Can We Fire the Pope?

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irishpatrick said:
No, I believe the Church always has to deal with spiritual attacks. I am simply wondering what the Pope is doing now that is contributing to this terrible attack.
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Why are you assuming that the Pope has done or is doing anything at all to contribute to it?

Christ did nothing, the early Christian martyrs did nothing, they were attacked all the same due to the irrational fear and hatred of their enemies. It was simply because they were different to themselves, not for anything that Christ or the early martyrs did.
 
Galnextdoor said:
The Huffington Post is technically not a real news source. I believe it calls itself a liberal, progressive commentary outlet. Basically it’s just an anti-conservative blog.
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My apologies! I really didn’t know! I apologize to anyone I offended by posting this article here on this forum.
 
LilyM said:
Why are you assuming that the Pope has done or is doing anything at all to contribute to it?

Christ did nothing, the early Christian martyrs did nothing, they were attacked all the same due to the irrational fear and hatred of their enemies. It was simply because they were different to themselves, not for anything that Christ or the early martyrs did.
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You misunderstand my point. I am wondering what actions the Pope is doing that has woken his spiritual enemies. In other words, what appointments, decisions, etc., is he making that has rasied the attention of those same spiritual enemies…?

We all know that Jesus rose the anger and frustrations of the Jewish leaders, yet He also raised a huge concern with satan, so satan attempted to take Jesus out at that time.

Have you ever noticed that when people turn back to God, they often undergo a difficult trial in the early days after their turn? They did a very good thing by turning back to God, and they often get attacked for doing so. I am wondering what good action our Pope is taking to receive such vile, unwarranted and unfair attacks at THIS specific time in history.
 
irishpatrick said:
You misunderstand my point. I am wondering what actions the Pope is doing that has woken his spiritual enemies. In other words, what appointments, decisions, etc., is he making that has rasied the attention of those same spiritual enemies…?

We all know that Jesus rose the anger and frustrations of the Jewish leaders, yet He also raised a huge concern with satan, so satan attempted to take Jesus out at that time.

Have you ever noticed that when people turn back to God, they often undergo a difficult trial in the early days after their turn? They did a very good thing by turning back to God, and they often get attacked for doing so. I am wondering what good action our Pope is taking to receive such vile, unwarranted and unfair attacks at THIS specific time in history.
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St Peter says in his Epistle that the devil is constantly ‘prowling around like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour’.

A hungry lion doesn’t need its victim to be ‘doing anything’ other than merely exist - the lion’s desire to devour is a product of its own hunger rather than of anything the victim does or doesn’t do.

And the devil’s hunger for souls, his hunger to destroy the body of Christ, and that of the enemies of the Church, always exists, is constant and unappeasable. He doesn’t become more or less active at different times in history, he is always actively seeking the destruction of the Church and the damnation of souls. No more or less now than at any other time.

So the Church and the Pope need do nothing special to arouse that hunger - not now, not at any other time. Like the innocent zebra or other prey that the lion targets, whether they are targeted depends on whether the predator is hungry (and the devil is ALWAYS hungry).
 
Depends on how combustible he is - mind you at his age those old bones will be quite dry so I suspect a well placed burning ember should see him go up with a “whoosh” like a powerful chinese fire cracker - the interesting thing will be to see if the resultant smoke ia white or black!!

pwl 😃

Lex Deo Semper
 
LilyM said:
St Peter says in his Epistle that the devil is constantly ‘prowling around like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour’.

A hungry lion doesn’t need its victim to be ‘doing anything’ other than merely exist - the lion’s desire to devour is a product of its own hunger rather than of anything the victim does or doesn’t do.

And the devil’s hunger for souls, his hunger to destroy the body of Christ, and that of the enemies of the Church, always exists, is constant and unappeasable. He doesn’t become more or less active at different times in history, he is always actively seeking the destruction of the Church and the damnation of souls. No more or less now than at any other time.

So the Church and the Pope need do nothing special to arouse that hunger - not now, not at any other time. Like the innocent zebra or other prey that the lion targets, whether they are targeted depends on whether the predator is hungry (and the devil is ALWAYS hungry).
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I disagree. 🙂

My question still stands. I wonder what this Pope is doing in this time that has brought such evil attacks. There is something unique with this specific time, different from any other in his Pontificate. The truth is, the devil does not attack friends, he rarely will trouble himself with attacking people who are lukewarm, and he has NOT attacked this Pope during his Pontificate as he is right now with this intensity.

I believe, though I cannot prove it, that this Pope is doing something that draws a special attack at this specific time. Just as Judas betrayed Christ at the exact right time in history, and just as evil often strikes the hardest when it sees an opening or when it sees that it is their only chance.

As I said before, there is a reason people are spiritually attacked right after they turn back to God when they are often still very weak.
 
I do not think that the Pope should “be fired”. However, I think that the Church would benefit with more decentralization- allowing priests and nuns more freedom. I believe that the administrative decisions of the leaders of the Church should be questioned more often and made more transparent.

The doctrine of infallibility (yes I know that it is a limited doctrine which has only been used a few times) is also wrong-headed. Considering the history of corruption in the Papacy (I am thinking particularly of the Medicis) and the imperfection of all men, I do not think any individual should be considered as infallible.
 
irishpatrick said:
I disagree. 🙂

My question still stands. I wonder what this Pope is doing in this time that has brought such evil attacks. There is something unique with this specific time, different from any other in his Pontificate. The truth is, the devil does not attack friends, he rarely will trouble himself with attacking people who are lukewarm, and he has NOT attacked this Pope during his Pontificate as he is right now with this intensity.

I believe, though I cannot prove it, that this Pope is doing something that draws a special attack at this specific time. Just as Judas betrayed Christ at the exact right time in history, and just as evil often strikes the hardest when it sees an opening or when it sees that it is their only chance.

As I said before, there is a reason people are spiritually attacked right after they turn back to God when they are often still very weak.
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Respectfully, I have to disagree with your disagreement.

By your logic Jesus was tempted in the desert because He was particularly weak or vulnerable in some way? Nope. He was not in the slightest weak or vulnerable, though He was physically hungry. He was tempted because He would’ve been the greatest prize the devil could ever gain, and the devil recognised His greatness.

We all go after big goals when we can, don’t we? Even those we aren’t especially likely to win? Take Job. Job was targeted because he was especially righteous, and thus a great prize for Satan to try for, not because he was especially likely to sin. On the contrary he was most unlikely by reason of his righteousness.

Same with those who have just turned back to God - they are souls who are particularly precious to Him, so they are great prizes for Satan to snatch from His hand too. As would the Pope be.

Saying the Devil only targets those who are weak or vulnerable in some way is as nonsensical as saying God only targets those souls who are particuarly ripe for salvation. Not so - He constantly calls ALL souls, and like the shepherd who particuarly searches for the lost sheep rather than the one that hasn’t strayed, often makes special efforts for those who most need them (and hence are least likely to benefit from them).

Remember the devil has his full share of pride - hence he keeps fighting God even though ultimately, like the rest of us, he knows God will triumph - his pride blinds him to the impossibility of prevailing against the powers of Heaven. So his blind pride tempts him to go even for targets that aren’t particularly vulnerable, as well as those that are.
 
This is the social dimension of sin. There is not enough proof out there to convince me or many people that Cardinal Ratzinger was directly responsible for the choices that were made in Germany and in the Fr. Murphy case.

In the Germany case the Vicar General of the diocese admitted that he had made the assignment and that he thought it was the right thing to do and there were no further problems with this particular priest until after the Cardinal had been transferred to the Vatican. In find it rather interesting that this priest commits his first offense or offenses in another diocese. He is sent to Munich for therapy and remains in Munich. While in Munich he behaves until after Cardinal Ratzinger has left. That appears to me to be someone who was intimidated by the Cardinal.

The Fr. Murphy case is misrepresented in this article. Fr. Murphy had confessed and been absolved. He had complied with his suspension of over 24-years. He did write the Cardinal asking to be allowed to die as a priest. Cardinal Bertone answered the letter, but never said that the case should be dropped. He suggested to the local bishop that he make the best pastoral decision. It was a useless letter, in the end. Fr. Murphy died two days after Cardinal Bertone’s letter arrived. Fr. Murphy was not dismissed because he died, not because Cardinal Ratzinger intervened.

All this being said in defense of the then Cardinal Ratzinger, we are seeing the social dimension of sin. As NewEnglandPriest said, “The Church gave the media the stick.” Unfortunately, those who committed the abuses and those who made all the administrative blunders, even with the best intentions, they were still blunders, are the reason why the Church is under attack. Unfortunately what happens when someone declares a war is that innocent people are caught in the middle. Now, not only is the Pope caught in the middle, but so are many innocent priests and religious.

No one is thinking that the aggressive plan that was put into place in the USA is working. Between 1950 to about 1990 we have stories of hundreds of abuses per year. From 2000 to 2010 we have had less than 20 cases in the entire country of 50 million Catholics (including children) and over 50,000 priests and religious. The demand in this article that the Church state the problem, what it’s going to do, and promise that this will never happen again is unrealistic. The Church has admitted that there is a serious problem. The media has actually helped the Church in this regard, because it made us face the issue. The Church has put an aggressive plan into action in the USA, which is working. I don’t know if this plan would work in another country. There were many experts involved in putting the current plan in place in the USA. But those folks understood the US culture and conditions. Maybe it would work someplace else or they need a tailor made plan for each country. As to the promise that this will never happen again, that’s not humanly possible. We cannot guarantee that no one will ever fly under the radar. We can promise to act on it. That’s a fair request and a promise that must be made in justice and charity.

Those are my two cents. Don’t spend them all in one store.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
This just goes to should that our common adversary is out to destroy our beloved Catholic Church. Sorry, Christ our Lord Himself said that neither the gates of hell can never destroy our Church. Let us stand tall, remain united and continue praying together as a community!
 
wisdomseeker said:
What is really behind of these attacks on the holy father and for what purpose?

does the liberals in the Church have anything to do with this also? it would be interesting to find out?
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I believe that this article could provide some answer as to why the Western media is attacking the Holy Father who represents our Church as the Head. Sad to say a good number people are belittling spirituality and religion. Read the article below.

zenit.org/article-28802?l=english
 
Ferds_Guiang said:
I believe that this article could provide some answer as to why the Western media is attacking the Holy Father who represents our Church as the Head. Sad to say a good number people are belittling spirituality and religion. Read the article below.

zenit.org/article-28802?l=english
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there are many factors, i believe, to discredit one Church, that One Truth. many who are also religious cannot accept the fact that must be One Truth. many who are religious who advocate to have things done their way and not God’s way.

progressivecatholicvoice.org/enewsletters/index_Oct07.html
 
csuliman said:
I do not think that the Pope should “be fired”. However, I think that the Church would benefit with more decentralization- allowing priests and nuns more freedom. I believe that the administrative decisions of the leaders of the Church should be questioned more often and made more transparent.

The doctrine of infallibility (yes I know that it is a limited doctrine which has only been used a few times) is also wrong-headed. Considering the history of corruption in the Papacy (I am thinking particularly of the Medicis) and the imperfection of all men, I do not think any individual should be considered as infallible.
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Making the Pope into a token-emperor and rejecting infallibility(the latter is heresy, by the way)? I am sorry, but absolutely not!
 
LilyM said:
Respectfully, I have to disagree with your disagreement.

By your logic Jesus was tempted in the desert because He was particularly weak or vulnerable in some way? Nope. He was not in the slightest weak or vulnerable, though He was physically hungry. He was tempted because He would’ve been the greatest prize the devil could ever gain, and the devil recognised His greatness.

==> I am not in any way saying the Pope is weak. The exact opposite actually. I feel our Holy Father is very strong. That is why he is being attacked much more strongly right now.

==> Now, in the Bible, we learn of three separate major times when Jesus was attacked by the devil. The first was when Jesus was born because the devil knew that it would to his great advantage to wipe out the Lord at that time. The second was when Jesus was tempted in the desert. The third was when Jesus had begun his Passion. Now, please, think it through. Other than those great events and times, we do not see the devil attacking our Lord at all. In fact, there are 28 years of Jesus’ life that we are blind to and in that time nothing happened that was important enough to our salvation for us to know about. Had there been a huge attack by the devil during those blind years, certainly we would have heard about those as well.

**==> What do those events have in common? They were all watershed times or events. Jesus’ birth was a watershed (or turning point), so was the beginning of His earthly ministry during which He was tempted in the desert, and so too was His Passion and Death. The devil attacked in the most harsh manner at those huge events…events that would change the world and would change our hope for salvation and Heaven. It was during those world altering moments that the Devil struck with depth.

==> There is little doubt that the devil attacked our Lord in any number of other smaller ways, yet it is simply Biblical and faith fact that those events were times during which our Lord was deeply tested and attacked.**

We all go after big goals when we can, don’t we? Even those we aren’t especially likely to win? Take Job. Job was targeted because he was especially righteous, and thus a great prize for Satan to try for, not because he was especially likely to sin. On the contrary he was most unlikely by reason of his righteousness.

**==> Job was attacked only because God allowed the attack in order to teach us to trust Him more fully. Yet, again, Job’s test was a watershed event in salvific history, before God allowed the devil to test Job, Job had lived a happy and untested life. It was only after God knew that He could use Job’s trial to teach us did God let the devil try to bring Job down. **

Same with those who have just turned back to God - they are souls who are particularly precious to Him, so they are great prizes for Satan to snatch from His hand too. As would the Pope be.

**==> No! Absolutely no! All souls are precious to God. You are, I am, we all are precious to God. He desires that none of us perish. In the story of the man who left his father and then wasted all of his wealth and had to return to his father, the returning son was not more precious than the other son. In that case it was an event worthy of celebrating because the son returned to the father, yet he was not more precious than the other son, because as the Bible says the other son was already enjoying everything his father had. **

Saying the Devil only targets those who are weak or vulnerable in some way is as nonsensical as saying God only targets those souls who are particuarly ripe for salvation. Not so - He constantly calls ALL souls, and like the shepherd who particuarly searches for the lost sheep rather than the one that hasn’t strayed, often makes special efforts for those who most need them (and hence are least likely to benefit from them).

**==> It is beyond any question or doubt that when people have been away from God, and then choose to turn back to God, they go through many trials and tests. That is simply a fact born-out millions and millions times. The reason for the attack is simple. The person who is turning to got is going to be a lost soul to the devil if the devil does not try to stop the turn. **

Continued on the next post…
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