Can We Get Catholics to Sing?

[tomas10]

Dear cat
One reason they have screen is bcause the songs are not in the missal. Like I stated these are baptist songs. I asked a choir member what was the source of the music being plaued. She said baptst contemporary radio.

 

[Wonderette]

Dear cat
One reason they have screen is bcause the songs are not in the missal. Like I stated these are baptist songs. I asked a choir member what was the source of the music being plaued. She said baptst contemporary radio.

I do not like projector screens in parishes. Thank goodness that that element has not been implemented in our parish. When missals are properly distributed in the pews, people may have more of an inclination to sing. Baptist songs do not belong in a Catholic Church, in my humble opinion.

 

[TrueLight]

Several people have said that the proper place for hymns is in the Divine Office.

I happen to have the iPhone App, so I get to hear some of the hymns. But what if someone doesn’t have such an app. How are they supposed to sing the hymns found in the Liturgy of the Hours?

Is the average Catholic expected to go online and look for the sheet music (assuming they read music), or find the song on YouTube?

That’s why it’s important that at least one hymn be sung on Sundays and I don’t mean the same “Regina Coeli” all the time.

That is one way Catholics can learn to sing.

 

[Phemie]

Several people have said that the proper place for hymns is in the Divine Office.

I happen to have the iPhone App, so I get to hear some of the hymns. But what if someone doesn’t have such an app. How are they supposed to sing the hymns found in the Liturgy of the Hours?

Is the average Catholic expected to go online and look for the sheet music (assuming they read music), or find the song on YouTube?

That’s why it’s important that at least one hymn be sung on Sundays and I don’t mean the same “Regina Coeli” all the time.

That is one way Catholics can learn to sing.

But the Mass doesn’t call for hymns, it calls for the Propers of the day.

You can stick a hymn as a recessional since at that point Mass is over. Most people don’t want to sing at that point, unless you pick a parish favourite. And once Fr. has left, people want to leave, not stick around to sing – so usually the choir opts to only sing two verses of a hymn resulting in the full message not being heard.

I’ve only ever been to one parish that did this part well. I don’t know if it was done deliberately, with thought going into it, or if their set-up just proved to be serendipitous. In that parish, the archdiocesan see, you picked up your hymnal from the rack as you came through the door. At the end of Mass, everyone, including the priest, processed out singing, hymnal in hand, and placed their book back in the rack. The hymn was finished long before everyone had had a chance to leave their pew and after the hymn the organist played until everyone was gone.

 

[Cat]

But the Mass doesn’t call for hymns, it calls for the Propers of the day.

You can stick a hymn as a recessional since at that point Mass is over. Most people don’t want to sing at that point, unless you pick a parish favourite. And once Fr. has left, people want to leave, not stick around to sing – so usually the choir opts to only sing two verses of a hymn resulting in the full message not being heard.

I’ve only ever been to one parish that did this part well. I don’t know if it was done deliberately, with thought going into it, or if their set-up just proved to be serendipitous. In that parish, the archdiocesan see, you picked up your hymnal from the rack as you came through the door. At the end of Mass, everyone, including the priest, processed out singing, hymnal in hand, and placed their book back in the rack. The hymn was finished long before everyone had had a chance to leave their pew and after the hymn the organist played until everyone was gone.

As far as I know, the OF Mass allows for hymns. The Propers of the Day are one option. Have you heard something different, that the “four hymn sandwich” is no longer an option for Masses?

And if the hymn is played and sung well, many Catholics WILL stick around and sing with all their hearts. Many times, I have played a good, solid hymn as the recessional hymn; e.g., Holy God We Praise Thy Name, or “How Great Thou Art,” and I have played ALL the verses (after letting the cantor know that I plan to do this), and many people in the congregation not only remain to sing heartily, but they come up to me afterwards to thank me for playing all the verses and wishing that we could do this more often.

I was in a Catholic church once for morning Mass, and after the Mass, a few dozen people gathered around the piano and started singing Christian songs, mainly contemporary praise. I asked what was going on, and the person told me that the people who like to sing stick around around Mass for a time of praise and singing together. I really loved this, and think it sounds like a good option to help Catholics who like to sing corporately. The pianist was really good, BTW.

I personally think it’s very sad that people, especially Christians, don’t want to sing together. What has happened to get us to this point?

Singing in the Mass isn’t something that “I” do, it’s something that “we” do. But if most of the people check out and refuse to participate because the song isn’t “perfect” enough for them, then we are left with just a few of us to carry the song.

Yes, where there are only two or three, Christ is there. But it sure sounds wimpy. What a pathetic situation, that Christians refuse to stick around long enough to enjoy singing together. How very very sad. No wonder we can’t accomplish much–if we can’t even sing together, then how are we going to defeat evil together? We can’t be trusted with small things like singing together, so why on earth would the Lord trust us with the bigger tasks?

It will be interesting if we are ever at a point in the U.S. where we are marched into arenas to be executed. In the ancient times, the Christians sang TOGETHER as they marched to their martyrdom. Do you suppose our tormentors will allow all the condemned Christians to listen to their iPods as they march in? That way, each of us can hear a song that we personally prefer right before we meet our Maker.

I think that we really have to pay more attention to this “I” mentality in the Mass and see it for what it is–self-centeredness. The corporate singing time isn’t our personal time to pray our personal prayers. It’s a time in the Mass where we work–yes, WORK–together to praise the Lord. We have the rest of the day to pray private prayers and sing songs privately that we like. But when the priest chooses to allow hymns in the Mass, we should ante up and do our part to make the hymn a worthy offering of praise to the Lord. If we don’t, we deprive other Christians of the joy of a corporate hymn.

Yes, I can sing hymns along with some app on an electronic device (which I don’t own, BTW). But that is not anything at all like singing with my brothers and sisters in Christ. It’s really rather pathetic to picture Catholics all by themselves singing along with some electronic thing. If I am living in a lighthouse far away from all people, then that is certainly a good option. But to be surrounded by Christians in our cities, and to choose to remain separated and alone when singing–that’s really really REALLY sad.

 

[Phemie]

As far as I know, the OF Mass allows for hymns. The Propers of the Day are one option. Have you heard something different, that the “four hymn sandwich” is no longer an option for Masses?

I’m sure that someone will go to Rome with a doubt (dubium) on this and Rome will clarify at some future date, but at this time the new GIRM is being interpreted as saying that chants must be used and the only reference ever to a hymn is the post-Communion reflection. I’m not sure I interpret it that way but that’s what is being promulgated on a lot of sites devoted to Liturgy. See what you think.

1. This chant is sung alternately by the choir and the people or similarly by a cantor and the people, or entirely by the people, or by the choir alone. In the Dioceses of the United States of America, there are four options for the Entrance Chant:
   (1) the antiphon from the Missal or the antiphon with its Psalm from the Graduale Romanum, as set to music there or in another setting;
   (2) the antiphon and Psalm of the Graduale Simplex for the liturgical time;
   (3) a chant from another collection of Psalms and antiphons, approved by the Conference of Bishops or the Diocesan Bishop, including Psalms arranged in responsorial or metrical forms;
   (4) another liturgical chant that is suited to the sacred action, the day, or the time of year, similarly approved by the Conference of Bishops or the Diocesan Bishop.

1. The procession bringing the gifts is accompanied by the Offertory Chant (cf. no. 37 b), which continues at least until the gifts have been placed on the altar. The norms on the manner of singing are the same as for the Entrance Chant (cf. no. 48). Singing may always accompany the rite at the Offertory, even when there is no procession with the gifts.

1. While the Priest is receiving the Sacrament, the Communion Chant is begun, its purpose being to express the spiritual union of the communicants by means of the unity of their voices, to show gladness of heart, and to bring out more clearly the “communitarian” character of the procession to receive the Eucharist. The singing is prolonged for as long as the Sacrament is being administered to the faithful.[73] However, if there is to be a** hymn **after Communion, the Communion Chant should be ended in a timely manner. Care should be taken that singers, too, can receive Communion with ease.
2. In the Dioceses of the United States of America, there are four options for singing at Communion:

(1) the antiphon from the Missal or the antiphon with its Psalm from the Graduale Romanum, as set to music there or in another musical setting;
(2) the antiphon with Psalm from the Graduale Simplex of the liturgical time;
(3) a chant from another collection of Psalms and antiphons, approved by the Conference of Bishops or the Diocesan Bishop, including Psalms arranged in responsorial or metrical forms;
(4) some other suitable liturgical chant (cf. no. 86) approved by the Conference of Bishops or the Diocesan Bishop. This is sung either by the choir alone or by the choir or a cantor with the people.

 

[Cat]

I’m sure that someone will go to Rome with a doubt (dubium) on this and Rome will clarify at some future date, but at this time the new GIRM is being interpreted as saying that chants must be used and the only reference ever to a hymn is the post-Communion reflection. I’m not sure I interpret it that way but that’s what is being promulgated on a lot of sites devoted to Liturgy. See what you think.

Well, well. How interesting.

Our current pastor is a “high-up” in the Catholic Church. He was recently up for some high post in the Church, but apparently the decision was made to select someone else for the position. I don’t know the nuts-and-bolts of Catholic Church politics or the various “titles” that the priests earn, but I know that this man is the recipient of many honors and accolades from Rome and from the Pope himself, as well as past popes.

In other words, I think it’s safe to say that he is a knowledgeable, conservative, and totally-orthodox priest.

He has made several corrections in the liturgy in our parish, including ending the reciting of the Alleluia during Daily Mass; if there is no singing of the Alleluia, then it is not done at all. This is what the GIRM says, and for all the years that I have attended my parish, the Alleluia has been recited, and no one has bothered to make the correction. But this pastor DID make the correction.

I admire him immensely and trust him.

He apparently has not come to the conclusion, nor has our bishop, who is even more esteemed, that the GIRM is calling for the elimination of the hymns at Mass.

I was in St. Louis recently, and as we know, the bishop down there is an admirable apostle. The new translation was in use at the parish that I attended, including the new Mass parts. And four hymns were sung.

So what are we to do?

When I see our music director, I will ask him straight out. Perhaps he is working towards eliminating the hymns and instituting all chant. We started doing the Sanctus as a chant this last week, and it was very rough. Between the fact that people don’t read music and people don’t sing out, I would say that it sounded kind of sickly. Hopefully it will sound a little stronger as the weeks go by. I can’t imagine an entire Mass like this. It will definitely test my submission. Maybe if we shipped in a local high school (private school, of course) choir to make it sound a little prettier.

One question–if indeed the “Era of Hymns” is ended in the Catholic Church, I may as well quit taking pipe organ lessons. I do not need lessons to be able to play a single line of chant. And parishes do not need to spend tens of thousands of dollars on pipe organs–they should just get a little Wurlitzer to play the chant line on while people are learning it. Does this make sense?

I think this sounds like yet another pronouncement that is simply too vague for parishes to interpret. I wish that the Catholic Church would be very specific about music in the Mass, and I wish they would make it very clear when there are music options and when there are no music options other than strict compliance. I actually wish that a “List of Accepted Hymns” would be published, so that people would stop arguing over whether “Gather Us In” is in or out of the Mass. And now, of course, I would like to see the sentence, “HYMNS ARE NO LONGER ALLOWED EVER AT ANY TIME UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES INCLUDING FEAST DAYS AND HOLIDAYS, IN THE MASS!”

THAT would make it very clear, wouldn’t it?

I wonder if this kind of gentle, vague wording in documents is a “European Way” that works well over in the Old Country, but absolutely doesn’t work here in the United States, the Home of the Free.

 

[Wonderette]

In my parish, hymns are not over. Things are just getting started! I can tell that the new Advent way is going to be a lot more singing. We are blessed to have a wonderful choir director.

 

[ciero]

Always cracks me up when someone (the OP0 who has been Catholic all of about 10 min. wants to come in and change the church.

Why hymns? To be more like to Prots?

Why not just accept the Catholic church for what it is…that includes Catholic culture, of which hymns are NOT a big part.

 

[liturgyluver]

Always cracks me up when someone (the OP0 who has been Catholic all of about 10 min. wants to come in and change the church.

Why hymns? To be more like to Prots?

Why not just accept the Catholic church for what it is…that includes Catholic culture, of which hymns are NOT a big part.

Not entirely true - hymns at low mass were standard in the UK, Netherlands and Germany prior to Vatican II. There are many catholic hymnals with beautiful hymns (not all written by catholics) from the 1930s and the 1950s.

What sadly happened is that Vatican II threw out the chants from high mass at the same time as the traditional hymns, and replaced them (not quite everywhere but almost) both with ghastly modern folksy hymns. You would not find these hymns in most protestant churches - they still generally use the traditional hymns that were ditched.

 

[Sarabande]

I think this sounds like yet another pronouncement that is simply too vague for parishes to interpret. I wish that the Catholic Church would be very specific about music in the Mass, and I wish they would make it very clear when there are music options and when there are no music options other than strict compliance. I actually wish that a “List of Accepted Hymns” would be published, so that people would stop arguing over whether “Gather Us In” is in or out of the Mass. And now, of course, I would like to see the sentence, “HYMNS ARE NO LONGER ALLOWED EVER AT ANY TIME UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES INCLUDING FEAST DAYS AND HOLIDAYS, IN THE MASS!”

THAT would make it very clear, wouldn’t it?
.

This is what so many of my colleagues and I have been saying for years… and long before I was born. The Church has been ambiguous with it’s wording on this in recent years, so that it leaves it open for too wide of interpretation and too many liberties… ie. “well, the song mentions “God” in it, so we can use it.” or “That song makes me feel so good spiritually. We’ll use it at mass” to priests allowing bridal couples use music that has a secular connotation (Wagner’s “Bridal Chorus” or blatant secular music (“Grow Old With Me”)… I’ve freelanced at a few parishes where the priests were very open about that.

That said, as I have mentioned in the past, this is nothing new. Every once in a while the Church will put a “smackdown” on the music being put out. There have been outright bans in the past. I personally think it would save church musicians a ton of headaches to just have everything spelled out for them as to what is and is not permitted for liturgy. It may make composers and writers have to use their brains and creativity a little more to write/compose music which will be more in line with the Church’s stance, but that’s ok. That’s what makes things more interesting and you can get better quality from it.

 

[ProVobis]

Always cracks me up when someone (the OP0 who has been Catholic all of about 10 min. wants to come in and change the church.

Why hymns? To be more like to Prots?

Why not just accept the Catholic church for what it is…that includes Catholic culture, of which hymns are NOT a big part.

Give or take maybe a few days on the OP but very true on all other points. Hymns sung at the top of everyone’s voice certainly aren’t part of any Catholic culture.

 

[Cat]

Always cracks me up when someone (the OP0 who has been Catholic all of about 10 min. wants to come in and change the church.

Why hymns? To be more like to Prots?

Why not just accept the Catholic church for what it is…that includes Catholic culture, of which hymns are NOT a big part.

There have been a lot of good Catholics throughout the centuries who wanted to come in and “change the Church.” St. Catherine of Siena comes to mind, and thank God they listened to her. St. Teresa of Avila also comes to mind, and again, thank God they listened to her.

I agree that it’s wrong to want to change what the Church teaches. But to change the traditions (small “t”) of the Church is not anything wrong or rebellious.

When I (and my husband) became Catholic, we agreed totally with all the teachings of the Church, and accepted these teachings, and the Authority of the Church because we believed and still believe that the Catholic Church is The Church that Jesus Christ founded.

But we did NOT agree to accept Catholic “culture.” If hymns “are not a big part” of the “typical Catholic life,” well, that’s fine for them and Godspeed and God Bless.

But not for THIS Catholic! I love hymns and I would be bitterly upset and disappointed and tearful if indeed, they were declared unacceptable for the Holy Mass. At this point, should that happen, I would probably attend a Mass with no music (our 6:30 A.M. Mass has no music), and enjoy the rich variety of Christian music in Protestant churches.

And you know something–I think a lot of fine, good, devout Catholics would go with me, because I don’t happen to agree that hymns “are not a big part” of Catholic culture. From what I have seen, many Catholics LOVE the hymns.

There is absolutely no Catholic dogma stating that hymns are unacceptable in the Mass. The conventions that are acceptable in the Liturgy of the Mass have changed many times over the centuries, and will likely change many times in the centuries to come.

 

[ciero]

There have been a lot of good Catholics throughout the centuries who wanted to come in and “change the Church.” St. Catherine of Siena comes to mind, and thank God they listened to her. St. Teresa of Avila also comes to mind, and again, thank God they listened to her.

I agree that it’s wrong to want to change what the Church teaches. But to change the traditions (small “t”) of the Church is not anything wrong or rebellious.

When I (and my husband) became Catholic, we agreed totally with all the teachings of the Church, and accepted these teachings, and the Authority of the Church because we believed and still believe that the Catholic Church is The Church that Jesus Christ founded.

But we did NOT agree to accept Catholic “culture.” If hymns “are not a big part” of the “typical Catholic life,” well, that’s fine for them and Godspeed and God Bless.

But not for THIS Catholic! I love hymns and I would be bitterly upset and disappointed and tearful if indeed, they were declared unacceptable for the Holy Mass. At this point, should that happen, I would probably attend a Mass with no music (our 6:30 A.M. Mass has no music), and enjoy the rich variety of Christian music in Protestant churches.

And you know something–I think a lot of fine, good, devout Catholics would go with me, because I don’t happen to agree that hymns “are not a big part” of Catholic culture. From what I have seen, many Catholics LOVE the hymns.

There is absolutely no Catholic dogma stating that hymns are unacceptable in the Mass. The conventions that are acceptable in the Liturgy of the Mass have changed many times over the centuries, and will likely change many times in the centuries to come.

As far as I am aware neither St Catherine or St Teresa were Prot converts to the Catholic faith wanting to bring Prot culture with them.

If you prefer going to a Prot church and singing their heretical hymns…more power to ya…I guess your not really Catholic. A LOT of those Prot hymns, even those now sung at Catholic Masses express a theology that is totaly incompatible with Catholic theology and dogma…but if you want to go sing it…bully for you!

 

[ProVobis]

From what I have seen, many Catholics LOVE the hymns.

So what’s the point of the thread?

 

[liturgyluver]

As far as I am aware neither St Catherine or St Teresa were Prot converts to the Catholic faith wanting to bring Prot culture with them.

If you prefer going to a Prot church and singing their heretical hymns…more power to ya…I guess your not really Catholic. A LOT of those Prot hymns, even those now sung at Catholic Masses express a theology that is totaly incompatible with Catholic theology and dogma…but if you want to go sing it…bully for you!

Are these some of the heretical protestant hymns?:

Lo He comes with clouds descending
In the Bleak midwinter
O little town of Bethlehem
Once in Royal David’s City
What Child is this?
Faithful Vigil ended
My song is love unknown
When I survey the wondorous Cross
Sing we of the Blessed Mother
Who are these like stars appearing?
The day thou gavest
Alleluia Sing to Jesus
Deck thyself my soul with gladness
Lord Jesus think on me
Lord enthroned in heavenly splendour
O thou who at the Eucharist did pray
Abide with me
All people that on earth do dwell
Angel voices ever singing
Come ye faithful raise the anthem
How sweet the name of Jesus sounds
I heard the voice of Jesus say
King of Glory, King of Peace
Christ Triumphant ever reigning
Tell Out My Soul

All written by protestants, but included in Catholic hymnals. The tragedy is that these beautiful hymns are still sung in protestant churches wheras most catholic churches have set them aside for modern liturgical vacuous hymns many written by Catholics.

 

[ProVobis]

Not entirely true - hymns at low mass were standard in the UK, Netherlands and Germany prior to Vatican II. There are many catholic hymnals with beautiful hymns (not all written by catholics) from the 1930s and the 1950s.

Probably true to some extent. But during that time many of these “hymns” were also of patriotic or national nature, with little or no theological value. But I’m just going with the recollection I have of the Polish-sermoned Masses my parents used to take me to.

 

[ciero]

Are these some of the heretical protestant hymns?:

Lo He comes with clouds descending
In the Bleak midwinter
O little town of Bethlehem
Once in Royal David’s City
What Child is this?
Faithful Vigil ended
My song is love unknown
When I survey the wondorous Cross
Sing we of the Blessed Mother
Who are these like stars appearing?
The day thou gavest
Alleluia Sing to Jesus
Deck thyself my soul with gladness
Lord Jesus think on me
Lord enthroned in heavenly splendour
O thou who at the Eucharist did pray
Abide with me
All people that on earth do dwell
Angel voices ever singing
Come ye faithful raise the anthem
How sweet the name of Jesus sounds
I heard the voice of Jesus say
King of Glory, King of Peace
Christ Triumphant ever reigning
Tell Out My Soul

All written by protestants, but included in Catholic hymnals. The tragedy is that these beautiful hymns are still sung in protestant churches wheras most catholic churches have set them aside for modern liturgical vacuous hymns many written by Catholics.

My problem is with former Protestants wanting to bring their Protestant culture along with them into the Catholic Church instead of accepting the church for what she is and accepting Catholic culture. Hymn singing has never been a big part of Catholic culture. That doesn’t mean we don’t sing hymns…just that hymn singing has not been what it is among the Protestants.

Ever think about WHY hymn singing is so much a part of Protestant culture?

 

[liturgyluver]

My problem is with former Protestants wanting to bring their Protestant culture along with them into the Catholic Church instead of accepting the church for what she is and accepting Catholic culture. Hymn singing has never been a big part of Catholic culture. That doesn’t mean we don’t sing hymns…just that hymn singing has not been what it is among the Protestants.

That’s a fair point which I respect. But I also accept what Cat said about many Catholics enjoying hymns, but feeling frustrated by the absence of solemn chants and the introduction of modern music which has filled this vacuum. There are also others who prefer a quiet said mass. There are a few Catholic parishes that have managed to offer all of the above without detriment to core liturgy, and this is really important - I think it takes both skill and patience.

What’s intersting about protestant hymn singing is that varies considerably among the denominations: some of the more puritanical ones refuse to do anything but chant the psalms, others will only sing hymns that have direct biblical references (often the reformed churches) whilst Anglican and Lutherans were much more relaxed. But interestingly the Anglican choral tradition developed slowly and hymnals did not come to be used widely until the late 19th century.

 

[Cat]

My problem is with former Protestants wanting to bring their Protestant culture along with them into the Catholic Church instead of accepting the church for what she is and accepting Catholic culture. Hymn singing has never been a big part of Catholic culture. That doesn’t mean we don’t sing hymns…just that hymn singing has not been what it is among the Protestants.

Ever think about WHY hymn singing is so much a part of Protestant culture?

Why? Tell us.

BTW, may I please request clarification? FIrst, are you a convert to Catholicism from Protestantism? Second, what experience or knowledge do you have of Protestantism, and could you please be specific about which branch(es) of Protestantism that you have experience/knowledge of? Thank you for clarifying.

I took a look at the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It seems to contradict your statement that “hymn singing has never been a big part of Catholic culture.” Paragraphs 1156, 1157, and 1158 seem to state that music, including hymns and cultural hymns, are a very important part of the liturgy.

Here is a very inspiring quote from P1157 (from St. Augustine)–" How I wept, deeply moved by your hymns, songs, and the voices that echoed through your Church! What emotion I experienced in them! Those sounds flowed into my ears, distilling the truth in my heart. A feeling of devotion surged within me, and tears streamed down my face–tears that did me good."

St. Augustine (4th Century) lived long before Pope Gregory created the Gregorian chant (6th Century), so this quote is referring to…well, it specifically uses the words “hymns” and “songs.”

It kind of sounds to me like hymns have been a part of Catholic culture since the very beginning of the Church.

In fact, after He established the Eucharist at His Last Supper, Jesus joined with the disciples in singing the traditional “hymn.” (Matthew 26: 30).

One of the things that I did after becoming Catholic was to borrow from our parish school a history of music in the Catholic Church. It’s been seven years since I read it, so I don’t remember many details (I would fail a pop quiz right now). But I did not get the impression that “hymns” have never been part of Catholic culture. Quite the contrary. After reading the history, I was quite excited about music in the Mass and thrilled to get involved.

And yes, I’m really Catholic, not because I participate in Catholic “culture,” but because my bishop confirmed me as Catholic and because I sincerely believe to the best of my human ability all that the Catholic Church teaches. From what I understand in the Catechism, the Catholic Church welcomes people from ALL cultures, include Protestant cultures. In fact, Protestants are actually called “separated brothers and sisters in Christ.”