Can We Get Catholics to Sing?

[Sarabande]

I know it is in the Byzantine tradition.

I just noticed what you wrote. You stated it was a small congregation and so are most Byzantine. Could that be a factor? The larger the congregation, the fewer people sing proportionally? “Someone else will do the singing” syndrome? If there are fewer people, not singing is much more noticeable.

I think you might have a very good point there. I’ve noticed that myself. The smaller the congregation, the more they sing, it seems. Now, that also depends on the congregation, because I’ve cantored at parishes and different masses where the congregation totally blows the roof off the church and I don’t have to really sing into the mic at all except to just start them out on the first line. Then there are other congregations where you have to basically walk them through it, making them feel comfortable to sing out.

But I truly believe there are many reasons as to why congregations/individual people sing and don’t sing. Each parish has it’s own dynamic, I have found, from cantoring at so many different churches.

Byzantine parishes do tend to sing more, I think because it is more of a cultural, tradition and an old one. I have family who are Byzantine Catholic in a good-sized parish. They are taught from a young age to sing in harmony during their liturgy. That particular parish (and I’m assuming many others) sing in 6-part harmony. The priest who married my husband and I loved the Byzantine tradition of singing and was friends with this particular parish. He once invited the Byzantine parish and choir to come to his. The singing wasn’t perfect (which was not what I would expect or wanted), but it was amazing hearing “normal” everyday people with no training being able to sing their parts without a problem.

The Latin Rite does not have that kind of old, long tradition.

 

[Sarabande]

I’m sorry but this argument does not work for me - Catholics engage with the responses to the litugy and the sung Ordinary of the mass, so to suggest that they drift into and out of attention during the different stages of the mass is quite strange. Your words are very telling though “who wants to be made to sing” making it sound like some kind of torture!

Actually I go to solemn benediction every Saturday night - even then only a faithful few sing the Tantum Ergo.

But here is another variable. There are many places where people don’t even participate in the spoken responses. I’ve attended many masses, where I felt like my husband and I were the only ones responding to the priest.

 

[quilisma]

It’s just the way people sing in the U.S.–they kind of hum/sing in their heads along with a radio or iPod.

It’s true – to a lot of people in the U.S., music is entertainment – something somebody else does to entertain you. It is no longer something most people make for themselves or others. It’s background noise and not meant to be something participatory. Little wonder that when put into a situation where they are suddenly expected to BE the “entertainment”, they’re like fish out of water and very uncomfortable.

The other times in the Mass when we need to do the work of the liturgy together is the congregational hymns. When the priest has made the decision that a hymn is to be sung by the congregation, we need to obey the priest and do the hymn, even if we would prefer a Proper or a choir rendition of the hymn.

There was some mention earlier in this thread regarding the fact that the person making decisions about the music is the music director – not the priest, not the cantor, not the choir. “Doing the hymn” as an act of obedience, while spiritually laudable for purposes of cultivating humility a la St. Therese, is really an act of obedience to the music director, not the priest. When I cantor, I am given two copies of a list of the hymns the music director chose for that Mass. One is for me to use, the other is to leave in the sacristy for the priest so he will know what HE’S being directed to do.

We need to stop making up reasons to disobey the priest, humble ourselves, gird up our loins, and WORK to make the effort to sing or at least listen actively during the congregational hymns.

I fear that if people felt they were being told they were being disobedient to the priest (actually the music director) by not singing loudly enough, they would begin having second thoughts about coming to Mass at all if they knew they weren’t up to loud singing at that moment. There is plenty of misplaced guilt floating around (I’m not referring to what used to be called “Catholic guilt”, but to the efforts of the media to make us feel guilty about “offending” someone else – anything from having an occasional donut or not exercising our brains out every waking moment, to being descended from the “wrong” ancestors) without giving Americans one more “excuse” to stay away from Mass. I’d rather people come to Mass and not sing, than for them to stay home because some self-appointed judge of congregational participation is going to criticize them for not singing loudly enough to please him or her.

Granted, it’s a pretty flimsy “reason” to stay away from Mass, but given Americans’ track record for church attendance over the last half-century or so, do we really want to give the impression that only the boldest singers are welcome at Mass?

Also, how does one tell the difference between someone who is “actively listening” and someone who is standing there thinking just as “actively” about the football game that will be kicking off in exactly one hour and seventeen minutes from that moment?

 

[Allegra]

It really bothers me that no one in my new church sings. Only a handful of people even open the hymnal and move their lips. They even ignore the ordinary when it is sung. I think that more people would sing if they felt like they weren’t the only one. Alot of people like to sing, but not by themselves. I don’t know how to solve the problem though.

 

[liturgyluver]

But here is another variable. There are many places where people don’t even participate in the spoken responses. I’ve attended many masses, where I felt like my husband and I were the only ones responding to the priest.

Yes, you’re right to mention this and I have noticed this too - and it seems to becoming more and prevalent. I think it’s very disrespectful not to engage in the liturgy, but I think there are a sizeable minority out there who think they only need to walk in the door at some point during mass on a Sunday, stand there not engaging and looking bored, receive communion and then walk out again. Box ticked - they have fulfilled their obligation. More and more, I have seen people receive communion and then walk out: it’s disgraceful.

 

[Ruth_Catherine]

But here is another variable. There are many places where people don’t even participate in the spoken responses. I’ve attended many masses, where I felt like my husband and I were the only ones responding to the priest.

See, you’re right. This is a topic on another thread. Getting Catholics to sing. I would rather see Catholics praying the prayers. Opening their missals. The other day at mass I couldn’t tell if the people next to me were praying along with the prayers but I could sure hear them sing.

Also, this isn’t just a Catholic issue. There are people who just don’t want to sing. In my years in the protestant and evangelical churches they had the same problem and there if they couldn’t get you to sing they would crank the music up louder, which would in turn make you irritable and give you a headache or make you want to dance or move to the music. Probably not what should be going on at mass.

It’s a music thing not a Catholic thing. Some people like to sing and some people don’t. Personally I prefer meditative type music that I can listen to and meditate on God.

 

[Cat]

There was some mention earlier in this thread regarding the fact that the person making decisions about the music is the music director – not the priest, not the cantor, not the choir. “Doing the hymn” as an act of obedience, while spiritually laudable for purposes of cultivating humility a la St. Therese, is really an act of obedience to the music director, not the priest. When I cantor, I am given two copies of a list of the hymns the music director chose for that Mass. One is for me to use, the other is to leave in the sacristy for the priest so he will know what HE’S being directed to do.

(portions of quoted post omitted by Cat because the paragraph above is the one she wishes to comment upon)

It is the priest, or more accurately, the diocese, headed by the bishop, who hires and retains the services of the parish music director. (If the music director is a volunteer, it is still the priest who approves of the person.)

It is the priest who gives the music director the authority to select the music for the Mass. If the priest disapproves of certain hymns, styles of music, instruments, etc., it is his responsibility to inform the music director, who will presumably follow the instructions of the priest. The music in any parish is ultimately the responsibility of the priest, although he may choose to designate the task to the music director.

A music director has no authority unless the priest gives him/her authority.

Therefore it is the priest/bishop that we are obeying when we support the music director and his/her music choices, and the priest/bishop that we are disobeying when we disrespect the music director and his/her music choices.

We don’t have to LIKE all the music choices. I certainly don’t like the chants that we are now doing (vernacular chants of the propers with the text of the new translation of the Mass). They are quite ugly. But I still sing with all my heart, because I know that other people probably do like the chants, and people who don’t read music need to hear someone else singing so that they can learn the music by ear. So I sing out of respect for the music director, for the priest and bishop, for the other Christians present, and ultimately, out of respect for the Lord Jesus, Who we are honoring in the Holy Mass.

 

[liturgyluver]

See, you’re right. This is a topic on another thread. Getting Catholics to sing. I would rather see Catholics praying the prayers. Opening their missals. The other day at mass I couldn’t tell if the people next to me were praying along with the prayers but I could sure hear them sing.

Also, this isn’t just a Catholic issue. There are people who just don’t want to sing. In my years in the protestant and evangelical churches they had the same problem and there if they couldn’t get you to sing they would crank the music up louder, which would in turn make you irritable and give you a headache or make you want to dance or move to the music. Probably not what should be going on at mass.

It’s a music thing not a Catholic thing. Some people like to sing and some people don’t. Personally I prefer meditative type music that I can listen to and meditate on God.

I find it really weird that it seems to be too much to ask a congregation to attend mass and to engage with both the prayers and the music. Why switch in and switch out? I think one of the good things about Catholics at mass is that they generally know exactly what to say and what posture to adopt and what the responses are, many without even opening their missals.

But the music thing is something else: I can undersand not singing if the service is choral or if an anthem is being sung, but what is the point of having a mass with hymns when hardly anyone sings? I disagree with you when you say that it isn’t a Catholic issue, perhaps things are different in your area but there are loads of comments on this forum alone about the lack of singing in (English-speaking) Catholic churches. There is even a book called “Why Catholics don’t sing?” which deals with the lack of singing in the US, and it is also an issue here in the UK. I have discussed this issue myself with Bishops and Clergy. Admitedly I haven’t been to any of the evangelical happy-clappy churches, but when I (and friends) have been to an Anglican, Lutheran, or Presbyterian Churches almost everyone sings, whereas in the Catholic churches almost everyone doesn’t (though I had a pleasant surprise at Westminster Cathedral on Saturday!).

 

[Warrenton]

but what is the point of having a mass with hymns when hardly anyone sings?

Leaving aside polyphony and Gregorian chant, do you think it is possible that people don’t sing because they don’t like the music?

 

[Ruth_Catherine]

I find it really weird that it seems to be too much to ask a congregation to attend mass and to engage with both the prayers and the music. Why switch in and switch out? I think one of the good things about Catholics at mass is that they generally know exactly what to say and what posture to adopt and what the responses are, many without even opening their missals.

But the music thing is something else: I can undersand not singing if the service is choral or if an anthem is being sung, but what is the point of having a mass with hymns when hardly anyone sings? I disagree with you when you say that it isn’t a Catholic issue, perhaps things are different in your area but there are loads of comments on this forum alone about the lack of singing in (English-speaking) Catholic churches. There is even a book called “Why Catholics don’t sing?” which deals with the lack of singing in the US, and it is also an issue here in the UK. I have discussed this issue myself with Bishops and Clergy. Admitedly I haven’t been to any of the evangelical happy-clappy churches, but when I (and friends) have been to an Anglican, Lutheran, or Presbyterian Churches almost everyone sings, whereas in the Catholic churches almost everyone doesn’t (though I had a pleasant surprise at Westminster Cathedral on Saturday!).

I agree most Catholics know the postures and the regular responses and prayers but we are to join in, at least in our hearts, with all the prayers. The responsorial psalm, the prayers the priest says and the antiphons. Those are kind of hard to do if you don’t have a missal. Yes, you can hear the prayers the priest is saying but it helps to see it with your eyes also. The Bible readings of the mass are in the missal also. Following along with the missal helps keep your mind focused on what is being read. Still, yes your mind can wander but seeing the words and following along helps.

I’m not saying people shouldn’t sing. I like to sing but I know people who don’t like to sing. I just find that the singing takes a back seat to following along with mass.

Another reason maybe protestants sing more is because they were taught to sing and know how to follow along in the hymnal, maybe there are some that just don’t know how to follow along with a hymn.

And maybe some Catholics would like to hear more traditional Catholic music, like chant.

 

[liturgyluver]

Leaving aside polyphony and Gregorian chant, do you think it is possible that people don’t sing because they don’t like the music?

If it’s modern happy-clappy type song then yes perhaps, but even traditional hymns like Sweet Sacrament Divine, Praise to the Holiest in the height, Come Down O Love Divine are often met with deathly silence.

 

[liturgyluver]

I agree most Catholics know the postures and the regular responses and prayers but we are to join in, at least in our hearts, with all the prayers. The responsorial psalm, the prayers the priest says and the antiphons. Those are kind of hard to do if you don’t have a missal. Yes, you can hear the prayers the priest is saying but it helps to see it with your eyes also. The Bible readings of the mass are in the missal also. Following along with the missal helps keep your mind focused on what is being read. Still, yes your mind can wander but seeing the words and following along helps.

I’m not saying people shouldn’t sing. I like to sing but I know people who don’t like to sing. I just find that the singing takes a back seat to following along with mass.

Another reason maybe protestants sing more is because they were taught to sing and know how to follow along in the hymnal, maybe there are some that just don’t know how to follow along with a hymn.

And maybe some Catholics would like to hear more traditional Catholic music, like chant.

Thanks - those are really good points, and you’re right of course about the readings and psalm and antiphons where you do need to focus on the missal to appreciate properly.

 

[Contarini]

I agree that “modern” hymns are not very singable. Too high for male voices, for the most part; abrupt, inexplicable changes of melody or key. Absolutely not well designed to allow emphasis on the “singable vowels”.

But also, the “Modern” hymns aren’t all that “modern”. If you look at the copyright dates for most of the hymns in the hymnals, virtually all were written in the 1970s and early 1980s, mostly the former. They nearly all have that “faux folk song” sound to them. They’re a “period piece” now. But they keep playing them and expecting people to sing them. It’s like expecting people to get all excited over shag carpet and bell-bottom trousers.

In the parishes where I attend Mass, about the only time people really join in is when (unfortunately) some old protestant hymn is sung. They’re written to be sung by congregations, not by some folk group. Men can actually reach the notes, the melodies are simple and melodious and easily remembered. The vowel sounds can be emphasized and sustained, and usually in the right places. The people who composed them understood music. The “modern” (read circa 1975) St. Louis Jesuits and Marty Haugen, for example, undoubtedly understood the whangalang “liturgical tastes” of their time. But their time has passed. We’re now singing museum artifacts, and are expected to keep slogging through them. It’s no wonder people don’t like to do it.

If something written in the 1970s is a museum piece, what would that make of the Tantum Ergo?

For heaven’s sake, oppose this music because it’s bad, if you think it is (I’m not sure it’s bad, exactly, but I certainly want it in very small doses and have always found its dominance in Catholic worship extremely annoying), but don’t bring chronological snobbery into it!

Edwin

 

[phillipa31]

I know it’s a cultural thing where I grew up. My hometown has a parish of easily 20,000 people. The Filipino’s had a Mass and they sing. Same for the Portuguese, Spanish and the Italians. But for some reason, the English Masses were quiet. For some reason, those not closely associated with any ethnic group didn’t sing much. I always thought it was because I grew up with family who sang a lot. So, when we attended Mass, we sang. But when we attended the English Masses hardly anyone sang.

 

[ProVobis]

I know it’s a cultural thing where I grew up. My hometown has a parish of easily 20,000 people. The Filipino’s had a Mass and they sing. Same for the Portuguese, Spanish and the Italians. But for some reason, the English Masses were quiet. For some reason, those not closely associated with any ethnic group didn’t sing much. I always thought it was because I grew up with family who sang a lot. So, when we attended Mass, we sang. But when we attended the English Masses hardly anyone sang.

You just came up with the solution.

 

[liturgyluver]

I know it’s a cultural thing where I grew up. My hometown has a parish of easily 20,000 people. The Filipino’s had a Mass and they sing. Same for the Portuguese, Spanish and the Italians. But for some reason, the English Masses were quiet. For some reason, those not closely associated with any ethnic group didn’t sing much. I always thought it was because I grew up with family who sang a lot. So, when we attended Mass, we sang. But when we attended the English Masses hardly anyone sang.

Culture certainly plays a part, but it’s slightly more complicated as there is a differentiation between what happens “at home” and when communities come together in a “foreign” land: I am half-Italian and have lived in Italy and Spain and for a short time in Germany and Poland.

• In Italy I noticed that they certainly sing the Ordinary of the mass enthusiastically, but as for hymns, forget it. In fact there are very few Italian hymns. I once spent Christmas in Italy and there even seemed to be few Christmas carols.
• In Spain, the mass was generally terribly conducted (late starting and sloppily executed) and no-one sang, and to be frank I don’t blame them, the music was dire.
  *In Germany, everyone sings and they sing beautifully, and of course they have a tradition of great hymns like the English. I love the way they all rise up in unison with their hymnals open at the begininng of the hymn.
• In Poland, the devotion by Catholics was amazing, but as far as music there was an inconsistent picture. In some places some sang, in others they didnt.

The ethnic dimension, - whilst interesting - still doesn’t explain why English-speaking Catholics don’t sing whilst their Anglican, Lutheran and Presbyterian counterparts do.

 

[Georgia]

It’s true – to a lot of people in the U.S., music is entertainment – something somebody else does to entertain you. It is no longer something most people make for themselves or others. It’s background noise and not meant to be something participatory. Little wonder that when put into a situation where they are suddenly expected to BE the “entertainment”, they’re like fish out of water and very uncomfortable.

There is a nearby parish where this earlier comment really seems to fit. If the choir does a really nice song, there is applause just like at live theater. Yes, it is during the Mass. When the recessional song ends, people applaud every time.

 

[liturgyluver]

quilisma;8498052:

There is a nearby parish where this earlier comment really seems to fit. If the choir does a really nice song, there is applause just like at live theater. Yes, it is during the Mass. When the recessional song ends, people applaud every time.

That is really shocking, and it’s sad that some people don’t realise that in music the choir is raising its voice in praise of God, not in performance.

“Sing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs with thankfulness in your heart to God”

 

[Cat]

I agree most Catholics know the postures and the regular responses and prayers but we are to join in, at least in our hearts, with all the prayers. The responsorial psalm, the prayers the priest says and the antiphons. Those are kind of hard to do if you don’t have a missal. Yes, you can hear the prayers the priest is saying but it helps to see it with your eyes also. The Bible readings of the mass are in the missal also. Following along with the missal helps keep your mind focused on what is being read. Still, yes your mind can wander but seeing the words and following along helps.

I’m not saying people shouldn’t sing. I like to sing but I know people who don’t like to sing. I just find that the singing takes a back seat to following along with mass.

Another reason maybe protestants sing more is because they were taught to sing and know how to follow along in the hymnal, maybe there are some that just don’t know how to follow along with a hymn.

And maybe some Catholics would like to hear more traditional Catholic music, like chant.

But the Mass isn’t about what “I” want to hear. It’s about what God wants to hear.

The Catholic Church has never condemned the “contemporary” hymns. Never, ever. There is no document that says that ONLY chant can be sung, or that hymns that are traditional “Catholic” (whatever that means, since there are plenty of traditional Catholic hymns that were written by Protestants for Protestants) must be sung. The Church allows for all kinds of music to be used in the Holy Mass, whether we like it or not.

Our bishop is about as conservative as you can get. He is on top of abuses in the Masses and he puts a swift end to them. BUT he allows the contemporary music in the Masses. I know he doesn’t personally prefer it, but he allows it because the Church allows it.

In other threads in CAF, a liberal Catholic is defined as someone who sees the Mass as “all about what they like rather than all about what Jesus likes.” Isn’t that what someone is who insists on not singing hymns or other music that they don’t like?

And doesn’t this mean that I, Cat, am the most traditional Catholic of all, because I will sing anything that the music director plans for the congregation, whether or not I personally like it? And even though I am not a really good singer?

 

[ProVobis]

The ethnic dimension, - whilst interesting - still doesn’t explain why English-speaking Catholics don’t sing whilst their Anglican, Lutheran and Presbyterian counterparts do.

It’s interesting because theoretically Anglosphere itself is a separate culture. Perhaps Anglophone Catholics care not to attach themselves too closely with Protestant or more secular singing? I don’t know. I’ve seen Poles sing most vocally at Polish Masses but woudn’t be caught dead singing at an English Mass even “Catholic” or Mass songs.

That aside, I note now that fewer sing the National Anthem at ballgames but more sing “Take Me Out to the Ballgame” later. I wonder if having someone else sing the Anthem takes the motivation away for the crowd to sing.