can we have a discussion with Muslims without getting angry

[Michelle2006]

I am often afraid to post on threads discussing topics with Muslims. It makes me very sad see Catholics who I strongly respect getting so angry. It isn’t that I agree with Islam-I’d be Muslim if I did- but I don’t understand why we can’t have mature discussions with one another without getting so angry. Can we just treat one another with common courtesy?

Well gosh Deb, maybe things like this have something to do with it? I recommend everyone watch this entire video. Especially the tu quoque attitude I see a lot of here.

video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=2668560761490749816&q=dispatches+mosque&pr=goog-sl

 

[Michelle2006]

The last line of my previous post should read “Especially those of you with the tu quoque attitude …”

 

[slyboots]

When I was 13 years old, many years ago, I lived in a small university town. My girlfriends and I would ride our bikes on campus on the weekends on the way to a park on the other side. Or along a side street to get home from the pool (one piece bathing suits with coverups).
The only college students we ever had problems with were the “Persians”. That’s where they said they came from. There were quite a few of them in our town.
Thirteen year old girls 40 years ago did not dress provocatively in my hometown. Yes we wore capris and shorts. But our shirts didn’t show our middles. We wore tennis shoes and socks. By today’s standards we were very covered.
Persian (Iranian) male students would walk out in front of us to stop us. Other times they would drop something in our bike paths and then as we tumbled pretend to rescue us.
They made remarks about our teen aged legs and other body parts which was uncovered. They praised us rather too extravagantly. Even after we made it clear we wanted them to leave us alone. They had to know we were teens, not college girls. They frightened us by their agression.
Our parents found out. And forbade us to cross the campus.
I don’t think the students were ever spoken to.
They were not Christians. I believe I can safely say they were Muslims.
It does still color my opinion, sadly.

 

[Khalfan]

So, what are you saying? That the salvation history of Islam has evolved, like the Judeo Christian? Are you saying all those verses about killing unbelievers are being taken out of context? Are you saying that the radical Muslims that are doing suicide bombings don’t understand their faith?

No. Those suicide bombers have their own reason to use those verses to kill themselves and other innocents. As an Indian, I have to tell you a bit Indian history here. We got freedom from British Empire just about 60years back. Before that, there were a lot of suicide bombers and terrorist worked against British people, which we call freedom fighters. They were indeed bloody terrorists or suicide bombers in the eyes of British. But we call them freedom fighters. Why? It is the perceptive of each person makes us give them the name terrorist or freedom fighters.

Now here, in the case of suicide bombers who use Quran to kill people will have to answer on judgment day for their deeds. As far as I know, killing innocents even in war is prohibited in Islam. Killing of Children, women, old people, those who don’t fight, prisoners of war, robbery, destroying buildings, trees and farms were prohibited strictly. There were 60 wars happened during 23 years of prophet. Only 1018 people dead from all those wars. 259 Muslims and 759 Non-Muslims.

Even in India, Muslim emperors ruled India for 800-900 years until freedom in 1947. Didn’t they know those verses? They knew and they knew where to use that. If were killing non-Muslims because of these verses, even a single non-Muslim wouldn’t exist in India today. In fact, 87% of the people are Non-Muslims today. Muslims are only 13%.

I tell you again, if there is anyone uses those verses of Quran to kill innocents, will be accountable for that in front of GOD.

 

[Montalban]

Yaa. I can see that.
That’s a lie. The verse was to use in a war between Muslims and Christians 1400 years ago. Now it is applicable only in religious wars. Wait a minute… who is calling up for a war here? is it you, the heart decent guy?

No, it’s not a lie. Islam is permanently ‘at war’ with the non-Islamic world. I’m not calling for a war, you guys are. I’m simply noting what you guys are doing.

It is not permissible for a Muslim man or woman to take a male or female friend who is not a Muslim, because Allaah has forbidden us to love the kuffaar or take them as close friends and companions
islamqa.com/index.php?ref=69876&ln=eng

Allaah has forbidden the believers to take the kaafireen (disbelievers) as friends, and He has issued a stern warning against doing that.
islamqa.com/index.php?ref=59879&ln=eng

You’re not even considered a ‘brother’ of a Muslim
"Question: Does not brotherhood extend to all of mankind because it is established that Aadam was the forefather of everyone?
Response: This is not so. There is no doubt that everyone is from the offspring of Aadam but we do not say, “This is my brother,” when referring to a disbeliever meaning by that within the brotherhood of man. We can only refer to him as brother when there is a relationship by descent or lineage.
fatwa-online.com/fataawa/muslimminorities/0000920_5.htm

 

[Montalban]

I accept that you don’t belive it, but be reassured, they do.

See post #298

 

[Montalban]

Read Exodus 22:19, 2 Chronicles 15:12-13, Deuteronomy 13:7-12, 13-19, 17:2-5, Numbers 25:1-9. Isn’t it asking you christians to kill all non-Christians? How do you explain that?

Understanding the situation, where those commands should be applied is very important.

ROFL. These books were written before Christianity. Still, if you can’t defend your own faith, it’s always good to attack ours! And you say you’re not at war!

 

[Khalfan]

ROFL. These books were written before Christianity. Still, if you can’t defend your own faith, it’s always good to attack ours! And you say you’re not at war!

My dear, haven’t you read the note below?

I said, those verses from Bible have a situation where it was applied. You said since it was prior to Christianity, it is invalid. The verses from Quran also have situations where it should be applied and it is in a war.

I said, understanding the situations is important whether it is possible to you or not.

 

[Montalban]

My dear, haven’t you read the note below?

I said, those verses from Bible have a situation where it was applied. You said since it was prior to Christianity, it is invalid. The verses from Quran also have situations where it should be applied and it is in a war.

I said, understanding the situations is important whether it is possible to you or not.

I cited a couple of Islamic experts that say you should not have close friendships with non-Moslems NOW.

Maybe you missed that.

If you wish to deal with these experts on Islam, please do.

There’s no “New Testament” of the Koran. Those verses have not been abrogated, despite your opinion otherwise.

But yes, I do note that you recognised that the OT was not ordering Christians to kill. My apologies.

 

[Khalfan]

Dear, I told you. Those verses were revealed to Prophet. He explained what it is.

In the last stages of prophetic mission in Medinah, Muslims had emerged as a dominant power and had set up a society of their own. At the same time, the polytheists of Makkah as well as Jews and Christians had also established setups and in case of an armed conflict, it seemed that any of them could have emerged as victorious. In such an environment the hypocrites amongst Muslims maintained ties with Jews and Christians and supported them in secret. Their support was in order to safeguard their interests with whoever the victorious party would be. In addition, the hypocrites obviously had not accepted Islam from within their hearts and their conversion to Islam had not affected their ties with Muslims’ opponents.

It is in this context that Quran revealed the following verses specifically admonishing these hypocrites amongst Muslims:

“O believers, do not take the Jews and the Christians as your friends and protectors, they are friends of each other. And whoever makes them a friend then he is from amongst them. Verily God does not guide the unjust people. And you will see that those (Muslims) in whose hearts is a disease run towards them saying ‘We fear that a calamity may befall us.’ So God will soon bring victory or a decision from Him, causing them regret on account of the thoughts they harbored in their hearts.” (Quran 5:51-52)
The explanation above should depict the correct meaning of the verses under discussion.

In addition to the general context, it should also be noted that Quran has used the words ‘the Jews’ and ‘the Christians’ making it very clear that it is a specific group of Jews and Christians and this verse is not a general prescription. The attitude of these people has been explained further in the following verses for instance:

“O you who believe! do not take for friends and protectors those who take your religion for a mockery and a joke, from among those who were given the Book before you and the unbelievers; and be careful of (your duty to) Allah if you are believers. And when you call to prayer they make it a mockery and a joke; this is because they are a people who do not understand.” (Quran 5:57-58)
As it can be clearly seen, the Jews and Christians mentioned above are those ‘who take your religion for a mockery and a joke.’

In view of the above explanation, I believe these verses should not be taken to be a general directive of our relationship with Jews and Christians. Instead our relationship with the people of other faiths should only be avoided when it becomes harmful for Muslims, and otherwise we should feel free to enjoy a comfortable relationship with our Jew and Christian brothers and sisters.

God does not hate Jews, Christians or other non-Muslims. God has cursed those Jews, Christians, non-Muslims and even Muslims who knowingly reject the truth. It happened that during the time of the last messenger of God, Muhammad (pbuh), a number of Jews, Christians, polytheists and even those who called themselves Muslims knew that the message brought forth was a message from God, yet they did not accept it because of their mundane desires. At the same time, many non-Muslims who had submitted completely to God earned his pleasure. Of course, when one submits completely to God and they realize that a message different than theirs is from God, then they try to be the first ones to accept it.

This implies that even Muslims are not exempt and everyone, including Muslims, must strive to find the truth in an unbiased manner and live by it. If this effort requires one to change their beliefs, then they must do so. A study of Quran will show you that this is the basic spirit that Quran instill in an individual. And this teaching is not peculiar to Quran or Islam, it is put forth in the Old and New Testaments too. A study of bible reveals that God judges people based on their attitude towards Him, His messengers and His teachings.

I humbly request that you study the book of God, Quran, verse by verse irrespective of how slow your study be, and try to understand it.

islamway.com/english/images/library/nonmuslims/miller.htm

 

[Khalfan]

I cited a couple of Islamic experts that say you should not have close friendships with non-Moslems NOW.

Maybe you missed that.

If you wish to deal with these experts on Islam, please do.

There’s no “New Testament” of the Koran. Those verses have not been abrogated, despite your opinion otherwise.

But yes, I do note that you recognised that the OT was not ordering Christians to kill. My apologies.

The last post will clear our attitude with non-muslims.

I myself keep a goo drelation with non-muslims. I don’t have to quote it from any site.

I told you, those verses from Quran are still valid but in certain situations only, like war. (I don’t know how to make you understand that, even after being a muslim, I am explaining how I deal with others)

Was those OT verses valid before Christ? Was it allowed to kill non-christians just like that? (Just a curiosity)

 

[jack_hawkins]

Khalfan, do you think many people will have the stamina to read the Koran? It is dreadfully repetitive and tedious! Also people will find plenty of things Muslims prefer not to talk about. You claim Mohammed didn’t hate the Jews - well the bits of the Koran I read it was a constant theme! And just look at the actions and attitudes of Muslims to the Jews here and now! I’ve heard Muslims curse the Jews many times. Anti-Semitic incidents are up more than anti-Mohammedan attacks are up.
The peaceful verses of the Koran are claimed to be the ones that apply now. In fact, it is the sword verses etc that apply, as they come later. When Mohammed needed a hudna, he made peace so he could gather his strength - then he broke the truce and attacked when strong enough (during Ramadan IIRC).
Do you have any non-Muslims as close friends Khalfan?

 

[Khalfan]

Khalfan, do you think many people will have the stamina to read the Koran? It is dreadfully repetitive and tedious! Also people will find plenty of things Muslims prefer not to talk about. You claim Mohammed didn’t hate the Jews - well the bits of the Koran I read it was a constant theme! And just look at the actions and attitudes of Muslims to the Jews here and now! I’ve heard Muslims curse the Jews many times. Anti-Semitic incidents are up more than anti-Mohammedan attacks are up.
The peaceful verses of the Koran are claimed to be the ones that apply now. In fact, it is the sword verses etc that apply, as they come later. When Mohammed needed a hudna, he made peace so he could gather his strength - then he broke the truce and attacked when strong enough (during Ramadan IIRC).
Do you have any non-Muslims as close friends Khalfan?

Are you a Christian?

 

[jack_hawkins]

Are you a Christian?

Which has what relevance to the question?
social distinction is a false argument

 

[El_Paulo]

See post #298

The fact that Christians and Muslims are working together in many areas isn’t going to go away, no matter how many times one quotes the Koran at it. Peace

 

[cestusdei]

Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. I have read the quran and found no way, no truth, and no life. It can’t even begin to compare with the words of Christ in the gospels. If you want to know the truth about God then go to the source. His Word Jesus Christ.

 

[exoflare]

The fact that Christians and Muslims are working together in many areas isn’t going to go away, no matter how many times one quotes the Koran at it. Peace

This is despite what they are taught. Thankfully most Muslims don’t follow their religion to the letter…

 

[El_Paulo]

This is despite what they are taught. Thankfully most Muslims don’t follow their religion to the letter…

In this circumstance, they are working together because of their respective faiths and not inspite of them.

 

[Keikiolu]

…{snip}…

God does not hate Jews, Christians or other non-Muslims. God has cursed those Jews, Christians, non-Muslims and even Muslims who knowingly reject the truth. It happened that during the time of the last messenger of God, Muhammad (pbuh), a number of Jews, Christians, polytheists and even those who called themselves Muslims knew that the message brought forth was a message from God, yet they did not accept it because of their mundane desires.

If we must believe, as revealed by Jesus Christ, that Jesus is the fulfillment (the end product) of salvation,… that there simply will not be another prophet of God, then anyone who claims to be another prophet MUST be a false prophet.

Therefore, the Quran is a false teaching,… though it may contain some interesting philosophical insight.

If the Quran is false, then Islam is nonsense.

If Islam is nonsense, then we (moslems and Christians) can regard each other as we mutually like,… and Christians (tend to) regard moslems as they regard any other non-believer in Christ,… which is as one who is to be respected as persons, possessing of free will to choose how they may live, and who should be educated in the Truth of the Word (Christ Jesus).

At the same time, many non-Muslims who had submitted completely to God earned his pleasure. Of course, when one submits completely to God and they realize that a message different than theirs is from God, then they try to be the first ones to accept it.

This implies that even Muslims are not exempt and everyone, including Muslims, must strive to find the truth in an unbiased manner and live by it. If this effort requires one to change their beliefs, then they must do so. A study of Quran will show you that this is the basic spirit that Quran instill in an individual. And this teaching is not peculiar to Quran or Islam, it is put forth in the Old and New Testaments too. A study of bible reveals that God judges people based on their attitude towards Him, His messengers and His teachings.

And because of the inherent utter-incompatibility between Islam and Christianity, a study of the Quran simply shows us (Christians) the way moslems think,… and that gives us an opportunity to educate them in the Truth.

And if the truth is so “valued” by moslems, why is Christianity OUTLAWED in many moslem countries?

The reason is that Islam fears the Truth, because Islam is a political, and not a religious, movement, and the currency of political things is POWER over the people, not power from the people.

Islam wishes to establish an empire of “goodfellas”.

Christianity wishes to establish an empire of the poor.

When Islam is ready to agree to disagree about things, and allow everyone to talk to each other without resorting ot violence,… then Islam will be mature enough to call itself yet another “denomination” of the divine Trinity’s worshippers.

Until then,… it’s just another juvenile monotheistic cult.

 

[Montalban]

Dear, I told you. Those verses were revealed to Prophet. He explained what it is.

The evidence from my ‘experts’ still stands. You might be right insofar as this verse came about in response to a certain event, however there’s no ‘end-date’ for its recommendations. Until you can show me a verse abrogating it, then it still stands, as does the opinion of my experts who at least have understood this.

I humbly request that you study the book of God, Quran, verse by verse irrespective of how slow your study be, and try to understand it.

This assumes that anyone who disagrees with you hasn’t done so. You should write to the clerics