can we have a discussion with Muslims without getting angry

[Montalban]

The fact that Christians and Muslims are working together in many areas isn’t going to go away, no matter how many times one quotes the Koran at it. Peace

I don’t deny that Christians and Moslems get on well with one another.

My Moslem neighbour gave me a lift when I missed the bus.

However your attempting to judge the religion based on actions of people in the faith, without regard if what they are doing is connected to their faith.

To this ends I’ve cited Koranic verses and Islamic experts advising Moslems not to have close friendships with non-Moslems. They do this because they think we’re deceivers; having been given a message from their god and then mucking it up.

You counter that you know so people doings good based on Islam. What verses are inspiring them? You offer no connection between thought and deed. Your whole line of apology is thus flawed.

Let me example the opposite to demonstrate this. If as a child you were bullied by Hindus and you hated them ever since the fact you know some examples yourself does in no way link the persons actions with the faith.

Thus simply because my neighbour gave me a lift I don’t judge all Moslems to be wonderful people. I look to him as an example of a kind ‘person’ who happens to be Moslem.

 

[exoflare]

In this circumstance, they are working together because of their respective faiths and not inspite of them.

This is absolutely false. If the Quran explicitly states to all Muslims (and it does) not to take non-muslims as friends or protectors, then any instance of a Muslim allying with a Christian goes against Islam.

Again, the Muslims who genuinely do this are doing so in spite of their faith!

 

[Montalban]

This is absolutely false. If the Quran explicitly states to all Muslims (and it does) not to take non-muslims as friends or protectors, then any instance of a Muslim allying with a Christian goes against Islam.

Again, the Muslims who genuinely do this are doing so in spite of their faith!

Indeed he’s not shown any evidence between their ‘good deeds’ and their faith, other than the heresay evidence provided by himself. Not wholly convincing.

 

[Montalban]

In this circumstance, they are working together because of their respective faiths and not inspite of them.

Show me the connection, beyond you saying it is so.

 

[Khalfan]

Which has what relevance to the question?
social distinction is a false argument

You don’t deserve an answer from a Muslim. What you want is a support for your comment. You don’t understand that, facing the fact is applicable to you as well.

Untill you are not ready to learn it from a muslim scholar, you won’t have the chance to learn what Islam is.

 

[Khalfan]

I don’t deny that Christians and Moslems get on well with one another.

My Moslem neighbour gave me a lift when I missed the bus.

However your attempting to judge the religion based on actions of people in the faith, without regard if what they are doing is connected to their faith.

To this ends I’ve cited Koranic verses and Islamic experts advising Moslems not to have close friendships with non-Moslems. They do this because they think we’re deceivers; having been given a message from their god and then mucking it up.

You counter that you know so people doings good based on Islam. What verses are inspiring them? You offer no connection between thought and deed. Your whole line of apology is thus flawed.

Let me example the opposite to demonstrate this. If as a child you were bullied by Hindus and you hated them ever since the fact you know some examples yourself does in no way link the persons actions with the faith.

Thus simply because my neighbour gave me a lift I don’t judge all Moslems to be wonderful people. I look to him as an example of a kind ‘person’ who happens to be Moslem.

Since you are a deciever, what is wrong in thinking so?

 

[jack_hawkins]

You don’t deserve an answer from a Muslim. What you want is a support for your comment. You don’t understand that, facing the fact is applicable to you as well.

Untill you are not ready to learn it from a muslim scholar, you won’t have the chance to learn what Islam is.

That last sentence makes no sense at all. Read it back to yourself Khalfan. Actually the whole post doesn’t make much sense to be honest.
As for your po-faced pronouncement, I have learnt plenty about Islam from Mohammedan posters on FFI. Enough to know that even Muslims often don’t know some of the unsavoury facts about Mohammed for example.
Nice way to make friends BTW calling someone a deceiver - next you’ll be calling us jinns which one Mohammedan told me I was
would you like to be called a Saudi Arabian wannabe neopagan moon god worshipper? probably not!

 

[Khalfan]

The evidence from my ‘experts’ still stands. You might be right insofar as this verse came about in response to a certain event, however there’s no ‘end-date’ for its recommendations. Until you can show me a verse abrogating it, then it still stands, as does the opinion of my experts who at least have understood this.

I think, you started understanding something. Those verse are valid only in certain situations, and are valid until end of days.

This assumes that anyone who disagrees with you hasn’t done so. You should write to the clerics

No. That is not true. Why do you argue with your confirmative allegation? Any Muslim will accept your discrepencies, but no one will answer you till you want to know the answer.

 

[Khalfan]

That last sentence makes no sense at all. Read it back to yourself Khalfan. Actually the whole post doesn’t make much sense to be honest.
As for your po-faced pronouncement, I have learnt plenty about Islam from Mohammedan posters on FFI. Enough to know that even Muslims often don’t know some of the unsavoury facts about Mohammed for example.
Nice way to make friends BTW calling someone a deceiver - next you’ll be calling us jinns which one Mohammedan told me I was
would you like to be called a Saudi Arabian wannabe neopagan moon god worshipper? probably not!

You proved what I said. Thank you.

 

[jack_hawkins]

You proved what I said. Thank you.

what exactly did you say, because I don’t read fractured English too well
I’m sorry I just have to puncture the overinflated egos of verbose schoolboys whenever I can!

 

[Khalfan]

If we must believe, as revealed by Jesus Christ, that Jesus is the fulfillment (the end product) of salvation,… that there simply will not be another prophet of God, then anyone who claims to be another prophet MUST be a false prophet.

Therefore, the Quran is a false teaching,… though it may contain some interesting philosophical insight.

If the Quran is false, then Islam is nonsense.

If Islam is nonsense, then we (moslems and Christians) can regard each other as we mutually like,… and Christians (tend to) regard moslems as they regard any other non-believer in Christ,… which is as one who is to be respected as persons, possessing of free will to choose how they may live, and who should be educated in the Truth of the Word (Christ Jesus).

And because of the inherent utter-incompatibility between Islam and Christianity, a study of the Quran simply shows us (Christians) the way moslems think,… and that gives us an opportunity to educate them in the Truth.

And if the truth is so “valued” by moslems, why is Christianity OUTLAWED in many moslem countries?

The reason is that Islam fears the Truth, because Islam is a political, and not a religious, movement, and the currency of political things is POWER over the people, not power from the people.

Islam wishes to establish an empire of “goodfellas”.

Christianity wishes to establish an empire of the poor.

When Islam is ready to agree to disagree about things, and allow everyone to talk to each other without resorting ot violence,… then Islam will be mature enough to call itself yet another “denomination” of the divine Trinity’s worshippers.

Until then,… it’s just another juvenile monotheistic cult.

Do you know what you believing in?

 

[jack_hawkins]

Do you know what you believing in?

Do you?
(almost certainly not)

 

[Montalban]

Since you are a deciever, what is wrong in thinking so?

You’re more than welcome to show the ‘end-date’ verse that abrogates these verses about non-Moslem friends. Which is something I’ve expected you to show.

Or, you can just continue with personal insults.

Which do you think best advertises Islam?

 

[Montalban]

Khalfan:

I think, you started understanding something. Those verse are valid only in certain situations, and are valid until end of days.

The ‘situations’ as you call them are that they are never to have close friends with non-Moslems. There’s nothing in this advice that gives a limited interpretation as you would have us believe. This is the ‘situation’ in a nut-shell; Islam’s permanently at war with non-Islam.

Montalban:

This assumes that anyone who disagrees with you hasn’t done so. You should write to the clerics

Khalfan:

No. That is not true. Why do you argue with your confirmative allegation? Any Muslim will accept your discrepancies, but no one will answer you till you want to know the answer.

I see a collection of words in English here, but they’re not connected into anything meaningful.

The simple point is you claim that these verses are limited to war, based on your own interpretation. There’s nothing in the verses to say that they’re forever limited to this - given that you guys believe Christians and Jews always lie about religion. There’s simply no limitation as you believe. The clerics have spoken and they agree with me.

Moslems believe Christians and Jews, simply by practicing our faiths, are lying. It’s why you’re prevented from allowing a wife to openly and freely practice her faith, if she’s non-Moslem; because you think it’s evil.

“Thou seest many of them turning in friendship to the Unbelievers (non-Muslims). Evil indeed are (the works) which their souls have sent forward before them (with the result), that Allah’s wrath is on them, and in torment will they abide.”
(Koran 5:80)
2 – Islam allows marriage to a Christian or Jewish woman, i.e., it permits a man to marry such a woman whilst she continues to follow her religion. The husband does not have the right to force her to become Muslim, or to stop her worshipping in her own way. But he does have the right to forbid her to go out of the house, even if she is going to go out to go to church, because she is commanded to obey him. **He also has the right to forbid her to commit evil openly in the house, such as setting up statues or ringing bells. **

That also includes celebrating innovated festivals, such as Easter, because that is an evil action according to Islam, in two ways
islamqa.com/index.php?ref=70177&ln=eng

Not only can he forbid her from going out…

“It is not permissible for a Muslim to allow his wife from among the People of the Book to celebrate her festivals in his home,”
islamqa.com/index.php?ref=3320&ln=eng

It is not permissible to attend wedding parties that involve evil actions, such as singing that is accompanied by music or that includes indecent words. The fact that this is widespread among people does not mean that it is permissible and should not be denounced.

islamqa.com/index.php?ref=45789&ln=eng

 

[Khalfan]

You’re more than welcome to show the ‘end-date’ verse that abrogates these verses about non-Moslem friends. Which is something I’ve expected you to show.

To you too. I do show my non-Muslim friends, what a Muslim is from the the way I deal with them. They too understand me very well.

Or, you can just continue with personal insults.

Sorry if I hurt you, but i have to tell you, your attitude to Islam or to any Muslim is wrong. You are hurting us by illogical allegations, instead of asking a Muslim scholar. You are spreading wrong answers for right questions (Any Muslim will accept your questions). You seems not interested to know the answer from the right source. We Muslims doesn’t consider all others as stupids, but you think we are stupids to believe in Quran even after much discrepencies in it, before understanding those are not really discrepencies.

Which do you think best advertises Islam?

I don’t want advertise Islam. But there is a message to convay. Islam is not the best, but the true way of life. Quran is not the unique book, but the only true message of GOD. Muslim is not those terrorists, but the one who respect every living creature.

Then why there is discrepencies and contradictions? Ask a Scholar who answer you with the details. Always be known that, all the Mulims are not well known with the details of Quran like it is any other religion.

 

[Montalban]

To you too. I do show my non-Muslim friends, what a Muslim is from the the way I deal with them. They too understand me very well.

Angry?
I’m seeing red, myself!

The only reason I’m aware of for Moslems being allowed to have ‘friends’ is simply to convert them. You seem to be suggesting this.

It’s not really ‘friendship’ then, it’s like born-again Christians “love-bombing” people

 

[Khalfan]

The ‘situations’ as you call them are that they are never to have close friends with non-Moslems. There’s nothing in this advice that gives a limited interpretation as you would have us believe. This is the ‘situation’ in a nut-shell; Islam’s permanently at war with non-Islam.

A Muslim telling you, we are not in war. You don’t agree. You want a non-Muslim to tell you the same? will you agree? No. because you want to stick with your quote. That doesn’t make sense to me.

I see a collection of words in English here, but they’re not connected into anything meaningful.

The simple point is you claim that these verses are limited to war, based on your own interpretation. There’s nothing in the verses to say that they’re forever limited to this - given that you guys believe Christians and Jews always lie about religion. There’s simply no limitation as you believe. The clerics have spoken and they agree with me.

Christians and jews do lie about GOD. Want me to prove?

Moslems believe Christians and Jews, simply by practicing our faiths, are lying. It’s why you’re prevented from allowing a wife to openly and freely practice her faith, if she’s non-Moslem; because you think it’s evil.

“Thou seest many of them turning in friendship to the Unbelievers (non-Muslims). Evil indeed are (the works) which their souls have sent forward before them (with the result), that Allah’s wrath is on them, and in torment will they abide.”
(Koran 5:80)

The situation of the verse alredy explained. During war only.

2 – Islam allows marriage to a Christian or Jewish woman, i.e., it permits a man to marry such a woman whilst she continues to follow her religion. The husband does not have the right to force her to become Muslim, or to stop her worshipping in her own way. But he does have the right to forbid her to go out of the house, even if she is going to go out to go to church, because she is commanded to obey him. **He also has the right to forbid her to commit evil openly in the house, such as setting up statues or ringing bells. **

That also includes celebrating innovated festivals, such as Easter, because that is an evil action according to Islam, in two ways
islamqa.com/index.php?ref=70177&ln=eng

Not only can he forbid her from going out…

“It is not permissible for a Muslim to allow his wife from among the People of the Book to celebrate her festivals in his home,”
islamqa.com/index.php?ref=3320&ln=eng

It is not permissible to attend wedding parties that involve evil actions, such as singing that is accompanied by music or that includes indecent words. The fact that this is widespread among people does not mean that it is permissible and should not be denounced.

islamqa.com/index.php?ref=45789&ln=eng

I think it would be better, if you don’t allow any non-Muslim women to get married to a Muslim.

 

[Khalfan]

Angry?
I’m seeing red, myself!

The only reason I’m aware of for Moslems being allowed to have ‘friends’ is simply to convert them. You seem to be suggesting this.

It’s not really ‘friendship’ then, it’s like born-again Christians “love-bombing” people

Now I understand your real problem. Don’t worry about Christianity, but knowing the truth is not a sin. Still, Christians do that sin, because they know that GOD paid for it.

 

[Khalfan]

Do you?
(almost certainly not)

I do. If you do, answer me. The questions are here.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=137926

Watch some real Christians and Christianity here.

aswatalislam.net/DisplayFilesP.aspx?TitleID=50018&TitleName=Shabir_Ally

aswatalislam.net/DisplayFilesP.aspx?TitleID=50027&TitleName=Zakir_Naik

aswatalislam.net/DisplayFilesP.aspx?TitleID=50016&TitleName=Ahmed_Deedat

 

[Khalfan]

If we must believe, as revealed by Jesus Christ, that Jesus is the fulfillment (the end product) of salvation,… that there simply will not be another prophet of God, then anyone who claims to be another prophet MUST be a false prophet.

Therefore, the Quran is a false teaching,… though it may contain some interesting philosophical insight.

If the Quran is false, then Islam is nonsense.

If Islam is nonsense, then we (moslems and Christians) can regard each other as we mutually like,… and Christians (tend to) regard moslems as they regard any other non-believer in Christ,… which is as one who is to be respected as persons, possessing of free will to choose how they may live, and who should be educated in the Truth of the Word (Christ Jesus).

And because of the inherent utter-incompatibility between Islam and Christianity, a study of the Quran simply shows us (Christians) the way moslems think,… and that gives us an opportunity to educate them in the Truth.

And if the truth is so “valued” by moslems, why is Christianity OUTLAWED in many moslem countries?

The reason is that Islam fears the Truth, because Islam is a political, and not a religious, movement, and the currency of political things is POWER over the people, not power from the people.

Islam wishes to establish an empire of “goodfellas”.

Christianity wishes to establish an empire of the poor.

When Islam is ready to agree to disagree about things, and allow everyone to talk to each other without resorting ot violence,… then Islam will be mature enough to call itself yet another “denomination” of the divine Trinity’s worshippers.

Until then,… it’s just another juvenile monotheistic cult.

Answer me if you are true Christian.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=137926

Watch some real Christians and Christianity here.

aswatalislam.net/DisplayFilesP.aspx?TitleID=50018&TitleName=Shabir_Ally

aswatalislam.net/DisplayFilesP.aspx?TitleID=50027&TitleName=Zakir_Naik

aswatalislam.net/DisplayFilesP.aspx?TitleID=50016&TitleName=Ahmed_Deedat