Can We Get Catholics to Sing?

[TrueLight]

A royal wedding is not the same as the sacrifice of our Lord and Saviour, which is the focus of the Mass. I tend to dislike most non-traditional music during mass, because our likes and dislikes have more to do with the popular culture that we are used to, sentimentalism and our own egos than it really does participating at mass. The Mass is an opportunity to separate ourselves from those influences and leave them at the door instead of dragging them into mass with us. Being present with the Lord is “participating,” you don’t have to do anything except be there.

Well it’s true that the Royal Wedding is not the same as the sacrifice of the mass. However, I don’t think your way of viewing singing is correct.

Praising God with Psalms, hymns and spiritual songs is not being sentimental. Nor is not singing a sign of holiness.

26 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.”

27 Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the[a] covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29 I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”

30 **When they had sung a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives. **

Oh by the way, I have come a long way since I started this thread 6 months ago. I still feel we can sing more.

 

[Cat]

I’m an urban “boomer”, and “Eagle’s Wings” and songs like it are definitely not my favorites to sing. I usually check the copyright date(s) on the sheet music (I’m in the choir), and I get excited whenever I see something from the 1800s or earlier.

As far as getting Catholics to sing more, I think we need to get the children used to singing. When they grow up, singing will then come naturally to them

I definitely agree with this, but it seems that once the children get older, they stop singing at Mass. I’ve played for our parish children’s choir for seven years now, and I’ve seen this happen, and it breaks my heart. When the adults do not sing, the children see no reason to sing. ADULTS have to set a good example for the children in the congregation.

Also, we need to use music pitched to where the average voice can reach it. When I hear a cantor struggling to hit high notes, I know there’s not much hope of the congregation joining in.

I did a study several years ago, when we first joined the Catholic Church. My research demonstrated that the OLDER hymns are more likely to have notes above high C than the contemporary hymns.

But for the most part, the hymns in any hymnal are NOT in a key that is too high for the average person who has been taught how to sing correctly. (Children used to be taught to sing correctly in their music classes at school, but this has been hit-and-miss for several decades now, as music education budgets have been slashed in many school districts.)

I had a discussion about hymnody just last week with my organ teacher, who has a Master’s Degree in music theory and knows all about hymnals and music literature and history. He agreed with my conclusion and explained that hymns seldom have a range above the D above high C, which is the ALTO (low voice) range.

No, we should not set all the hymns lower, because this will cause them to sound growly and muted.

Instead, people should learn how to sing correctly. When people sing correctly, they should be able to sing pretty much any song in the hymnal without any discomfort and with a minimum of squeakiness.

I realize that most people don’t and won’t spend the time and money on voice lessons. But most people can and should make an appointment with their parish choir director or parish school music teacher, and ask to be taught a few simple techniques that would help them to sing in a wider range.

I personally think that parishes should offer singing classes on a regular basis, not something long-term, but perhaps a 3-4 week session with classes lasting around an hour.

The same goes for songs overloaded with way too much syncopation. There are a couple we sing (unfortunately) that have so much syncopation that it sounds like non-stop hiccuping. Who would want to sing along with that?

Same answer for this . Learn.

I’m not accusing you of this, but I’ve seen plenty of other people who complain about syncopation being “too hard,” but they seem to think that people will have no trouble whatsoever learning to sing in Latin and to read the chant neumes.

I’ll make a deal with all of you–I’ll try to learn chant neumes when you learn how to count syncopation and how to sing correctly in order to manage those higher notes! I guarantee that you’ll have an easier time of it, and you will use the singing techniques to make your chanting better and easier, too. Good deal for you.

 

[Phemie]

I totally disagree with everything you have said here except that the Royal Wedding is not the sacrifice of the mass.

Praising God with Psalms, hymns and spiritual songs is not being sentimental. Nor is not singing a sign of holiness.

Oh by the way, I have come a long way since I started this thread 6 months ago. I still feel we can sing more.

OTOH, the Church herself, only requires the congregation to sing the responses – and, in fact, according to Musicam Sacram singing the dialog (The Lord be with you. And also with you.) is more important than singing the Gloria. The hymns, be they at the entrance, offertory or Communion, and the Gloria may all legitimately be sung by the choir alone.

 

[TrueLight]

OTOH, the Church herself, only requires the congregation to sing the responses – and, in fact, according to Musicam Sacram singing the dialog (The Lord be with you. And also with you.) is more important than singing the Gloria. The hymns, be they at the entrance, offertory or Communion, and the Gloria may all legitimately be sung by the choir alone.

Amen.

By the way, I did revise my comment somewhat because I do agree with some of the things the poster said, but not in regards to the singing.

 

[valient_Lucy]

I am watching the royal wedding and I am amazed at how everyone sings the hymns. No matter how religious they are or not, it is in the Church of England culture to sing apparently.

Is there anyway to get hymns sung on a regular basis at masses? Or is that considered a Protestant thing?

I know Anglican Use masses exist. Does anyone attend a Roman Catholic Parish that sings?

Hell is where Catholics sing and Protestants dance.

 

[Eugenius]

Well it’s true that the Royal Wedding is not the same as the sacrifice of the mass. However, I don’t think your way of viewing singing is correct.

Praising God with Psalms, hymns and spiritual songs is not being sentimental. Nor is not singing a sign of holiness.

You are misrepresenting what I said. I did not say that Praising God with Psalms, hymns and spiritual songs was sentimental. I said that sentimentalism influences our likes and dislikes. Nor did I say that not singing was more holy. The music should support what is going on in the liturgy.

 

[sedonaman]

It’s been often said that we all have talents. I disagree. A talent is an ability of unusually high quality. While we all have abilities to some degree, few have talent. The talented depend on it for a living.

The lady in charge of our music at mass is so musically talented not only in singing but in playing any musical instrument to such a high degree that I could go into my garage, gather up a bunch of scrap metal and wood, throw it together in some fashion, and she could play it. Her voice is like a bell. I have a voice like a frog, and the only musical instrument I can play is the Victrola.

Why should I compete with the likes of her?

 

[Sarabande]

It’s been often said that we all have talents. I disagree. A talent is an ability of unusually high quality. While we all have abilities to some degree, few have talent. The talented depend on it for a living.

The lady in charge of our music at mass is so musically talented not only in singing but in playing any musical instrument to such a high degree that I could go into my garage, gather up a bunch of scrap metal and wood, throw it together in some fashion, and she could play it. Her voice is like a bell. I have a voice like a frog, and the only musical instrument I can play is the Victrola.
**
Why should I compete with the likes of her?**

I think maybe you shouldn’t think about it as “competing”. I’m a classical singer and make my living only through singing and have worked with many talented instrumentalists and singers. Any true, open and loving musician will tell you that when you are collaborating with other musicians, there should not be a view of competition, but a collaboration to create art and beauty through the music, and hopefully to touch the listener on some sort of level… for me a spiritual one.

When I work at my church job, my position is to lead the music most of the time, unless I am singing the psalm, the gospel verse or perhaps singing a solo for a choral piece, etc. For congregational singing, I want to hear people sing… not just my own voice. Otherwise, it become a solo, which is not the intent and the purpose. I don’t care if the congregation does not have trained voices or have voices that sound like “frogs”. (My husband always says that he has voice that will peel paint, but he actually has a lovely voice, so I wonder how much of “frog” you really sound. ) I want to hear those voices over mine. Really, having a cantor position should never be about being a soloist and any cantor who does see it as such has an incorrect view, in my opinion. I’m sure your music director would love to hear all of you sing as well and would be very happy to see/hear you all singing along.

 

[mary72]

"Sorry my friend, but I just don’t agree. You’re coming from a Dionysian standpoint, and I am from an Apollonian. Our personalities are fundamentally divergent here! You go to your Charismatic service, and I’ll go to the Mass that places me in a greater sense of awe than anything else can. We must recognise our own individuality, and attend the right worship that is most proper to it. I myself find Charismatic services utterly offensive and blasphemous, but that’s my personality speaking. I want exterior quiet, and a joyful noise on the interior. "

I find your comment very anti-Catholic.

The Catholic church is most supportive and encouraging of Spirit-Filled worship in our Masses. In fact, you need to do some research on this, my friend.

If it’s good for Pope John Paul II to be clapping and glorifying and praising God in Mass, then it’s good enough for ALL of us.

We are HUMAN beings- we have emotions. We cry, laugh, shout, whisper.

God wants ALL of us. Not just your little rationed display of affection according to your own limitations and restrictive ideas about “appropriateness”. Very small-minded. God delights at us when we abandon ourselves and “Shout to the Lord”- like King David.

In the psalms, David was so in awe of God that he danced, sang, praised, shouted.

In actual fact, the Catholic Charasmatic Renewal has been said by the Vatican, to be “the Hope of the Catholic Church”. Praise God!

I love quiet, mystical (or shall we say theatrical /gothic…?), mass, however some Catholics worship like this as it masks behind insecurities and personality disorders.

God desires that we are FREE and healed to be exactly who he made us to be.
If you are happy to be quiet, that is fine, however do not insult the Church or other Charasmatic Catholics, in their Spirit-led worship.

Gregorian chants are beautiful, but can also be pretentious and “quaint”.

Be very careful to be fully authentic. Express exactly in the way the Holy Spirit leads you.

 

[quilisma]

Singability. Modern hymns don’t have it. Generally the range is obscenely wide and pitched too high for most–that and the tunes are rendered in odd jumps and the rhythm is jerky. And there is no breath-space engineered in.

Plus our culture disdains singing with mockery of singers freely vented in the vein of “Don’t quit your day job” etc. Most don’t realize that the human voice has little in common with the electronically fattened voices heard in commercial song. Holy Angels, bring us to express ourselves fully in song all for God’s honor and glory. AMEN

As a cantor, I just have to grin! I definitely agree that most of the hymns written in the last 40 years or so are not singable. I remember noticing the odd jumps and jerky rhythms even as a child.

But the pitch… Maybe it’s because I spent years singing classical Church music in choirs as a soprano, but I find most hymns are pitched way too low. When cantoring I have to rely heavily on the microphone in order to pick up the bottom notes, because they won’t project past the front pew otherwise. :hammering: IMHO, most “modern” hymns would never have lasted in the pre-amplification era.

Incidentally, in my experience, the hymns and Mass settings are chosen by the parish music director, not the cantor (unless they happen to be the same person).

 

[lisahiku]

I think catholics would sing if two criteria were met:

1. They KNEW the hymn
2. They were confident in their singing voice. ( I struggle with that one)

 

[Sarabande]

Incidentally, in my experience, the hymns and Mass settings are chosen by the parish music director, not the cantor (unless they happen to be the same person).

Yes, so, so true. I often read on these threads and have experienced it in real life people who seem to always blame the cantor for the hymns and other music chosen. It is very rare when the cantor chooses the music. We often don’t get a say what is done for mass. I do the music that my boss or the pastor tells me to cantor whether or not I like the music or think it’s appropriate for liturgy. But since we’re the ones up front we get the blame.

 

[prippetoe]

What the Catechism says about singing at Mass:

Singing and music

1156
“The musical tradition of the universal Church is a treasure of inestimable value, greater even than that of any other art. The main reason for this pre-eminence is thatas a combination of sacred music and words it forms a necessary or integral part of solemn liturgy.” The composition and singing of inspired psalms, often accompanied by musical instruments, were already closely linked to the liturgical celebrations of the Old Covenant. The Church continues and develops this tradition:** “Address . . . one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with all your heart**.” “He who sings prays twice.”

1157
Song and music fulfill their function as signs in a manner all the more significant when they are “more closely connected . . . with the liturgical action,” according to three principal criteria: beauty expressive of prayer, the unanimous participation of the assembly at the designated moments, and the solemn character of the celebration. In this way they participate in the purpose of the liturgical words and actions: the glory of God and the sanctification of the faithful:

How I wept, deeply moved by your hymns, songs, and the voices that echoed through your Church! What emotion I experienced in them! Those sounds flowed into my ears, distilling the truth in my heart. A feeling of devotion surged within me, and tears streamed down my face—tears that did me good.

1158
The harmony of signs (song, music, words, and actions) is all the more expressive and fruitful when expressed in the cultural richness of the People of God who celebrate. Hence “religious singing by the faithful is to be intelligently fostered so that in devotions and sacred exercises as well as in liturgical services,” in conformity with the Church’s norms, “the voices of the faithful may be heard.” But “the texts intended to be sung must always be in conformity with Catholic doctrine. Indeed they should be drawn chiefly from the Sacred Scripture and from liturgical sources.”

I am the music teacher at our church school and I teach our kids that EVERYONE should be singing at Mass. Our songs of praise (hymns) are glorious to the Lords ears…even if we sound like bullfrogs. If you don’t sing well, sing loud!

 

[Eugenius]

"Sorry my friend, but I just don’t agree. You’re coming from a Dionysian standpoint, and I am from an Apollonian. Our personalities are fundamentally divergent here! You go to your Charismatic service, and I’ll go to the Mass that places me in a greater sense of awe than anything else can. We must recognise our own individuality, and attend the right worship that is most proper to it. I myself find Charismatic services utterly offensive and blasphemous, but that’s my personality speaking. I want exterior quiet, and a joyful noise on the interior. "

I find your comment very anti-Catholic.

The Catholic church is most supportive and encouraging of Spirit-Filled worship in our Masses. In fact, you need to do some research on this, my friend.

If it’s good for Pope John Paul II to be clapping and glorifying and praising God in Mass, then it’s good enough for ALL of us.

We are HUMAN beings- we have emotions. We cry, laugh, shout, whisper.

God wants ALL of us. Not just your little rationed display of affection according to your own limitations and restrictive ideas about “appropriateness”. Very small-minded. God delights at us when we abandon ourselves and “Shout to the Lord”- like King David.

In the psalms, David was so in awe of God that he danced, sang, praised, shouted.

In actual fact, the Catholic Charasmatic Renewal has been said by the Vatican, to be “the Hope of the Catholic Church”. Praise God!

I love quiet, mystical (or shall we say theatrical /gothic…?), mass, however some Catholics worship like this as it masks behind insecurities and personality disorders.

God desires that we are FREE and healed to be exactly who he made us to be.
If you are happy to be quiet, that is fine, however do not insult the Church or other Charasmatic Catholics, in their Spirit-led worship.

Gregorian chants are beautiful, but can also be pretentious and “quaint”.

Be very careful to be fully authentic. Express exactly in the way the Holy Spirit leads you.

I didn’t find the post to which you responded anti-catholic at all.

I don’t mean to sound offensive, but I am wondering if you are a convert to the Catholic church. Did you experience this singing, clapping style at your former church and are trying to reform the mass to your liking or are you are traditional catholic experimenting? Every once in a while someone will say something on CAF that just feels more Protestant than Catholic and many of the comments about singing during mass and not liking chant strike me that way.

If you study the history and intent of the liturgy then the reasons for singing chant becomes more obvious, it isn’t a time to break out and express yourself. It is almost humorous to imagine the pope singing the mass at St Peter’s in any style other than chant. Chant is the music of the church and one reason it was used for so long was that it helped carry the voice in the days before microphones in ways that no other form of music can. Yes, the Bible does urge us to sing and clap for joy, but it was never written that it had to be done during mass.

 

[ProVobis]

1156
“The musical tradition of the universal Church is a treasure of inestimable value, greater even than that of any other art. The main reason for this pre-eminence is thatas a combination of sacred music and words it forms a necessary or integral part of solemn liturgy.” The composition and singing of inspired psalms, often accompanied by musical instruments, were already closely linked to the liturgical celebrations of the Old Covenant. The Church continues and develops this tradition: “Address . . . one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with all your heart.” “He who sings prays twice.”

It seems Fr Z contests this.

wdtprs.com/blog/2006/02/st-augustine-he-who-sings-prays-twice/

 

[ProVobis]

But since we’re the ones up front we get the blame.

Well, now that you bring it up…it seems then the obvious solution is to do it from the back.

Please don’t take this the wrong way but anything in front of us, readers, cantors, pianists, choirs, can be most distracting, so yes, it would be natural to blame cantors for bad music or bad selections. (It also reminds us of those despicable teachers we had at school telling us what to do.) OTOH, if the choir loft is designed properly so that the choirmasters/organists/etc will never be seen, people should be able to focus on the altar/crucifix/tabernacle/priest more.

Is there anything in the GIRM that says everything must be upfront? Just asking.

 

[Sarabande]

Well, now that you bring it up…it seems then the obvious solution is to do it from the back.

Please don’t take this the wrong way but anything in front of us, readers, cantors, pianists, choirs, can be most distracting, so yes, it would be natural to blame cantors for bad music or bad selections. (It also reminds us of those despicable teachers we had at school telling us what to do.) OTOH, if the choir loft is designed properly so that the choirmasters/organists/etc will never be seen, people should be able to focus on the altar/crucifix/tabernacle/priest more.

Is there anything in the GIRM that says everything must be upfront? Just asking.

Believe me, I don’t take it the wrong way at all. I personally believe that the musicians should be in the back in the choir loft or somewhere off to the side if there are no lofts. I actually don’t like cantoring from the front for the hymns because it automatically puts eyes on me. In my experience from cantoring in different areas of churches (from the back in choir lofts, from the sides and from the front) it didn’t matter where I was situated. People still sang well no matter where I was. I am there to help lend support to the singing if needed, but will hold back if I’m not needed.

I guess because I have been in liturgical music almost all my life, starting as a child chorister from the age of 7 and because I have been involved in various parishes, I have always known that music directors or the pastors chose the music… no one else. It personally didn’t/doesn’t seem natural to me to think otherwise which is why it doesn’t make sense to me when people blame the cantors. At the same time, I realize most people don’t understand or know about the inner workings of what goes on in their parishes because they don’t work there, are not involved in any of the ministries or attend parish council meetings, etc. I cannot blame them for that. It’s just sad that cantors do tend to get the blame.

We can blame the cantors (and the music directors for allowing it) for poor singing and poor musicianship since it is their responsibility and job to provide that competently, but hardly ever for the choices in music, unless they are in charge, of course.

 

[odile53]

I attend weekday Mass at a parish belonging to a religious order of priests, in other words, not staffed by diocesan priests. Weekday Mass never was one with music of any sort. Fairly recently, a new priest rotated in. The “horrifying” thing about that is he likes to sing, and thinks we should all be singing.

I don’t sing. My voice is about as bad as Roseanne Barr’s voice (think of her truly awful rendition of the national anthem at a baseball game a couple of decades ago.) I sound like a buzz saw. And I got specifically asked not to sing by one of the grade school nuns during Confirmation practice.

I stand there with an open hymnal and follow along with my eyes. I’ve done this all my life.

While at Mass about a month ago I had the distinct feeling of being watched. I looked up. Father was singing away, and glowering at me.

After Mass he stopped me and gave me the spiel about singing being praying twice, yadda, yadda. I told him I have a terrible voice. He didn’t believe me. So I demonstrated. He said I should still sing. I said I was not singing out of charity for my neighbors. He said that was baloney. So now out of obedience I sing. The more modern hymns, with their syncopated rhythms, octave-plus spreads, and unfamiliar phrasing, are the worst for me. People nearby look at me as if they are annoyed. I can’t blame them. I cringe every time a hymn is sung, and only feel slightly comfortable if there is organ accompaniment that I can hide my voice behind. No other instrumental accompaniment seems to accomplish that happy state of affairs.

I hope Our Lord isn’t too offended. He gave me many gifts. Singing wasn’t one of them.

There may be a very good reason why your neighbor isn’t singing. Leave them alone!

 

[Sarabande]

I attend weekday Mass at a parish belonging to a religious order of priests, in other words, not staffed by diocesan priests. Weekday Mass never was one with music of any sort. Fairly recently, a new priest rotated in. The “horrifying” thing about that is he likes to sing, and thinks we should all be singing.

I don’t sing. My voice is about as bad as Roseanne Barr’s voice (think of her truly awful rendition of the national anthem at a baseball game a couple of decades ago.) I sound like a buzz saw. And I got specifically asked not to sing by one of the grade school nuns during Confirmation practice.

I stand there with an open hymnal and follow along with my eyes. I’ve done this all my life.

While at Mass about a month ago I had the distinct feeling of being watched. I looked up. Father was singing away, and glowering at me.

After Mass he stopped me and gave me the spiel about singing being praying twice, yadda, yadda. I told him I have a terrible voice. He didn’t believe me. So I demonstrated. He said I should still sing. I said I was not singing out of charity for my neighbors. He said that was baloney. So now out of obedience I sing. The more modern hymns, with their syncopated rhythms, octave-plus spreads, and unfamiliar phrasing, are the worst for me. People nearby look at me as if they are annoyed. I can’t blame them. I cringe every time a hymn is sung, and only feel slightly comfortable if there is organ accompaniment that I can hide my voice behind. No other instrumental accompaniment seems to accomplish that happy state of affairs.

I hope Our Lord isn’t too offended. He gave me many gifts. Singing wasn’t one of them.

There may be a very good reason why your neighbor isn’t singing. Leave them alone!

See, although I personally don’t care how bad a voice is and would be pleased if they sang, I also don’t believe it was right for the priest to glower at you and force you to sing. No one should be forced to sing. I absolutely love singing, it’s what I do for my profession, but I would never make someone sing if they didn’t want to. There are times when I don’t feel like singing and get more out of the music spiritually-speaking as a listener and even looking at the music. I don’t find anything wrong with that.

The only time I have a hard time handling a bad singer is when they somehow ended up cantoring. It causes more distraction than anything else because you can hear their voices over everyone elses’. Whereas in the congregation, it’s a conglomeration of voices. I do agree that a good organist can provide sufficient support, comfort and “cover” for those who don’t feel comfortable singing. Although I understand that some parishes have no choice but to use a piano or guitar, the support just isn’t enough… not that it causes less singing, but I don’t think it encourages those who might give singing a shot. (Only based on people I’ve spoken to in real life about this.)

 

[ProVobis]

While at Mass about a month ago I had the distinct feeling of being watched. I looked up. Father was singing away, and glowering at me.

Another good reason for reintroducing the ad orientem Mass?