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cathdoki
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Personally I have proof that the moon is made of layers of velcro. Various colors of course!We are free to believe whatever we want. Just because we believe that the moon is blue cheese does not make it so.
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cathdoki
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No it is not.
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cathdoki
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Are you?
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grannymh
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Everyone knows that “Catholic” theologians have gone against Divine Revelation even before Arius. In fact, people living and eating with Jesus Christ objected to Divine Revelation. This is the reason that the Holy Spirit is sent–in order to guard the Catholic Deposit of Faith. The universal Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, is the best publication of the Catholic Deposit of Faith.
Blessings,
granny
Human nature is sacred because it is an unique creation by God.
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grannymh
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Hopefully not green or blue because I have difficulty distinguishing mold on any kind of surface.Personally I have proof that the moon is made of layers of velcro. Various colors of course!
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IntegraCatholic
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No. I haven’t said a single thing here that is my opinion. I’ve merely presented the documents of the Church and theologians. What’s more, these are supported by rational argument, whereas such a statement from the CCC is not (and actually doesn’t make any sense).
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Victorious
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First off, the Center for Learning that publishes this booklet does not appear to be a Catholic source. It does not even self-identify as Catholic. Why would you go to a non-Catholic source to find out what the Church teaches? Your extremely diluted view of original sin, which is far more tragic than your description implies, and of Baptism, which is far more stupendous than you seem to think, are evidence that this publication is not trustworthy.
Baptism does the following:
– Forgives all sin, actual and original, and remits all punishment due to sin, though we must always struggle against concupiscence (that is the tendency to sin).
– Imprints in our souls an indelible character, never to be effaced, even by damnation.
– Works an ontological change in our souls. A person is not the same after Baptism as he was before. It makes us new creatures in God.
– Infuses sanctifying grace into the soul, without which we cannot please God. We lose sanctifying grace whenever we commit a mortal sin, and it is this that the sacrament of Penance restores to us. That is why Penance and Baptism are called Sacraments of the Dead: both bring the spiritually dead to life.
– Makes us members of the Body of Christ.
Which church are you learning in? If you’re going to the Center for Learning to find out what the Church teaches, then you haven’t been taught by the Church. You have not learned the whole truth about God, if you have not learned enough to be awed by, and humbled before, His power and majesty. There is also His justice that must be satisfied. And the idea that we all just get hoisted up to heaven, regardless of how we have lived our lives, is a dangerous heresy and not the teaching of the Church.
I think it would be more accurate to say that the only means of salvation available to infants as far as we know is Baptism. God is not restricted to dispensing His grace only by means of the Sacraments (though it would be very rash to presume upon this).
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IntegraCatholic
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You are right about that. But, as I said, it is absurd to apply this merely to those who die in original sin only (who the Council of Lyons says must descend into hell–I still don’t exactly see how someone can contradict this). One would be required to add such a caveat to every example I gave above. It reminds me of those who say: “Yes, I believe outside the Church there is no salvation, but as the Church understands it.” Do you say this about the Blessed Sacrament, about the nature of any of the Sacraments, the nature of grace, prayer, the evil of abortion, etc., etc., ad infinitum? There is no need to say “as the Church teaches.” This is presumed for anyone who claims the name Catholic. The same is true of salvation. We can and must unabashedly proclaim the teaching of the Church about this. The Popes and councils have spoken. Those who die in original sin only go to hell. Baptism is necessary to remove original sin. To say that infants who die without Baptism can be saved entirely contradicts the teaching of the Church that Baptism is necessary for salvation. If it is not required even for them, then for whom is it required?
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cathdoki
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Nope! You’ve said much that is not part of church teaching.
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grannymh
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May I respectfully ask for your help. I found St. Augustine mentioned in your post 17 and Lyons mentioned in your post 28, but I haven’t yet been able to find where you actually presented documents (plural) of the Church and theologians with appropriate citations . Please be patient with these old eyes and provide your post numbers. Thank you.
Blessings,
granny
The quest for truth is worthy of the adventures of the journey.
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grannymh
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For your information…
For everyone’s information …
Please reread post 40 above.
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grannymh
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Being “long in the tooth” I remember when Original Sin was described as leaving a mark or stain. One of the great advantages of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, is the way it explains our Faith. For example. On our part, Original Sin is called “sin” only in an analogical sense. For us, it is a sin “contracted” and not “committed” – a state and not an act. Our human tendency to sin is the effect of Original Sin and not the sin itself. Our human nature was not totally corrupted by Original Sin. It was wounded or weakened in the natural powers proper to it. The term for this effect is concupiscence.
Blessings,
granny
Basic Catholic teaching **regarding Adam and Original Sin **is found in the
Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, ISBN: 1-57455-109-4
Paragraphs 355-421.
The good news of Jesus Christ follows in Paragraph 422, etc.
One can put the word paragraph and the number in the Catechism’s search bar in link www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm Entering topics is also very useful.
When you enter a paragraph number, like “paragraph 355”, and then click on the opening line, CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 355 you will see the following under the paragraph:
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Aggiornamento
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The booklet has received the Nihil Obstat from The Reverend Joseph J. Fortuna, STD, Censor Deputatis and the Imprimatur from The Most Reverend Anthony M. Pilla, DD, M.A.; Bishop of Cleveland. It is free of doctrinal and moral error under the laws of the church (since we want to be legalistic about it
).I am learning in the Catholic Church, and our experiences have obviously been very different. What I have been presented in this thread was taught in a parish class by a priest. I would also respectfully submit that none of us have learned the whole truth about God. Where did I say I am not in wonder and awe of God? Justice is tempered by mercy, and we must work for his justice here on earth so that we might build his kingdom on earth as it is in heaven. And I really doubt that God will exact “justice” on innocent children. You certainly make many assumptions about my beliefs that I never mentioned.
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cathdoki
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Long in the tooth? Great white shark? Tyrannosaurus rex? Just kidding granny!
You are a blessing to this site for your wisdom, knowledge of our Catholic faith, and your considerate and intelligent posts.
You clearly present Catholic teaching and provide the source.
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IntegraCatholic
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I also mentioned the Roman Catechism, ordered to be published by the Council of Trent. I never said that I provided any citations.
I don’t really see the purpose of going back through the ten pages of responses to find each of my statements.
The issue is very clear and explained by the OP. The Church has infallibly defined that those who die in mortal sin or original sin only descend immediately into hell but to be punished with different punishments. Yes, we can say of them (as we can say of any human being) that we entrust them to the mercy of God. That doesn’t change the weight of the infallible statement anymore than it changes the weight of the infallible statement that no one outside the Church will be saved (unless he be joined to her), that no one who commits willful murder will be saved (without confession), that no one who commits adultery will be saved, etc., etc., etc. You can list off any number of the teachings of the Church. “If one says x, anathema sit”; “if one does y, he will be damned”. Yes, we entrust all of these persons to the mercy of God. That doesn’t change the truth of the statements, which are based upon what God has revealed to his Church. He does not deceive.
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cathdoki
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My friend, you put God in a box. And you’ve mis-quoted church teaching. If you have a mortal sin on your soul when you die and have repented, you will not see hell. Confession is needed, but to be repentful is the important part of the sacrament.I also mentioned the Roman Catechism, ordered to be published by the Council of Trent. I never said that I provided any citations.
I don’t really see the purpose of going back through the ten pages of responses to find each of my statements.
If you die with a mortal sin on your soul and have expressed your sorrow to God, then the sin is forgiven. Confession is still needed as a part of the body of Christ, but you are forgiven as soon as you repent. NOWHERE in the CCC is this contradicted. What an awful God we would worship if repentance was insufficient to save our souls at the last minute.
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IntegraCatholic
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Only if you have made a perfect act of contrition with the intention to confess that sin. Otherwise, you make the Sacrament (as with Baptism) meaningless. I haven’t misquoted Church teaching. Please study the history of the issue rather than reading your presuppositions into the documents of the Church. The new must be read in light of the old, not vice versa, which is precisely what you are doing, and it makes absolutely no sense.
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cathdoki
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That’s wrong. You’ve made salvation a topic of chance.
Theoretically according to your flawed understanding, a person could have lived a life of never sinning mortally, then commit a mortal sin at 100 years old. Repent, but die before being able to go to confession and be condemned to hell. IF this is the God you believe in, then I’m glad I don’t. I follow Catholic teaching.
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IntegraCatholic
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That’s right. This situation is possible. No one deserves heaven and certainly not someone who has committed the infinite sin (in a certain sense) against an Almighty God who created him. There are several dicta in the writings of the Fathers about those who were damned after their first mortal sin, including, according to St. Gregory the Great (if my memory serves me correctly; I read it quoted in the work of a different Doctor of the Church), the occasion of a 5-year-old boy who after his first mortal sin, that of blasphemy, was immediately swallowed up by the earth, his soul being sent to hell to await the return of his body at the end of time.
Okay, I’ll bite. Where does the Church teach that someone can be saved who is repentant but without a perfect act of contrition and the desire to go to confession (which is implied in the perfect act of contrition)?
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