Can We Get Catholics to Sing?

[Crumpy]

A short fictional story.



I believe that we are all called to participate fully in the Mass. While most of this is in the form of quiet contemplation, prayer, and being attentive and focused on what is going on and what is being said, shouldn’t it also mean singing loud and joyfully at the proper times?

Psalm 100?

I’d like to keep the conversation civil here, starting with me. I think that “listening” is a way of participation. If people aren’t listening --too-- then they’re not “fully” participating.

I like singing, but I don’t like all the hymns. It’s been said here many times. I don’t like children’s songs for Mass on Sunday.

Totally agree – the musical key is too high for many people. I’ve heard the choir straining some times, too. The sopranos can’t hit some of the high notes. We don’t have to have Protestant hymns, but what’s wrong with a lot of protestant hymns? Sure – go out there and check the doctrinal issues in some of the songs and fix them.

I shop the antique stores and look for those old, worn-out protestant hymnals.

I think the issue underlying this thread is that the hymns at Mass are too utilitarian. There’s no unrestrained use of music for its own sake – seldom at Mass. It always comes across to me as just a time killer during communion.

And, let’s face it. Most Catholics have that one-hour time limit ticking in their heads during Mass. Theologically, God is still present in the tabernacle after Mass, but nobody wants to sing that third or fourth verse of the recessional hymn.

We Catholics need a full-blown musical liturgy alternative for the Mass.

And, a little off the topic, I think that the Eucharist should exposed in the monstrance after the Consecration until the start of communion. What a missed opportunity we have every Mass for divine adoration.

 

[Zacdecat]

Someone often just starts a processional hymn and everyone just joins in, the priest will sometimes start one at the end…a capella. Sundays are different…having the choir and the organist.

 

[Phemie]

Someone often just starts a processional hymn and everyone just joins in, the priest will sometimes start one at the end…a capella. Sundays are different…having the choir and the organist.

At the Saturday evening Mass we have no choir nor music. If someone picks a traditional hymn like “Praise to the Lord, the Almighty” for the entrance procession almost everyone joins in. Pick one like 'Gather Us In" and the person who starts it ends up being the only (or one of two or three) singing.

 

[quilisma]

See, although I personally don’t care how bad a voice is and would be pleased if they sang, I also don’t believe it was right for the priest to glower at you and force you to sing. No one should be forced to sing. I absolutely love singing, it’s what I do for my profession, but I would never make someone sing if they didn’t want to. There are times when I don’t feel like singing and get more out of the music spiritually-speaking as a listener and even looking at the music. I don’t find anything wrong with that.

I agree wholeheartedly! St. Paul says in 1st Corinthians:

[28] And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, then healers, helpers, administrators, speakers in various kinds of tongues.
[29] Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles?
[30] Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?

It might be added, Do all sing?

We are all members of the one body, whether or not we were individually given the gift of song. There are many gifts but one Spirit. God does not try to force us all to glorify Him in the exact same way. If your way of giving Him glory is to sing, great – don’t worry about how it sounds. If not, don’t sweat it! Give Him glory the way your gifts determine is the best way for YOU to give Him glory.

Just my personal opinion…

 

[Louis_Ruwet]

I came back into the Church after surrendering my life to Christ in a Baptist church. These people helped me to read and understand the Bible and later showed me how to enjoy praise music by having a"praise group" lead in singing with a loud speaker system so I could blast away with no inibitions. I miss this and the contemporary songs, but the Eucharist trumps everthing. I will contiue to sing loud and out of key and may be they will get tired of it and get some loud speakers and a good praise group to drown me out. Praise God! Lou

 

[Warrenton]

"

If it’s good for Pope John Paul II to be clapping and glorifying and praising God in Mass, then it’s good enough for ALL of us.

 

[Edmundus1581]

Singability. Modern hymns don’t have it. Generally the range is obscenely wide and pitched too high for most–that and the tunes are rendered in odd jumps and the rhythm is jerky. And there is no breath-space engineered in.

Plus our culture disdains singing with mockery of singers freely vented in the vein of “Don’t quit your day job” etc. Most don’t realize that the human voice has little in common with the electronically fattened voices heard in commercial song. Holy Angels, bring us to express ourselves fully in song all for God’s honor and glory. AMEN

Thanks for the explanation from a musical perspective! I am a tenor and can reach the pitch of the high songs, but I often find myself the only male singing. It’s quite embarassing, but I am left with the only alternative is to not sing, when I am capable of it. Even so, there are several songs where I am singing along and then the pitch jumps too high or too low for me! The rythms are also tricky, with lots of syncopations and delayed starts to lines. I’ll find myself singing the first words of the next line, only to hear the choir come in on later beat. It makes me want to just give up, and join the silent majority.

I have also heard that men, in general, often have difficulty finding a pitch. We can hear it, but not hit it with our voice. If we want men to sing we have to make it easy for them. Familiar tunes, strong melodies, comforable ranges, simple rythms. ie. the opposite of much modern church music.

 

[Edmundus1581]

I came back into the Church after surrendering my life to Christ in a Baptist church. These people helped me to read and understand the Bible and later showed me how to enjoy praise music by having a"praise group" lead in singing with a loud speaker system so I could blast away with no inibitions. I miss this and the contemporary songs, but the Eucharist trumps everthing. I will contiue to sing loud and out of key and may be they will get tired of it and get some loud speakers and a good praise group to drown me out. Praise God! Lou

:extrahappy:

Good for you! We need whole congregations of people like you! I am so tired of parishes where the men (in particular) don’t sing because they are afraid of not being good enough! Still, I can understand, and I think that’s more the fault of the environment and the song selection, than the men. I expect that you may get tired of being the brave one eventually.

 

[JHow]

…“Taste and See” makes me want to cry…

Um, do you mean that in a good way? Like “Danny Boy” at a funeral?

 

[Warrenton]

Um, do you mean that in a good way? Like “Danny Boy” at a funeral?

More like Alfred, Lord Tennyson’s “tears, idle tears.”:sad_bye:

 

[Phemie]

Um, do you mean that in a good way? Like “Danny Boy” at a funeral?

No, in a bad way, like “Danny Boy” at a funeral.

 

[Sarabande]

No, in a bad way, like “Danny Boy” at a funeral.

Yes, I was just thinking, “Danny Boy” should not be played at a funeral mass. It’s a secular song. Many priests don’t permit it, and boy, does it sometimes cause a problem when they do stand their ground with the family. Once in a while the priests will give in or will permit it played as an instrumental before mass, but most of the time they won’t allow it. Although I attended a funeral once where the hymnal at the church set religious text to the “Danny Boy” melody.

 

[TrueLight]

Although I attended a funeral once where the hymnal at the church set religious text to the “Danny Boy” melody.

Yes, like this well known setting.

It’s a beautiful song based on 1 Corinthians 13. Translation below:

If I spoke the most perfect language,
If even an angel lent me his,
Me that this would be trivial advantage?
If I do not love, I am nothing!
I am only sounding brass,
A cymbal to the beat repeated
While still lacking the graces that God gives,
If I have not the heart, Love, Charity.

And when I have the gift of prophecy,
When all my secret would be revealed,
When I get to knowledge engineering,
When I should, martyr, being burned,
Or if my faith was carrying the mountain
And my Pité distributing my wealth,
Some merit in that I make
Without that love me all be useless.

Charity is patient,
And caring towards the next
Is not jealous and not only boasts,
Not puffed up with pride, does not disdain.
Full of respects, does not harm anyone,
Selfishness is at home aside,
Point be angry and never suspected,
Condemn the injustice and wants the truth.

What gentleness and peace it brings,
Because it bears all things, believes all things,
All hopes and everything it supports,
Balm and putting his fragrance everywhere.
The best gifts are disappearing and dying,
This virtue lives in eternity,
Faith, Hope and Charity remain,
But of these three is the largest charity.

 

[Sarabande]

Yes, like this well known setting.

It’s a beautiful song based on 1 Corinthians 13. Translation below:

If I spoke the most perfect language,
If even an angel lent me his,
Me that this would be trivial advantage?
If I do not love, I am nothing!
I am only sounding brass,
A cymbal to the beat repeated
While still lacking the graces that God gives,
If I have not the heart, Love, Charity.

And when I have the gift of prophecy,
When all my secret would be revealed,
When I get to knowledge engineering,
When I should, martyr, being burned,
Or if my faith was carrying the mountain
And my Pité distributing my wealth,
Some merit in that I make
Without that love me all be useless.

Charity is patient,
And caring towards the next
Is not jealous and not only boasts,
Not puffed up with pride, does not disdain.
Full of respects, does not harm anyone,
Selfishness is at home aside,
Point be angry and never suspected,
Condemn the injustice and wants the truth.

What gentleness and peace it brings,
Because it bears all things, believes all things,
All hopes and everything it supports,
Balm and putting his fragrance everywhere.
The best gifts are disappearing and dying,
This virtue lives in eternity,
Faith, Hope and Charity remain,
But of these three is the largest charity.

The text is lovely here, but I’m pretty sure it wasn’t this text. Thank you for sharing it.

 

[liturgyluver]

I am watching the royal wedding and I am amazed at how everyone sings the hymns. No matter how religious they are or not, it is in the Church of England culture to sing apparently.

Is there anyway to get hymns sung on a regular basis at masses? Or is that considered a Protestant thing?

I know Anglican Use masses exist. Does anyone attend a Roman Catholic Parish that sings?

It is true (in the UK at least) that Anglicans love to sing, generally they are much more comfortable with the traditional hymns and mass settings and this is what one finds in those churches. Perhaps less common are the alleluia and memorial acclamations. Singing is an integral part of the liturgy and copies of the music are provided for the congregation.

The opposite is true in the English catholic church (apart from some of the magnet central London places). The hymns chosen tend to be much more recent and folksy, but even when traditional hymns are selected there seems to be a reluctance - almost an embarrassment- to sing. In a congregation of 200 plus, it seems like only 10% are singing, and if it’s a recessional hymn almost everyone is out the door before the hymn has ended!! There are systematic steps being taken to try to over come this by providing music leaders (and parish priests) with better resources to encourage congregational singing. My friend told me that a couple of weeks ago the parish priest said at the end of the hymn - “Right, we’ll play that one again and this time I want everyone to sing.” I do hope things improve as good corporate singing enhances the liturgy no end.

I have noticed too in Spain and Italy, the music and hymns are dire, but congregations do generally at least sing the responses.

 

[TrueLight]

My friend told me that a couple of weeks ago the parish priest said at the end of the hymn - “Right, we’ll play that one again and this time I want everyone to sing.”

Ha ha. That is hilarious!

 

[Sarabande]

It is true (in the UK at least) that Anglicans love to sing, generally they are much more comfortable with the traditional hymns and mass settings and this is what one finds in those churches. Perhaps less common are the alleluia and memorial acclamations. Singing is an integral part of the liturgy and copies of the music are provided for the congregation.

The opposite is true in the English catholic church (apart from some of the magnet central London places). The hymns chosen tend to be much more recent and folksy, but even when traditional hymns are selected there seems to be a reluctance - almost an embarrassment- to sing. In a congregation of 200 plus, it seems like only 10% are singing, and if it’s a recessional hymn almost everyone is out the door before the hymn has ended!! There are systematic steps being taken to try to over come this by providing music leaders (and parish priests) with better resources to encourage congregational singing. My friend told me that a couple of weeks ago the parish priest said at the end of the hymn - “Right, we’ll play that one again and this time I want everyone to sing.” I do hope things improve as good corporate singing enhances the liturgy no end.

I have noticed too in Spain and Italy, the music and hymns are dire, but congregations do generally at least sing the responses.

I cantored a wedding recently where the priest made everyone sing the “Alleluia” again. Although I do sing, if it were me in the pews, it would just turn me off from singing. I don’t believe in forcing people to sing. When you make them do it again, it treats them like school children. Plus, half the people at the wedding weren’t even Catholic since the groom’s family was Protestant and he was a convert.

I think you are right in regards to the Catholic churches in the London areas. When I studied there and came back to visit a few times, I attended mass in London at a few different parishes just to get a feel of what was going on in the Catholic churches over there. The music was gorgeous, the choirs were good and people sang. It’s what changed my whole outlook on music at mass when I came back to the States. I realized that if parishes over there were doing polyphony and other gorgeous sacred music, we could do it over there. I’m sad to hear that they’ve gone folksy in other parts of the country.

Amazing how many of the churches in your country has the same problem of people bolting out the doors before the recessional is over. It seems to be a world-wide Catholic problem?

When I studied in Salzburg back in 2004, I attended mass at three or four different churches on any given Sunday to also experience how Austrians (at least in Salzburg) celebrated mass. All the masses were packed, they sang and the music… whether or not it was a choir singing a Mozart mass or Haydn mass or just traditional hymns was beautiful. Musicianship was also very good for the most part. I did find an “underground” mass in the small basement chapel of one parish to which it seemed the parish relegated a guitar mass, while a larger mass was done in the main church. It was also filled and people sang, but the musicianship was poor to mediocre, with just loud strumming and the music was much like what you’d hear at a typical American parish that did that kind of music. I remember a German classmate saying to me, “Of all the things that they could have taken from the Americans, why something so mediocre and poorly done?” Granted we were all conservatory students, so our standard of music quality was higher than most, but when you are surrounded by churches that work to holding that standard, even the small ones, and you come across that one hidden away mass, it was a little strange to experience. It wouldn’t have been strange or jarring here in the US because that’s what is expected, but there, it was.

I’ve only been to Italy twice for extended periods, first for study/performing and then for mainly performing. I found that the churches tend to not be full and the congregational singing is less than stellar. The last time I was there, which was just a couple of months ago, the masses were so short (20 minutes long) and practically empty. Of course, it was the summer, which could be different from the rest of the year. I was told that the use of the organ over there in most areas has never been popular…even when it was the main instrument of choice and no other instruments were used in years past. Although, I never attended a mass over there with any other instrument, but the organ or just the voices by themselves. I would imagine mass in Rome would be different, but I was always in smaller towns when I was there. That said, if I was to base the level of mass attendance from my two stays there, I’d say they were the worst attended out of all the churches I attended for mass over in Europe and the worst in terms of music participation.

 

[liturgyluver]

IWhen I studied in Salzburg back in 2004, I attended mass at three or four different churches on any given Sunday to also experience how Austrians (at least in Salzburg) celebrated mass. All the masses were packed, they sang and the music… whether or not it was a choir singing a Mozart mass or Haydn mass or just traditional hymns was beautiful. Musicianship was also very good for the most part. I did find an “underground” mass in the small basement chapel of one parish to which it seemed the parish relegated a guitar mass, while a larger mass was done in the main church. It was also filled and people sang, but the musicianship was poor to mediocre, with just loud strumming and the music was much like what you’d hear at a typical American parish that did that kind of music. I remember a German classmate saying to me, “Of all the things that they could have taken from the Americans, why something so mediocre and poorly done?” Granted we were all conservatory students, so our standard of music quality was higher than most, but when you are surrounded by churches that work to holding that standard, even the small ones, and you come across that one hidden away mass, it was a little strange to experience. It wouldn’t have been strange or jarring here in the US because that’s what is expected, but there, it was.

I’ve only been to Italy twice for extended periods, first for study/performing and then for mainly performing. I found that the churches tend to not be full and the congregational singing is less than stellar. The last time I was there, which was just a couple of months ago, the masses were so short (20 minutes long) and practically empty. Of course, it was the summer, which could be different from the rest of the year. I was told that the use of the organ over there in most areas has never been popular…even when it was the main instrument of choice and no other instruments were used in years past. Although, I never attended a mass over there with any other instrument, but the organ or just the voices by themselves. I would imagine mass in Rome would be different, but I was always in smaller towns when I was there. That said, if I was to base the level of mass attendance from my two stays there, I’d say they were the worst attended out of all the churches I attended for mass over in Europe and the worst in terms of music participation.

I agree with you about the Salzburg churches - sublime music and great lay participation, though I must admit I pretty much stayed with the main cathedral and church when I was there. I have attended mass at Rome , where the numbers were bigger than other Italian cities, but I must tell you the Vatican choir were absolutely awful. It was not a complicated mass setting, but it was very badly executed. Some Italian churches have beautiful organs but they just sit there - redundant - which is such a shame - there is no concept of carol services like we have for Advent, Christmas and Epiphany.

 

[Warrenton]

ISome Italian churches have beautiful organs but they just sit there - redundant - which is such a shame - there is no concept of carol services like we have for Advent, Christmas and Epiphany.

I guess I’ll just come out and say it - I don’t want to sing that much. A few well known hymns, like Tantum Ergo, are great. Otherwise, I want the choir to do the singing. I’ll pray.

 

[ProVobis]

I guess I’ll just come out and say it - I don’t want to sing that much. A few well known hymns, like Tantum Ergo, are great. Otherwise, I want the choir to do the singing. I’ll pray.

I think I’ll join you. Especially after hearing we can’t sing the Protestant hymns as well as the Protestants.