I doubt I would use the term “infused”.
That said, I believe that we receive the Holy Spirit at Baptism. Everything that is good and virtuous comes from Him. The beginnings of justifying faith are there.
Jon
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That said, I believe that we receive the Holy Spirit at Baptism. Everything that is good and virtuous comes from Him. The beginnings of justifying faith are there.
Jon
Yes, Luther did not consider them canon, which was not unusual from the time of st. Jerome. Catholic Cardinal Cajetan, a Luther contemporary and adversary, also seems to have agreed with st. Jerome’s view. The fact is that prior to Trent, Catholics were at liberty to hold the deuterocanon in question. Luther violated no Catholic rule in this way.
And, contrary to Protestants, Lutheranism has never excluded them from the canon, because the confessions have never stated the books in that way.
Jon
J
JRKH
Guest
WOW…
It really seems that this thread is totally off topic now…
Is there ANY chance of getting refocused here???
Jon - my friend - you may have missed my post way back at number 57…In fact since no one has commented on it maybe Everybody missed it…
but it does address the question that I (you know - the OP) would like to discuss…
Peace
James
It really seems that this thread is totally off topic now…
Is there ANY chance of getting refocused here???
Jon - my friend - you may have missed my post way back at number 57…In fact since no one has commented on it maybe Everybody missed it…
but it does address the question that I (you know - the OP) would like to discuss…
Peace
James
A
aidanbradypop
Guest
Why does it have to a him…just messing lolI doubt I would use the term “infused”.
That said, I believe that we receive the Holy Spirit at Baptism. Everything that is good and virtuous comes from Him. The beginnings of justifying faith are there.
Jon
A
aidanbradypop
Guest
I would like to know as well. I apologise for getting off topic. Wonder if any Lutheran synod will ever drop the alone? Is it out dated?
Hey Tomster,
I’ve often wondered about this. If the reason Luther questioned the deuterocanon can be attached to doctrinal beliefs, which specific Catholic doctrines are connected to each of the 7 DC books did he object to? I mean, there must have been something in each of them. It wouldn’t make any sense to question, say, Wisdom, because of something written in, say, Tobit.
Jon
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Judas_Thaddeus
Guest
I don’t believe the deuterocanon was ever in *serious *question, and I don’t think
Protestants should appeal to St. Jerome, seeing how the for one don’t acknow-
ledge saints and two, St. Jerome yielded to the authority of the Church, so
Protestants are choosing shaky ground here.
The Council of Trent was merely a reaffirmation, not the finalizing of the Canon,
something Protestants don’t really seem to realize. And you say “…contrary to
Protestants, Lutheranism…” as though Lutheranism isn’t Protestant, but everyone
knows that Luther was the Founding Father of Protestantism.
J
Judas_Thaddeus
Guest
I don’t think it’s too off topic, the “Faith Alone” officially
started with Luther, so it in part depends on the validity
of Luther.
I dont know about protestants, but Lutherans hold saints in very high regard. our Church calendar recognizes and honors plenty of them. It is my belief that Luther’s translation and inclusion of the DCs was a show of respect and deference to the practice of the early Church.
This is the Catholic response, but the fact is that Hippo, Carthage, etc. were not ecumenical councils. That said, and again, I think that influenced Luther’s choice to include the DCs.
Well, yes, though Hussites might have argued with you.
. The problem is the way the term Protestant is used today. It is used as a blanket term for all nonCatholic western Christians, as if we are all one communion and have the same beliefs. This has never been the case.The fact that we are sacramental and liturgical distinguishes us from most Protestants, if nothing else. So, that’s why you’ll find Lutherans make the distinction.
Jon
J
Judas_Thaddeus
Guest
ehhh, The Hussites appear to be more in the Proto-Reformation times,Well, yes, though Hussites might have argued with you.
kinda comparable to the hominid predating what we consider “Modern
Homo Sapiens”.
(Hussites referring to the move-
ment, not Hussites the people)
ment, not Hussites the people)
Also, it really matters not how different Lutheranism is from
all other Protestant sects, it still is marked as the starting
point where it all began.
S
steido01
Guest
Once again, your facts aren’t quite right. We Lutherans most certainly acknowledge the saints who went before us (LCMS Calendar of Saints), and we study the ECFs reverently. From the Augsburg Confession:
That Jerome deferred to his ecclesiastical authorities does not nullify the fact Catholics were free to dispute the DC. I could go on, but there are other threads on this topic and I’d only be repeating myself…
Judas Thaddeus:
We and most in Orthodoxy would disagree with you…
Judas Thaddeus:
You seem to think that there is a singular “Protestant Church,” for which Luther is to blame. Not only is this is false, it is giving far too much credit to a humble German monk.
There are many separate communions, and I can say honestly that I have much more in common with a Roman Catholic than I do 90% of those labelled protestants. Just because a Christian isn’t Roman Catholic doesn’t mean they’re protestant. Take a read at this: touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=11-03-014-fJudas, I commend you for being a faithful Catholic, and I pray that you continue to grow in the one, true faith. I read in your profile that you were not always so, and we know that all of heaven is thankful for your conversion (Luke 15:7). I also know that you are new to the forums. Sometimes, when we are first discovering (or re-discovering) our faith, we have a need to share it with others (a wonderful and, indeed, Christ-commanded thing!), but we should look for common ground where it exists, just as Christ did. Lutheranism is so much deeper than Wikipedia can tell you; reducing it to these simple arguments does a disservice to those who adhere to it. I think it also does a disservice to you.
I think this thread has gone about as far as it can go… I will be happy to respond to private messages.
Peace be with you,
C
concretecamper
Guest
Jon,
first…thanks for clarifying.
second…please show me where the Pope said faith alone is acceptable. And please…no Huffington Post.
third…without getting into justification vs. salvation debates, show me where Paul says faith alone saves. That was the question. and would confirm Luther’s doctrine.
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Back on topic.
James,
Lutherans understand the following
That salvation is exclusively the result of grace
That justification is exclusively the result of faith
That these are only possible because of Christ
We recognize that while justification comes by faith, this does not exclude the necessity of good works. Nor does it exclude the necessity of sanctification, our growth in grace and godliness as we grow.
Further, we recognize that hearing the word, and participating in the sacraments - Absolution and the Eucharist, strengthen saving faith, help us grow in grace, and strengthen our resolve to respond to His call to good works.
This may not be the way a Catholic would describe it, but I think it describes what we talked about earlier, that we are justified by faith working through love.
Jon
James,
Lutherans understand the following
That salvation is exclusively the result of grace
That justification is exclusively the result of faith
That these are only possible because of Christ
We recognize that while justification comes by faith, this does not exclude the necessity of good works. Nor does it exclude the necessity of sanctification, our growth in grace and godliness as we grow.
Further, we recognize that hearing the word, and participating in the sacraments - Absolution and the Eucharist, strengthen saving faith, help us grow in grace, and strengthen our resolve to respond to His call to good works.
This may not be the way a Catholic would describe it, but I think it describes what we talked about earlier, that we are justified by faith working through love.
Jon
J
JRKH
Guest
R
rcwitness
Guest
Everyone should know that Catholics view salvation as a free gift, not because of anything we have done to earn Gods love for us and His desire to come down to us and become man, so that we may be forgiven and become His children of our own free will.
Our doctrine of Faith and Works is founded on language and teaching from scripture. St Jame’s epistle fully explains the neccessity of works, in the life of the Christian. Our gift of salvation is by God’s grace and made actual in our baptism. This is God’s forgivenes of ALL sin freely given. It is evident in our baptisms of even infants.
However, baptism does not garauntee eternal salvation, as in Once Saved Always Saved. Imediately after we are given this free gift of salvation, it is inevitable to walk in a living faith and obedience to our Saviour. This is because we have a free will. This free will must cooperate with God’s Spirit that saved us through faith, otherwise it is rejecting the grace that was given to us in Jesus! And this would be worse than the state we were in before. So in this way, we know that our justification is not determined by one event. Our salvation and faith is constantly tested. Therefore, we must continually rely on God’s grace through a faith that is completed by co-operation of the eternal work of Christ.
This is a far better understanding of salvation and justification in context of Holy Scriptures and Apostolic teaching. “Faith alone” acknowledges the total grace of God in our salvation, but in an attempt to make a doctrine against the Apostolic teaching by the collective body of bishops in unison with the gospel, compromises the full understanding of our obligations to the will of our Father. Faith that relies completely and only on belief without co-operation of our will to do what our Father is demanding is nothing. It takes away the love to follow Him.
What our work in faith does do, is merit the promise of eternal life with our Saviour!
The denominations will not remove “alone” from their faith. But many members will actually live the faith and works doctrine. That is what we must be pleased with…that is, those who are genuine in the Lord.
Peace,
Michael
Our doctrine of Faith and Works is founded on language and teaching from scripture. St Jame’s epistle fully explains the neccessity of works, in the life of the Christian. Our gift of salvation is by God’s grace and made actual in our baptism. This is God’s forgivenes of ALL sin freely given. It is evident in our baptisms of even infants.
However, baptism does not garauntee eternal salvation, as in Once Saved Always Saved. Imediately after we are given this free gift of salvation, it is inevitable to walk in a living faith and obedience to our Saviour. This is because we have a free will. This free will must cooperate with God’s Spirit that saved us through faith, otherwise it is rejecting the grace that was given to us in Jesus! And this would be worse than the state we were in before. So in this way, we know that our justification is not determined by one event. Our salvation and faith is constantly tested. Therefore, we must continually rely on God’s grace through a faith that is completed by co-operation of the eternal work of Christ.
This is a far better understanding of salvation and justification in context of Holy Scriptures and Apostolic teaching. “Faith alone” acknowledges the total grace of God in our salvation, but in an attempt to make a doctrine against the Apostolic teaching by the collective body of bishops in unison with the gospel, compromises the full understanding of our obligations to the will of our Father. Faith that relies completely and only on belief without co-operation of our will to do what our Father is demanding is nothing. It takes away the love to follow Him.
Code:
Faith that relies on our works earning us the love of God is false and always has been rejected by the Catholic Church. Even if many bishops or the pope himself believed this, it is not what She officially taught...EVER! We do not follow what any bishop believes or practices. We follow what the collective bishops teach in unison together.The denominations will not remove “alone” from their faith. But many members will actually live the faith and works doctrine. That is what we must be pleased with
…that is, those who are genuine in the Lord.Peace,
Michael
J
Judas_Thaddeus
Guest
Amen, I totally agree to that (and everything rcwitness said). If I ever in this thread
made it seem otherwise, not my intention. Works is not about earning God’s love,
but responding to it rather. Like in the Parable of the Good Samaritan, where the
Samaritan found a man (beaten and robbed I think he was), and showed compas-
sion to him, unlike the priest and Levite prior.
One thing I observe in this parable is that the Samaritan wasn’t *looking *for
good works to do, but there came the random opportunity to be of help to
his neighbor. This is the kind of “works” God calls us to do, I believe, not
earning our way by looking for good works to prove ourselves worthy, but
to be, in a matter of speaking, Christ’s compassion to the world.
CORRECT ME ANYBODY IF I ERRED OR AM MISSING SOMETHING!
R
rcwitness
Guest
justforcatholics.org/benedict_justification.htm
This is a response to Pope Benedict attempting to bring understanding and union regarding faith and works vs faith alone.
We agree faith alone saves! We agree works are neccessary! Amen!
Benedict wished only to distinct that a faith that saves must not be opposed to charity! This was not enough for protestants!
If something is neccessary for salvation, it is part of what saves us. It does not mean It is why God decided to save us. There is a big difference.
James tells us that works complete faith! So faith without works is nothing!
Paul tells us if we have faith but not love, we are nothing!
Therefore, faith and works saves us…not faith alone!..not works alone…but faith and works together! For it is faith manifesting itself. It is no reason to boast. That was Paul’s point. These works are not from us, but from our Father, that we know in our hearts through faith.
Michael
J
Judas_Thaddeus
Guest
AWESOME !!!
M
MaryT777
Guest
:
Well said!
J
JRKH
Guest
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