Can we believe in infant damnation?

[DoulaMama]

No…they’re not. They are a serious attempt to reconcile the mercy of God with the necessity of Baptism.

And just as it is judgmental to assume that all of any particular class of persons is damned, it is presumptuous to assume that all children are saved. This is an attitude that leads ultimately to the negligent or even willful failure to have children baptized, which the Church declares is a solemn duty of parents.

So, then what about all the fertilized eggs that don’t implant? Or all those miscarriages that women don’t even realize they have because of hormonal issues? I think the Church needs to address these things in the light of what we know about science today and not base it on things written back when a women wasn’t considered “pregnant” or “with child” until she felt the baby move.

 

[Repcodan]

This is the problem – if you die without baptism, then you go to Hell. Even if you believe in Baptism of Desire (note: I am neither denying nor confirming my belief therein) then how can a baby, below the age of reason, desire baptism? Isn’t one tenet of Baptism of Desire that the soul in question has to sincerely desire baptism? If someone else desires baptism for him, then the whole world would be saved!

If that’s so, then what good is infant baptism in the first place? Infants who are alive and are baptized have no desire for baptism and yet the church (I believe) teaches that the baptism is valid.

If Phanxico’s supposition is true, then the only baptisms that are valid are believer’s baptisms. And that’s not Catholic doctrine.

 

[Victorious]

So, then what about all the fertilized eggs that don’t implant? Or all those miscarriages that women don’t even realize they have because of hormonal issues? I think the Church needs to address these things in the light of what we know about science today and not base it on things written back when a women wasn’t considered “pregnant” or “with child” until she felt the baby move.

You’re reading more into my words than what I said.

 

[Leo_The_Great]

Not to be mean to babies (WHo I believe Christ finds a way to save somehow):

BUt let’s face some facts:

We are born spiritually dead. If you want to know the state of our soul at birth, it corresponds directly to the dead Christ on the Cross, since he atoned in his body perfectly for all sin, this must be what sin looks like, ERGO, this is the state of my soul. From the moment of conception until baptism.

The church has ***defined ***that at the very least, the souls of those who die with original sin only are deprived of the presence of God. THis would Be babies, young children, virtuous pagans and Mentally retarted.

Now, in light of THis, I believe we need to take Baptism super seriously, obviously. It’s not just the way you join your parents church, it is the means by which you share in Christs Death and Ressurection, a la St. Paul in Romans 6.

However, I adhere to Orthodox Theology, and I believe that although the church does not err in her official declarations, some things could be said here:

First: THere is no list of which General Synods after 1000 a.d. are to be considered ecumenical. The 14 General Synods held in the west have not acquired a formally ecumenical character to my knowledge, if so, please show me where, I would love to know.

Maybe the Council of Lyons was wrong.

Second: We are limited to the sacraments, God is not. He does what he wants.

Third: If there is a limbo for infants, what happens to it in the Second coming? Limbo cannot be eternal, for the abodes of the Dead are destroyed at the end of time. All there is is The New Jerusalem and THose outside it.

Fourth: We should pray for infants and realize, since God works all things to their BEST end, that somehow, in his wisdom, it would be better for this CHild to die than to have lived, for God cannot be thwarted, he only wills Good, and he cannot be frustrated. SO any reality where this child lived is in somw mysterious way inconceivable to the mind of God: SOmehow, things are better this way. Wrap your brain around THAT trainwreck!



Anyway, it’s not really our business: Baptize your kids.

 

[IntegraCatholic]

Anyone who would even consider the scholastic, hyper-legalistic idea that God would send unbaptized babies to Hell or “Limbo” doesn’t have a clue about God’s justice.

Phew! Good thing God sent you to correct the received opinion of the Church for a millennium and to be able to understand what St. Thomas Aquinas could not, that is, the justice of God.

 

[Hesychios]

Can we believe, as Catholics, in infant damnation? Is it still a valid theological opinion for those who take the second council of Lyons and Pope Gregory X seriously?

For a Latin Catholic, it looks like it to me.

 

[DoulaMama]

You’re reading more into my words than what I said.

Maybe so, but it IS something that the Church needs to address.

 

[DoulaMama]

For a Latin Catholic, it looks like it to me.

Sad, isn’t it! Makes Orthodoxy look pretty good from where I’m at after reading these posts…but then again, I just realized I’m over in the “Traditional” section…that speaks volumes about compassion (or the lack of it!!!)

 

[clmowry]

Can we believe, as Catholics, in infant damnation? Is it still a valid theological opinion for those who take the second council of Lyons and Pope Gregory X seriously?

Is this the statement that you are taking “seriously” that leads you to believe you must conclude that infants who die without sacramental baptism are damned?

“As for the souls of those who die in mortal sin or with original sin only, they go down immediately to hell, to be punished, however, with different punishments”

Chuck

 

[mlldrl]

For 38 weeks my daughter grew in my wife’s womb. She kicked and turned and poked her mother. She turned so much that she wrapped the cord around her neck twice. Then two weeks before her due date (All Saints Day) this sweet and otherwise healthy baby died. She was to be baptized on the Feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe. She would have been raised in a household with crucifixes in every room and a holy water font by the door. By a family who prays together. By a family who serves the Church with their time, talent and treasure. She would have known our Lord and our Lady as well as she would have known me. But that never came to be for her or her two siblings lost to miscarriage.

Now if you believe that God created this little girl and allowed her to die AND damned her because she isn’t one of His elect then you’re a Calvinist. Go down to the corner Baptist chuck and say the sinners prayer.

The Church speaks three type of grace; initial, actual and sanctifying. Initial grace is given to everyone (as I understand it) and is the working of the Holy Spirit which moves men away from sin and towards God. So who says that my daughter doesn’t deserve that same grace that I received? Huh? Me a sinner, someone with personal sin gets it but she doesn’t? What kind of God is that? Calvin’s God.

I’m ok with not knowing for certain…it’s painful but I trust in God but some of the things I’ve read in this thread make me sick. Many of you would fit better with the Pharisees than with the Saints and you had better pray that you’re never in this situation.

M

 

[kimmielittle]

“Your faith spoke for this child. Baptism for this child was only delayed by time. Your faith suffices. The waters of your womb — were they not the waters of life for this child? Look at your tears. Are they not like the waters of baptism? Do not fear this. God’s ability to love is greater than our fears. Surrender everything to God.”

 

[DoulaMama]

For a Latin Catholic, it looks like it to me.

Makes me want to “head East”!!

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

For 38 weeks my daughter grew in my wife’s womb. She kicked and turned and poked her mother. She turned so much that she wrapped the cord around her neck twice. Then two weeks before her due date (All Saints Day) this sweet and otherwise healthy baby died. She was to be baptized on the Feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe. She would have been raised in a household with crucifixes in every room and a holy water font by the door. By a family who prays together. By a family who serves the Church with their time, talent and treasure. She would have known our Lord and our Lady as well as she would have known me. But that never came to be for her or her two siblings lost to miscarriage.

Now if you believe that God created this little girl and allowed her to die AND damned her because she isn’t one of His elect then you’re a Calvinist. Go down to the corner Baptist chuck and say the sinners prayer.

The Church speaks three type of grace; initial, actual and sanctifying. Initial grace is given to everyone (as I understand it) and is the working of the Holy Spirit which moves men away from sin and towards God. So who says that my daughter doesn’t deserve that same grace that I received? Huh? Me a sinner, someone with personal sin gets it but she doesn’t? What kind of God is that? Calvin’s God.

I’m ok with not knowing for certain…it’s painful but I trust in God but some of the things I’ve read in this thread make me sick. Many of you would fit better with the Pharisees than with the Saints and you had better pray that you’re never in this situation.

M

There is a thread in the parenting forum called Mommies of little saints. One of the earlier posts is a prayer by Mother Angelica regarding miscarriage. It is very moving, and helped me.

Isn’t Our Lady the Queen of the Angels? Don’t we all have guardian angels? Don’t we pray to Our Lady to intercede for us at the moment of our deaths? Could it not be possible that your baby daughter’s Angel let your baby know about Jesus right before she died?

I have an uncle who died when I was 10 years old. He only received his Baptism and then refused to receive any of the Sacraments. He refused. He was a great sinner. He was very ill before he died…the night before he died the Priest came to annoint him. He told the priest no.

Objectively speaking, he should be damned. As a child I would pray for him. I know my father prayed for him. I know my grandmother offered many rosaries for him. We have hope.

If we have hope for him, why not hope for your little girl?

Prayers for your family, I can’t imagine your pain.

 

[stuart12]

I understand that this is a sensitive subject, however let us stop with the personal insults that those who believe in the necessity of baptism are uncharitable or hateful, or heretics. Such attacks are just as uncharitable as you claim others are.

Plus, Calvin did not believe that all who die unbaptised perish:

‘I answer that this teaching is madness. In telling us that He will be the God of our seed after us, God declares that He adopts our children and keeps them for His own before they were born.’’

For all the errors of Calvin let us not load all of our conceptions of an ‘evil’ God onto him.

No man, woman or child deserves to live or enter into heaven. Such is a gift of God for His glory. However, maybe (this is theological conjecture) it be better that a child die (and God allows this) in the womb, thereby the child only receives the mildest of punishments, but if the child should be born and life, lives a life of great sin and perishes with great torment.

O Altitudo…

 

[josephdaniel29]

Phew! Good thing God sent you to correct the received opinion of the Church for a millennium and to be able to understand what St. Thomas Aquinas could not, that is, the justice of God.

I wouldn’t expect St Thomas to have a correct conception of God. As to the truth, God has revealed to the Church. Some people just have not been exposed to it.

Let me ask you a question. Can you think of anything your child could do to cause you to kill them, much less condemn them to eternal torment? If not then is your love and mercy greater than God’s?

The idea that God is somehow constrained by some immutable law that will not allow Him to save an unbaptized infant is preposterous. It’s precisely this kind of pagan conception of God that has lead to the decline of Christianity and rise of atheism.

If God condemns innocent infants to eternal damnation then aborting that same infant is mild in comparison. How can we on one hand say life is precious and on the other believe that God will torment that person for all eternity if they die before baptism? I mean, does God really require us to be more loving and compassionate than He is? Who could love a God that could do something like that to a child?

Do you really believe that the all powerful, all knowing, all loving, all merciful God is somehow incapable of bringing an unbaptized infant home to heaven? Of all the things we adults have to worry about as we work out our salvation whether or not unbaptized infants are in heaven is not one of them. I for one have absolute faith in God’s mercy and boundless love for each and every one of us.

Yours in Christ
Joe

 

[Marc_Anthony]

Is it possible that unbaptiseb babies go to the limbo of the infants but are then saved by Christ at the second coming, like those in bosom of Abraham?

 

[clmowry]

Is it possible that unbaptiseb babies go to the limbo of the infants but are then saved by Christ at the second coming, like those in bosom of Abraham?

If it was possible for Abraham, I don’t know why it wouldn’t be possible for unbaptised infants.

As the Church teaches, it is also possible they are already in heaven, and that is therefore my hope and prayer.

Chuck

 

[stuart12]

Nothing is impossible for God, so if He wishes to cleanse the children in some way so that they may enter Heaven, then He would not be unjust to do so. Apart from the Church declaring one way or the other, we can’t know. As I have written, I have my view but that is certainly open to change, I hope I could change it, but I base my authority on Augustine, under Peter says otherwise.

 

[mlldrl]

I understand that this is a sensitive subject, however let us stop with the personal insults that those who believe in the necessity of baptism are uncharitable or hateful, or heretics. Such attacks are just as uncharitable as you claim others are.

I too believe in the necessity of baptism but I’m not willing to limit a loving God by saying that the unbaptized are damned.

Plus, Calvin did not believe that all who die unbaptised perish:

I said that Calvinists hold to the idea that God creates souls that He plans to damn. If some are suggesting that an unbaptized baby has no possibility of salvation then I don’t see that as being any different from the Calvinist view of the elect in a broad sense.

No man, woman or child deserves to live or enter into heaven. Such is a gift of God for His glory.

Correct, no man deserves heaven but God give each of us a chance. Why not, in some supernatural way, give those innocents a chance?

However, maybe (this is theological conjecture) it be better that a child die (and God allows this) in the womb, thereby the child only receives the mildest of punishments, but if the child should be born and life, lives a life of great sin and perishes with great torment.

I’m not trying to be flippant, but I’ve heard a pro-abortionist use the same argument to support abortion. That the child is better off dead than to live a life of sin and pain.

On Dec. 28 the Church celebrates the feast of the Holy Innocents. I’m sure you know that they were all Jewish boys probably 2 and under. Never baptized. Never heard the gospel. Yet the Church declares them Saints in heaven. It is possible.

I’ll close as I have before, I pray that none of you ever have to carry the cross of losing a child especially before baptism.

Michael

 

[stuart12]

I too believe in the necessity of baptism but I’m not willing to limit a loving God by saying that the unbaptized are damned.

I said that Calvinists hold to the idea that God creates souls that He plans to damn. If some are suggesting that an unbaptized baby has no possibility of salvation then I don’t see that as being any different from the Calvinist view of the elect in a broad sense.

Correct, no man deserves heaven but God give each of us a chance. Why not, in some supernatural way, give those innocents a chance?

I’m not trying to be flippant, but I’ve heard a pro-abortionist use the same argument to support abortion. That the child is better off dead than to live a life of sin and pain.

On Dec. 28 the Church celebrates the feast of the Holy Innocents. I’m sure you know that they were all Jewish boys probably 2 and under. Never baptized. Never heard the gospel. Yet the Church declares them Saints in heaven. It is possible.

I’ll close as I have before, I pray that none of you ever have to carry the cross of losing a child especially before baptism.

Michael

God has created, creates and will create souls that He infallibly knows will reject Him and perish. Is that not the case? He could have spared them Hell simply by not bringing them into existence. Although, God does not damn someone to Hell by withholding grace. The massacre of the infants occured before the institution of the new covenant and the necessity of baptism. Father Abraham entered Heaven even though he passed from this life without undergoing regeneration.
Calvin denied that a man could even accept grace, it is given only to some. I say that all men are given grace and if they reject it they will perish. God grants more grace to some souls than others in His wisdom and justice.
My argument is nothing like that of an abortionist. None of us can bring about the murder of a child, which is a serious sin and deserving of Hell for those who do it or support this evil. God could certainly have placed a child with a family that would not kill it, or allow it to survive to birth rather than die through a miscarriage.

I have not said nor ever will that it is impossible for them to enter Heaven after undergoing some sort of purification, so abandon any view you may have that those who hold such opinions (and that is all they are) are uncharitable. Was Augustine a child hater, or uncharitable?