Can We Get Catholics to Sing?

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Cat said:
(portions of quoted post omitted by Cat because the paragraph above is the one she wishes to comment upon)

It is the priest, or more accurately, the diocese, headed by the bishop, who hires and retains the services of the parish music director. (If the music director is a volunteer, it is still the priest who approves of the person.)

It is the priest who gives the music director the authority to select the music for the Mass. If the priest disapproves of certain hymns, styles of music, instruments, etc., it is his responsibility to inform the music director, who will presumably follow the instructions of the priest.
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It’s my experience that when the MD is a volunteer such an action by the priest will usually result in the MD quitting, followed shortly by most of the choir. Priests know that and don’t rock the boat.
 
Ruth_Catherine said:
I agree most Catholics know the postures and the regular responses and prayers but we are to join in, at least in our hearts, with all the prayers. The responsorial psalm, the prayers the priest says and the antiphons. Those are kind of hard to do if you don’t have a missal. Yes, you can hear the prayers the priest is saying but it helps to see it with your eyes also. The Bible readings of the mass are in the missal also. Following along with the missal helps keep your mind focused on what is being read. Still, yes your mind can wander but seeing the words and following along helps.

I’m not saying people shouldn’t sing. I like to sing but I know people who don’t like to sing. I just find that the singing takes a back seat to following along with mass.

Another reason maybe protestants sing more is because they were taught to sing and know how to follow along in the hymnal, maybe there are some that just don’t know how to follow along with a hymn.

And maybe some Catholics would like to hear more traditional Catholic music, like chant.
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I never use a Missal but I guess I’ll have to start in a couple of weeks. For now, I know the prayers by heart and I do better with my eyes closed, listening, than reading along.

If anything, it’s been drilled into us for a couple of decades that we should be listening not reading along, that the Missal and missalettes were for preparation rather than for use at Mass. Unfortunately, that failed to take into account that there are at least two types of learners, visual ones and auditory one. I happen to fall into the auditory group.
 
Georgia said:
quilisma;8498052:
It’s true – to a lot of people in the U.S., music is entertainment – something somebody else does to entertain you. It is no longer something most people make for themselves or others. It’s background noise and not meant to be something participatory. Little wonder that when put into a situation where they are suddenly expected to BE the “entertainment”, they’re like fish out of water and very uncomfortable.

There is a nearby parish where this earlier comment really seems to fit. If the choir does a really nice song, there is applause just like at live theater. Yes, it is during the Mass. When the recessional song ends, people applaud every time.
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This seems to be the norm in so many parishes today. Using their logic, a good sermon should then be applauded. This is what happens when worship becomes horizontal instead of vertical–a logical outcome of the abuses taken place over the past 40-some years.
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elgar said:
Georgia;8532019:
This seems to be the norm in so many parishes today. Using their logic, a good sermon should then be applauded. This is what happens when worship becomes horizontal instead of vertical–a logical outcome of the abuses taken place over the past 40-some years.
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Well, I have seen that too. We’ve had a number of visiting priests who gave good homilies. They have gotten applause on returning to their chairs.

For what it’s worth, I wonder if television is part of the problem. People keep the tube on at home all the time, talk over it, and are quite used to what they see and hear there. Some seem to act as if the Mass is just another activity, so they don’t sing, they stand around whispering with their group during prayers, they don’t do responses, and they go and come as is convenient. It’s as if they are watching and are not a part of the celebration. There seems to be a loss of awe at the Mass.

Oh, and that’s not my quote. I haven’t a clue why the function attributed it to me. I don’t write that well, but I hope I’m in that ballpark.
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Georgia said:
elgar;8532594:
Well, I have seen that too. We’ve had a number of visiting priests who gave good homilies. They have gotten applause on returning to their chairs.

For what it’s worth, I wonder if television is part of the problem. People keep the tube on at home all the time, talk over it, and are quite used to what they see and hear there. Some seem to act as if the Mass is just another activity, so they don’t sing, they stand around whispering with their group during prayers, they don’t do responses, and they go and come as is convenient. It’s as if they are watching and are not a part of the celebration. There seems to be a loss of awe at the Mass.

Oh, and that’s not my quote. I haven’t a clue why the function attributed it to me. I don’t write that well, but I hope I’m in that ballpark.
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I believe you are on to something here. I would much rather attend a spoken Mass than most that have all this busy-ness throughout. How man times do I need to greet the people around me? There is so much filler music that amounts to nothing more than muzak. Why would the average person want to participate in that since it is all being done for you? Less talking all around–this includes the celebrant who is often the biggest offender. If we all faced in the same direction–homily excepted–we could then use the silence for concentration and prayer. I am all for full participation in the corporate aspects of the liturgy, so not to confuse here. It just needs to be pointed out and reminded to the people in the pews.

The quotation function must not be working properly as I am not the person it says I am. Sorry.
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Cat said:
But the Mass isn’t about what “I” want to hear. It’s about what God wants to hear.

The Catholic Church has never condemned the “contemporary” hymns. Never, ever. There is no document that says that ONLY chant can be sung, or that hymns that are traditional “Catholic” (whatever that means, since there are plenty of traditional Catholic hymns that were written by Protestants for Protestants) must be sung. The Church allows for all kinds of music to be used in the Holy Mass, whether we like it or not.

Our bishop is about as conservative as you can get. He is on top of abuses in the Masses and he puts a swift end to them. BUT he allows the contemporary music in the Masses. I know he doesn’t personally prefer it, but he allows it because the Church allows it.

In other threads in CAF, a liberal Catholic is defined as someone who sees the Mass as “all about what they like rather than all about what Jesus likes.” Isn’t that what someone is who insists on not singing hymns or other music that they don’t like?

And doesn’t this mean that I, Cat, am the most traditional Catholic of all, because I will sing anything that the music director plans for the congregation, whether or not I personally like it? 🙂 And even though I am not a really good singer?
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Hmmmmm… because the Church has not condemned “contemporary” music, that means God wants to hear it? Bit of a leap there, IMHO 😃

Most traditional Catholics I know aren’t comfortable with singing about “ourselves”. “We are the Church, we are the bread, we are the wine, we are (fill in the blank)…” We came to Mass to worship God, not to brag about what “we” supposedly are… 😉
 
quilisma said:
Hmmmmm… because the Church has not condemned “contemporary” music, that means God wants to hear it? Bit of a leap there, IMHO 😃

Most traditional Catholics I know aren’t comfortable with singing about “ourselves”. “We are the Church, we are the bread, we are the wine, we are (fill in the blank)…” We came to Mass to worship God, not to brag about what “we” supposedly are… 😉
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I agree. It’s funny because during my years as a protestant one of the songs we would laugh about and tease about was, “Here I am to Worship.” Same thinking. Singing about oneself.
 
Cat said:
But the Mass isn’t about what “I” want to hear. It’s about what God wants to hear.

The Catholic Church has never condemned the “contemporary” hymns. Never, ever. There is no document that says that ONLY chant can be sung, or that hymns that are traditional “Catholic” (whatever that means, since there are plenty of traditional Catholic hymns that were written by Protestants for Protestants) must be sung. The Church allows for all kinds of music to be used in the Holy Mass, whether we like it or not.

Our bishop is about as conservative as you can get. He is on top of abuses in the Masses and he puts a swift end to them. BUT he allows the contemporary music in the Masses. I know he doesn’t personally prefer it, but he allows it because the Church allows it.

In other threads in CAF, a liberal Catholic is defined as someone who sees the Mass as “all about what they like rather than all about what Jesus likes.” Isn’t that what someone is who insists on not singing hymns or other music that they don’t like?

And doesn’t this mean that I, Cat, am the most traditional Catholic of all, because I will sing anything that the music director plans for the congregation, whether or not I personally like it? 🙂 And even though I am not a really good singer?
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:)You’re right, Mass isn’t about what I want to hear but that doesn’t mean I know what God wants to hear. And as I have said before I like to sing. I enjoy singing but I know some that don’t like to sing, they like to listen.

As far as songs go if the theology is wrong in a protestant song, I don’t sing it and I know others who feel the same way. They want to sing something with truth.
Cat said:
The Catholic Church has never condemned the “contemporary” hymns. Never, ever. There is no document that says that ONLY chant can be sung, or that hymns that are traditional “Catholic” (whatever that means, since there are plenty of traditional Catholic hymns that were written by Protestants for Protestants) must be sung. The Church allows for all kinds of music to be used in the Holy Mass, whether we like it or not.
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I mentioned chant as one example but that doesn’t mean that is the only type of Catholic music. You’re saying what is a traditional “Catholic” song is where the problem lies. We have lost our Catholic identity, even in our music. There are so many beautiful Catholic hymns out there. We don’t even know what is Catholic anymore.
Just to name a few Catholic songs: Faith of our Fathers, Crown Him with Many Crowns, Holy God We Praise Thy Name, Jesus My Lord My God My All. What about songs to our Blessed Mother: Ave Maria, Immaculate Mary, Salve Regina.
Should we not be passing these songs and more about our Catholic faith on to our children, to the next generation.

Also, a traditional Catholic hymn cannot be written by a protestant because he is not Catholic, so more than likely he would write a protestant hymn.

Just because the MD picked it doesn’t make it right. For the most part we sing the popular modern Catholic songs but every once in a while a protestant song is included and the wordings go against our Catholic faith. That is all that I meant

.:harp:
 
Ruth_Catherine said:
I mentioned chant as one example but that doesn’t mean that is the only type of Catholic music. You’re saying what is a traditional “Catholic” song is where the problem lies. We have lost our Catholic identity, even in our music. There are so many beautiful Catholic hymns out there. We don’t even know what is Catholic anymore.
Just to name a few Catholic songs: Faith of our Fathers, Crown Him with Many Crowns, Holy God We Praise Thy Name, Jesus My Lord My God My All. What about songs to our Blessed Mother: Ave Maria, Immaculate Mary, Salve Regina.
Should we not be passing these songs and more about our Catholic faith on to our children, to the next generation.

Also, a traditional Catholic hymn cannot be written by a protestant because he is not Catholic, so more than likely he would write a protestant hymn.

Just because the MD picked it doesn’t make it right. For the most part we sing the popular modern Catholic songs but every once in a while a protestant song is included and the wordings go against our Catholic faith. That is all that I meant

.:harp:
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Ruth - I agree with you that we ought to build back the traditional Catholic hymns like the ones you mention above. I am a bit uncomfortable though with you notion that a good hymn cannot be written by a protestant, or that a hymn written by them won’t automatically be suitable for Catholics.

For example many of John Henry Newman’s great hymns were written as an Anglican before his conversion to Catholiscm. Likewise Matthew Bridges who wrote Crown him with many Crowns.

Similarly I’d find it hard to write off the hymns of
Issac Watts (O God our help in ages past, When I survey the wondrous Cross, Jesus Shall reign)
Charles Wesley (Lo he comes with clouds descending, Hark the herald anges sing, Love divine all loves excelling)
Lyte (Abide with me, Praise my soul the king of heaven)
Newton (Glorious things of thee are spoken, How sweet the name of Jesus sounds)
to name but a few simply because they written by protestants.

Interestingly Brompton Oratory has just republished its Catholic hymnbook. This includes Latin hymns, plainchant settings of the mass, hymns written by Catholics and hymns written by protestants al of which they feel are suitable for iturgy and will stand the test of time. I think it’s this balance that we need in Church.
 
liturgyluver said:
Ruth - I agree with you that we ought to build back the traditional Catholic hymns like the ones you mention above. I am a bit uncomfortable though with you notion that a good hymn cannot be written by a protestant, or that a hymn written by them won’t automatically be suitable for Catholics.

For example many of John Henry Newman’s great hymns were written as an Anglican before his conversion to Catholiscm. Likewise Matthew Bridges who wrote Crown him with many Crowns.

Similarly I’d find it hard to write off the hymns of
Issac Watts (O God our help in ages past, When I survey the wondrous Cross, Jesus Shall reign)
Charles Wesley (Lo he comes with clouds descending, Hark the herald anges sing, Love divine all loves excelling)
Lyte (Abide with me, Praise my soul the king of heaven)
Newton (Glorious things of thee are spoken, How sweet the name of Jesus sounds)
to name but a few simply because they written by protestants.

Interestingly Brompton Oratory has just republished its Catholic hymnbook. This includes Latin hymns, plainchant settings of the mass, hymns written by Catholics and hymns written by protestants al of which they feel are suitable for iturgy and will stand the test of time. I think it’s this balance that we need in Church.
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Ooooo… what is the name of their hymnal!!! I would love to get a copy of it.
 
liturgyluver said:
Ruth - I agree with you that we ought to build back the traditional Catholic hymns like the ones you mention above. I am a bit uncomfortable though with you notion that a good hymn cannot be written by a protestant, or that a hymn written by them won’t automatically be suitable for Catholics.

For example many of John Henry Newman’s great hymns were written as an Anglican before his conversion to Catholiscm. Likewise Matthew Bridges who wrote Crown him with many Crowns.

Similarly I’d find it hard to write off the hymns of
Issac Watts (O God our help in ages past, When I survey the wondrous Cross, Jesus Shall reign)
Charles Wesley (Lo he comes with clouds descending, Hark the herald anges sing, Love divine all loves excelling)
Lyte (Abide with me, Praise my soul the king of heaven)
Newton (Glorious things of thee are spoken, How sweet the name of Jesus sounds)
to name but a few simply because they written by protestants.

Interestingly Brompton Oratory has just republished its Catholic hymnbook. This includes Latin hymns, plainchant settings of the mass, hymns written by Catholics and hymns written by protestants al of which they feel are suitable for iturgy and will stand the test of time. I think it’s this balance that we need in Church.
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Oh,I agree. There are protestant hymns that don’t need to be wrote off, it just seems we are writing off a lot of Catholic hymns. I didn’t learn myself all the traditional Catholic hymns and I feel like I have missed out on something great. I am trying to learn them now. They are beautiful. This morning at adoration we sang very beautiful hymns adoring the sacrament. It would be so great to pass these on to our Catholic youth.

My meaning in my post earlier was not that a protestant could not write a good hymn but that he more than likely would not write a traditional Catholic hymn.

Also, Matthew Bridges was Catholic when he wrote Crown Him with Many Crowns. It was later Godfrey Thring changed some of the stanzas because he thought it was too Catholic.

The hymnal from Brompton sounds good.
 
Ruth_Catherine said:
Oh,I agree. There are protestant hymns that don’t need to be wrote off, it just seems we are writing off a lot of Catholic hymns. I didn’t learn myself all the traditional Catholic hymns and I feel like I have missed out on something great. I am trying to learn them now. They are beautiful. This morning at adoration we sang very beautiful hymns adoring the sacrament. It would be so great to pass these on to our Catholic youth.

My meaning in my post earlier was not that a protestant could not write a good hymn but that he more than likely would not write a traditional Catholic hymn.

Also, Matthew Bridges was Catholic when he wrote Crown Him with Many Crowns. It was later Godfrey Thring changed some of the stanzas because he thought it was too Catholic.

The hymnal from Brompton sounds good.
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Great - thanks for clarifying and sorry that I misunderstood you.
 
I don’t think anyone responded to my question awhile ago regarding WHEN during the mass these hymns are being sung. Can someone give me examples? Many of the hymns mentioned are nice, but do not fit in with what is going on during the mass. They seem to be occasions for “let’s sing something now” randomly inserted, like a commercial on television.
 
Eugenius said:
I don’t think anyone responded to my question awhile ago regarding WHEN during the mass these hymns are being sung. Can someone give me examples? Many of the hymns mentioned are nice, but do not fit in with what is going on during the mass. They seem to be occasions for “let’s sing something now” randomly inserted, like a commercial on television.
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No that’s not the way it is supposed to be. Hymns are supposed to reflect the liturgical year so in advent a hymn like Lo He comes with Clouds descending or Come thou long expected Jesus would be appropriate. Also they can be picked depending on the position in the liturgy: for example Sweet Sacrament Divine makes a perfect post-communion hymn.

The problem in Catholic churches is that hymn selection is often done so thoughtlessly that people rightly wonder what relevance the hymn has.
 
I know there is a thread out there about creating your own liturgy or something like that.

If there is one thing about the EF I would change , it is the incorporation of more hymns, maybe at the processional.

We have an Adoremus hymnal in the pew and for the seven months I have been attending the EF, the only sungs I have sung are:

– Holy God We Praise thy name
– Salve Regina (after every mass, except for the Requiem mass)
– Oh Salutaris Hostia and Pangue Lingua (during adoration). I think those are in the hymnal as well.

The hymnal has over 500 pages.

When are Catholics supposed to learn the hymns that are in our tradition?
 
TrueLight said:
I know there is a thread out there about creating your own liturgy or something like that.

If there is one thing about the EF I would change , it is the incorporation of more hymns, maybe at the processional.

We have an Adoremus hymnal in the pew and for the seven months I have been attending the EF, the only sungs I have sung are:

– Holy God We Praise thy name
– Salve Regina (after every mass, except for the Requiem mass)
– Oh Salutaris Hostia and Pangue Lingua (during adoration). I think those are in the hymnal as well.

The hymnal has over 500 pages.

When are Catholics supposed to learn the hymns that are in our tradition?
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Well isn’t singing other hymns your priest’s prerogative? I’m sure you could convince him to allow other songs.
 
TrueLight said:
If there is one thing about the EF I would change , it is the incorporation of more hymns, maybe at the processional.
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That may not work very well as people may still be singing some non-Mass hymn when the Prayers at the Foot of the Altar are said. At our parish, the Introit is chanted by the choir during the processional. It leads into the Mass perfectly.

The recessional hymn, no problem, unless the Last Gospel becomes the recessional prayer of the priest (as it once was).

Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on one’s viewpoint) that doesn’t leave much window for any hymns to be sung by the congregation during the EF.
 
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