Can we drop "alone" from faith and grace?

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benjohnson said:
In conversations like this, it’s also helpful to remember that Lutherans aren’t so much rebelling at modern (and ancient) Catholic teaching - we Lutherans are still fighting the 15th Century idea that works are necessary for salvation that was promulgated.

Hence, why we such sticklers for even the tiniest idea that works can justify.
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Great…

Can you show me where the Catholic Church teaches that works Justify?

I don’t mean to be argumentative…
But I’m not aware that the Church has ever taught that works justify (apart from faith of which works are essential evidence)

Peace
James
 
concretecamper said:
Ben said himself you can do good works without faith. He has already separated the two…I am just clarifying.

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What I mean is that their insistence of faith alone is what along with sola scriptura, primarily defines them, to give up on this position is to deny protestantism.
 
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IgnatianPhilo:
Quote:

Originally Posted by concretecamper

Ben said himself you can do good works without faith. He has already separated the two…I am just clarifying.

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What I mean is that their insistence of faith alone is what along with sola scriptura, primarily defines them, to give up on this position is to deny protestantism.
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yes…I did realize what you meant. I am sorry if my post came across abrupt.

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JRKH said:
Great…

Can you show me where the Catholic Church teaches that works Justify?

I don’t mean to be argumentative…
But I’m not aware that the Church has ever taught that works justify (apart from faith of which works are essential evidence)

Peace
James
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When a Catholic says faith and works justify, this Lutheran sees two equal things, connected by the word “and” as responsible for justification. We see justification as monergistic, the work of the Spirit in us. Good works, while of course the result of the Spirit continuing efforts in us, also includes our efforts. Our efforts in no way justify.
We are justified by grace through faith. These are a gift, not the result of our works.

Jon
 
=concretecamper;11058772]you quoted …“faith produces good works”. but as you pointed out, faith is not necessary for good works. so you can have one without the other…correct? so one can have faith but do ZERO good works…correct?
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E]/

If one is defining good as pleasing to God, it seems to me good works are those of the regenerate.

Jon
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In the end, Catholic foundation for all doctrine exists in the sacrifice of Jesus. This High Priestly sacrifice must be approached in our hearts.

The actual altar of this one sacrifice is at the Mass. This is where all good works of faith meet God. It is the Altar. We bring our works to God in faith that they are accepted as the “one work” of Jesus. The bread and wine are symbols of the work of our hands (wheat bread) and fellowship and joy (wine) which through the Spirit of God become eternal life.

You see, reconciliation is the first work of salvation. It is conversion of the heart and acted upon (Matthew 5:23,24). Jesus’ High Priestly sacrifice is the foundation and the first fruit of all men who wish to be reconciled to God. Nothing is accepted outside of this!

How is it, that anyone can go and listen to the Mass and not see this gospel???

Michael
 
JonNC said:
E]/

If one is defining good as pleasing to God, it seems to me good works are those of the regenerate.

Jon
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Good works cannot do anything in God’s eyes outside of faith, wheather save or regenerate.
 
JonNC said:
When a Catholic says faith and works justify, this Lutheran sees two equal things, connected by the word “and” as responsible for justification. We see justification as monergistic, the work of the Spirit in us. Good works, while of course the result of the Spirit continuing efforts in us, also includes our efforts. Our efforts in no way justify.
We are justified by grace through faith. These are a gift, not the result of our works.

Jon
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Yes - I can see where this would be confusing…But the confusion (it seems to me) comes from the fact that Luther redefined “Faith” away from that contained in the Greek “pistis” - which leans more towards “firm belief” and “conviction”.

Thus - as I said earlier - we wind up talking past one another.
When the Catholic says Faith (belief / conviction) and Works (actions resulting from that conviction) they are essentially saying the same thing that the Lutheran is saying with just the single (but redefined) word “Faith”

A very real danger in this…as I see it…is that if another protestant hears “faith alone” without having read Luther’s definition…they will likely think what most people think when they see or hear the English word “faith”.
That it means - belief, conviction, etc which is much closer to the actual term “pistis”. They then assume that “firm and trusting belief” Alone is all that is necessary and they don’t even look for works as being a necessary part of evidence.

Other errors can flow from this sort of thinking…

Peace
James
 
rcwitness said:
Good works cannot do anything in God’s eyes outside of faith, wheather save or regenerate.
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These kinds of statements disturb me somewhat…Not because I think that works have value without faith…but because I think it necessary to be careful how we evaluate what might or might not be grace working in someone…
If God is Love, and he who loves is born of God and knows God, (1 John 4:7-8) and Love (agape) is the underlying principle of of our faith (Mt 22:36-45, John 13:24-35) - more important and enduring than faith (1 Cor 13:1-13) - then it is just possible that the “unbeliever” who does works out of love may have grace working in him and, like the Greek altar to the unknown god…is worshiping that which he has simply not yet recognized…

Just a thought.

Peace
James
 
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JonNC said:
When a Catholic says faith and works justify, this Lutheran sees two equal things, connected by the word “and” as responsible for justification. We see justification as monergistic, the work of the Spirit in us. Good works, while of course the result of the Spirit continuing efforts in us, also includes our efforts. Our efforts in no way justify.
We are justified by grace through faith. These are a gift, not the result of our works.

Jon
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JRKH said:
These kinds of statements disturb me somewhat…Not because I think that works have value without faith…but because I think it necessary to be careful how we evaluate what might or might not be grace working in someone…
If God is Love, and he who loves is born of God and knows God, (1 John 4:7-8) and Love (agape) is the underlying principle of of our faith (Mt 22:36-45, John 13:24-35) - more important and enduring than faith (1 Cor 13:1-13) - then it is just possible that the “unbeliever” who does works out of love may have grace working in him and, like the Greek altar to the unknown god…is worshiping that which he has simply not yet
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I see,
But this statement was made in context. Good works are just that,…good. All that is good is from God. Its possible someone without faith can do something for someone in order to seek benefit for themselves (praise from peers). This would not be beneficial to themselves in God’s eyes, though the need may have been met which answered a prayer from God.

The very fact that they were given the opportunity to do a good work in faith was a gift from God, but they abused it for their gain.
 
rcwitness said:
I see,
But this statement was made in context. Good works are just that,…good. All that is good is from God.
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👍
And sometimes a person doesn’t even realize that God is their true motivation…
There can be many reasons for this.
Its possible someone without faith can do something for someone in order to seek benefit for themselves (praise from peers). This would not be beneficial to themselves in God’s eyes, though the need may have been met which answered a prayer from God.
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Yes - covered in the gospel…something done for earthly show or gain is rewarded here on earth and not in the hereafter.
The very fact that they were given the opportunity to do a good work in faith was a gift from God, but they abused it for their gain.
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Amen - God is constantly providing opportunities isn’t he…we only need respond.

Peace
James
 
JRKH said:
Yes - I can see where this would be confusing…But the confusion (it seems to me) comes from the fact that Luther redefined “Faith” away from that contained in the Greek “pistis” - which leans more towards “firm belief” and “conviction”.

Thus - as I said earlier - we wind up talking past one another.
When the Catholic says Faith (belief / conviction) and Works (actions resulting from that conviction) they are essentially saying the same thing that the Lutheran is saying with just the single (but redefined) word “Faith”

A very real danger in this…as I see it…is that if another protestant hears “faith alone” without having read Luther’s definition…they will likely think what most people think when they see or hear the English word “faith”.
That it means - belief, conviction, etc which is much closer to the actual term “pistis”. They then assume that “firm and trusting belief” Alone is all that is necessary and they don’t even look for works as being a necessary part of evidence.

Other errors can flow from this sort of thinking…

Peace
James
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James,
I don’t believe Luther would have e clouded the definition provided under pistis, firm conviction, trusting belief, etc. but we would say that faith is something the Spirit works in us. That’s why you read the first sentence as it is.
I don’t know what other communions might say.

Jon
 
JonNC said:
James,
I don’t believe Luther would have e clouded the definition provided under pistis, firm conviction, trusting belief, etc. but we would say that faith is something the Spirit works in us. That’s why you read the first sentence as it is.
I don’t know what other communions might say.

Jon
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I guess I wonder why he felt the need to redefine pistis…🤷
If he hadn’t, it would have still have meant firm belief and be a theological virtue and the work of the Spirit in us and our response to the Spirit and all the rest…
There would simply be less confusion…

Peace
James
 
JonNC said:
James,
I don’t believe Luther would have e clouded the definition provided under pistis, firm conviction, trusting belief, etc. but we would say that faith is something the Spirit works in us. That’s why you read the first sentence as it is.
I don’t know what other communions might say.

Jon
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Traditional Reformed communions would agree with you
 
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JonNC:
Quote:

Originally Posted by JRKH

Great…

Can you show me where the Catholic Church teaches that works Justify?

I don’t mean to be argumentative…
But I’m not aware that the Church has ever taught that works justify (apart from faith of which works are essential evidence)

Peace
James

When a Catholic says faith and works justify, this Lutheran sees two equal things, connected by the word “and” as responsible for justification. We see justification as monergistic, the work of the Spirit in us. Good works, while of course the result of the Spirit continuing efforts in us, also includes our efforts. Our efforts in no way justify.
We are justified by grace through faith. These are a gift, not the result of our works.

Jon
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Jon, the RCC does not teach grace or faith is a result of our works.
  1. Grace is a gift freely given by God to us which we do not merit. I am sure you agree with this?
  2. Faith is the “mental” response to that freely given gift of grace.
  3. Works is the “physical” response to grace.
So…can you agree that there are 2 response to grace (faith and works)?

Abraham is a perfect example. Even though he was justified in Genesis 15, God still required him to sacrifice his son (a “work”) which justified him in Genesis 22. If Abraham would not have added this work to his faith, he would have fallen out of favor with God. Thus, James says that Abraham was justified by his works.

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