Guest
Thank you so much for posting this quote from St. Bernard!
I wish everyone would remember that it is all about LOVE,
and a loving God would not subject an innocent to the firey torments of hell.
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IntegraCatholic
Guest
Notice that he never says the infant is saved or even could be saved. He is obviously attempting to sympathize with a grieving mother without contradicting the teaching of the Church. If he said something like this in a theological discourse, the implications would be very different. In any case, especially with the last sentence. He is just trying to give the mother hope, keeping in mind that she was likely never catechized about the existence of limbo or anything like that. He is basically telling her that she need not worry about sending her infant to the fires of hell. God is merciful (and can provide for her child a place of natural happiness). After all, unless she was negligent in her time of expectation, she certainly was only fulfilling a very important duty of her state in life.
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peregrinator_it
Guest
I don’t think this is a legitimate interpretation of St. Bernard’s quote. Clearly he is equating the waters of the womb and the tears of the parents with baptisms. (If those aren’t rhetorical questions he poses, I don’t know what are.) Baptism for the child, he says, has been delayed not omitted.
In fairness, I think those arguing for “infant damnation” are not arguing that those who die before birth suffer all the punishments of hell.
They are arguing for a theoretical “fourth” place (neither heaven, nor hell, nor purgatory) that to them is more intellectually acceptable than the notion that God both could and would work His salvation outside of the sacraments in some cases.
I don’t think most of those posting in favor of “infant damnation” have any understanding of what a heavy responsibility being a parent is (especially a mother), nor how greatly good parents desire their children’s salvation, nor how heavy the unknowing and grief weighs on those who have lost a child before birth. And consequently, they favor a more narrow speculative view of salvation, rather than admit the hope that the Church allows.
And I would like to repeat that it is perfectly acceptable, rational, and not contrary to the Faith to hope that children who die before birth and without baptism may be saved by a God who sacrificed His Son for all those stained by original sin.
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Angel_Bradford
Guest
The fate of unbaptized children is entrusted to the mercy of God.
1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation. He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them. Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who** **have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament. The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.
1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"63 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.
"The Second Vatican Council stated, “For since Christ died for all (Rom. 8:32) . . . we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partners, in a way known to God, in the paschal mystery” (Gaudium et Spes 22). This includes the young and those severely retarded.
"Some have speculated about what form God’s offer of salvation might take to children. One suggestion is that he might enlighten them at the moment of death and enable them to make a choice for or against him. This possibility was endorsed by the nineteenth-century Catholic theologian Heinrich Klee.
Another suggestion is that these persons may have a form of “baptism of desire” through the desire of their** **parents, of the Church, or of someone else. This would operate the way the faith of the Church suffices to allow infants to be baptized, even though they lack faith themselves. This idea (“vicarious baptism of desire”) was endorsed by Cardinal Cajetan at the time of the Reformation."
This Rock, Nov. 1994, Quick Questions column
Oct. 6, 2004 International Theological Commission on fate of unbaptized children.
Baptized** babies who die (**before the age of reason) will go directly to heaven.
1263 By Baptism all sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin. In those who have been reborn nothing remains that would impede their entry into the Kingdom of God, neither Adam’s sin, nor personal sin, nor the consequences of sin, the gravest of which is separation from God.
1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation. He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them. Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who** **have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament. The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.
1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"63 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.
"The Second Vatican Council stated, “For since Christ died for all (Rom. 8:32) . . . we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partners, in a way known to God, in the paschal mystery” (Gaudium et Spes 22). This includes the young and those severely retarded.
"Some have speculated about what form God’s offer of salvation might take to children. One suggestion is that he might enlighten them at the moment of death and enable them to make a choice for or against him. This possibility was endorsed by the nineteenth-century Catholic theologian Heinrich Klee.
Another suggestion is that these persons may have a form of “baptism of desire” through the desire of their** **parents, of the Church, or of someone else. This would operate the way the faith of the Church suffices to allow infants to be baptized, even though they lack faith themselves. This idea (“vicarious baptism of desire”) was endorsed by Cardinal Cajetan at the time of the Reformation."
This Rock, Nov. 1994, Quick Questions column
Oct. 6, 2004 International Theological Commission on fate of unbaptized children.
Baptized** babies who die (**before the age of reason) will go directly to heaven.
1263 By Baptism all sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin. In those who have been reborn nothing remains that would impede their entry into the Kingdom of God, neither Adam’s sin, nor personal sin, nor the consequences of sin, the gravest of which is separation from God.
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josephdaniel29
Guest
Anyone who would even consider the scholastic, hyper-legalistic idea that God would send unbaptized babies to Hell or “Limbo” doesn’t have a clue about God’s justice. God is not just in the sense you are applying to Him. In fact in the human sense of the term He is gloriously, wonderfully unjust. Justice demands an “eye for an eye”, restitution and punishment. God requires nothing of us except that we ask for and accept His forgiveness, His love and His mercy.
God is not just because He demands punishment if we violate one of His “fetishes”, He is just because He gives His love and mercy freely to each and every human without exception. That of course applies to infants who have not yet been baptized.
Psalm 107:1
O give thanks unto the LORD, for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever!
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josephdaniel29
Guest
My friend there are lots of things you have to worry about as you work out your salvation. Whether or not your children are waiting for you in heaven is not one of them. God is love. It is completely inconceivable that He would send an unbaptized infant to hell or “limbo” and don’t let anyone tell you otherwise.
In Christ,
Joe
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