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grannymh
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The same as now. God loved them and brought them to Himself.
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clmowry
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That doesn’t make what it said incorrect. See CCC 1257-1261.
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IntegraCatholic
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Yes, it was. How does it not address the question? We can’t know the mind of God, so it doesn’t even make sense to speculate about it. God wills all men be saved. That doesn’t prevent some of them from being damned. I also address the objection that you pose (i.e., that if infants are damned without Baptism, that God created them “without chance” for salvation) in that in his infinite wisdom and perfect knowledge that he may do this as a mercy, knowing such souls would disgrace their Baptism by mortal sin and be lost if they led full lives.
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mlldrl
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OK, but I’m a little bit confused. I asked a very simple question and instead of a simple answer I get a meandering answer that I’m left to dissect to find the heart of your answer. You see, I’m not educated in these matters so here goes…
It’s funny to me that at the start you state that we can’t know the mind of God then you go on to speculate God’s will. Hmmm, which is it? Never mind, don’t answer that.
Getting to the nugget of your answer. Based on what you’ve written you believe that God doesn’t respect the free will of at least some of His creatures and creates some of them without any hope of salvation. I think that idea is summed up in the terms limited atonement and unconditional election…at least from what I’ve read here on CA’s website. I thought those were Calvinist ideas, but like I said, I’m not educated about such things. I only know what I read in the Catechism and here on CA… But I noticed that you prefer some kind of “special knowledge” that you were telling Granny about over the Catechism. Hmmm.
Now if I take in to account that you believe that God denies some people’s free will because it’s better to stick them in limbo rather than give them freedom to choose Him and perhaps commit personal sin and that you call this a “mercy” and apply it to the real world, by your reasoning God is being merciful to the all of the babies who are stillborn or miscarried or aborted. And since mercy is a good thing and since there are about 4000 abortions a day in the US you must see that as a HUGE outpouring of mercy. True? If not why?
Anyway, thank for answering my question. If you don’t mind may I ask you one more? How many of your children has God been merciful to by not allowing them to exercise their free will and sending them to hell?
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IntegraCatholic
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The first grace of conversion and final perseverance in grace are free gifts of God. No one merits these things. No one can freely choose them. They are free gifts. This is an authentic Catholic understanding of predestination. There are five general schools concerning grace and predestination, but they all agree on these two points. If this is God “not respecting the free will of his creatures” (this is a very, very strange way of putting it, for God created man… he gives him his free will; man doesn’t ever deserve anything from God; God cannot lack respect for what is his own gift, etc.), then, yes, I would say he does not. This isn’t the case, of course, for the reasons given. The free gift of the first grace is true for an infant or for a 90-year-old man. It is a free gift, regardless of choices, regardless of age. This is a mystery, but we can still “speculate” as to the reasons.
LOL. What?
No, no, no one has “freedom to choose him”; the first grace is a free gift. No one can do it without the special grace of God, which he gives to some and not to others. This is not Calvinism. It is the authentic Catholic teaching on predestination (to be distinguished from Calvinistic predestinarianism). Look these two terms up on the Catholic Encyclopedia for a broader treatment.
That is one explanation. First you don’t want me to address this, then you do… can we try to keep all our ducks in a row here, please?
First of all, you have twisted what I said. I was speaking of those who end up being stillborn or murdered. The application is a non sequitur. It doesn’t mean everyone should be murdered; it was a possible explanation as to why some endure such by the permissive will of God. What’s more, it would be to attempt to make a definitive judgment about the mind of God, which we cannot do, as I have continually said. I refer you back to Romans 11. The merciful thing is to baptize these poor infants who have no other means of salvation to be saved.
Morally speaking, even if killing these infants sent them to heaven, you cannot commit evil that good may come of it, e.g., you can’t commit the mortal sin of murder against Martin Luther’s mother in order to prevent Protestantism. The principle of double effect (choosing the lesser of two evils when either outcome entails some evil) can never including doing something that is intrinsically evil.
This is a loaded question. Concerning free will and salvation, see above. None, thanks be to God. Our Lady is better to us than we deserve. I would also add that this doesn’t have the slightest bearing on the truth or falsity of my position or yours.
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cathdoki
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So, what you are saying is that we don’t have freewill to accept or reject that gift. Interesting, but false.
Huh?
CCC 600 To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “predestination”, he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace: "In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place."395 For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness.396
Maybe because you tend to contradict yourself.
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IntegraCatholic
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You know nothing at all about the topic, and you presume to say whether something is true or false. I don’t understand so many people on these forums.
Yes, someone who is predestined must respond to grace, and that is included in his predestination. The same is not necessarily true of those who are not predestined.
No, you asked a opinion. I gave the principle and then answered your question, anyway.
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cathdoki
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Now that is insulting. But as several posters in this thread have indicated, you are baiting me. I’m much smarter than that. But I think it’s time you are reported.You know nothing at all about the topic, and you presume to say whether something is true or false. I don’t understand so many people on these forums.
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mlldrl
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No, you can’t have it both ways. Either your notions apply to all or to none. Regardless of how a little one dies God’s permissive will is at work and since you offered that it’s a merciful act then it is so regardless of how the little one dies whether naturally or not. And by the way, abortion IS murder.
In these posts you have said things that make God out to not offer the chance of salvation to some and to not respect our free will. The way you speak of God at times sounds more Muslim than Catholic. Then when people point out what you said you cover your tracks. When people cite the CCC you talk about how you’ve come to understand the teachings better by reading some unidentified documents.
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Michael_Francis
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Due to failing charity…
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