can we have a discussion with Muslims without getting angry

[tamccrackine]

I am kind of sad because I am new here but I have a feeling you guys are about to Hate me for what I am about to say.

I noticed a few mentioned what our soldiers have seen done by those who claim they are a religion of peace. You only hear what the media allows you to hear. When atrocities actually make it to the media it is downplayed, or the story is never followed through any further. I am an American, but I know my country is guilty of many things. Why do we always assume we are entirly innocent when it come to Muslim conflicts?

You can go ahead and quote me because, so far, I’m the only one that talked about our soldiers directly in the manner in which you’ve described. And unlike your massively WRONG assumption… I am NOT talking about learning what our soldiers think coming from the media. 1)I am a soldier. 2) I am an Army Brat with a father that is still active duty 3)I am married to a soldier that JUST returned from a tour of duty in Iraq.

So while you want to romaticize what I’m talking about and assuming I’m drawing irrational conclusions from the media, I continue to listen to my husband describe HORROR and other atrocities that terrorists dish out on a daily basis that is NOT portrayed in the media. And unless your friends are disobeying a direct order of publishing classified information about what’s going on over there over an unsecure media… you ain’t getting the full truth.

You even said it yourself that we should google the information you provided. So in a nutshell, you have no more information than the media, while real soldiers and their families do have a better understanding of how things really are “over there.”

So what I’m hearing from my husband, and based off my own opinions of having actually dealt with Muslims, yes… I will always distrust them until they give me a reason to trust them. I am in total agreeance with the Pope when he talked about reason and Islam. It hasn’t made you even sit back and think for a second the sheer violence that erupted over their own misinterpretation of what he said? Instead of asking him what he meant, the instantly resorted to violence. That type of mentality has NOTHING to do with “anger issues” due to a few stupid US soliders (and yes, we have a few).

By the way, the sins of a few of our soldiers and broad brushing them ALL as terrorists (which is what you’ve tried to do) is about as bad as trying to tell a non US citizen that our entire country is horrible based off the murder rate of New Orleans therefore the US must be a bad country full of violence.

Do I hate you? Nope… just find your entire post ill-thought out.

 

[Montalban]

We are witnesses to Catholicism on this forum.

By ‘we’ you mean you and others.

There are people who come here and never post who are looking for the truth. Sadly, it seems that people don’t absorb what others are saying so much as how it is said. So, if you have the absolute truth and report it but do so in a rude manner, people are going to lean toward the person who is speaking more kindly.

Do I agree with this thinking? NO! But I’ve seen it time and time again. People go with their emotions and not their logic.

If you really do want to defeat injustice then you should do so in a way that actually works.

On this board we have the option to edit ourselves and think through our reply. Therefore do what works and force yourself to reply in a polite manner, even if you have to mutter angrily to yourself while doing so. Being polite on this forum will win more people to your side.

The problem with criticism of Islam is any and all is deemed to be an insult

 

[deb1]

By ‘we’ you mean you and others.

The problem with criticism of Islam is any and all is deemed to be an insult

No. I mean you, too ,Montalban. Sorry. But once you become a Christian you become an automatic ambassador for Christ.

Besides, imagine some Catholic woman is deciding if she should convert to Islam. She will be influended by ***how ***you write your words.

If you give honest criticism to a Muslim and they get insulted then it looks bad on them.

 

[deb1]

.

The instigator had already been deemed a threat, all warning signs were ignored. My uncle told me stories about the Vietnam war, the are similar. The BBC has interviewed quite a few of our soldiers stationed over there, about how they feel about the civilian deaths, he said “we just shoot the closest farmer we see next to us”. Pigs? Dogs? Ask the surviving relatives of that 14 year old girl who the terrorists are. And we are surprised they do not trust us?

But what does this have to do with being polite to Muslims? This is more about one’s opinion on the war and our troops actions.

If you are implying that because of what happens in Iraq, an American or English born Muslim will mistrust his homeland, I don’t think that is true.

We have Muslims in both militarys, by the way. SO, they must feel as patriotic as Christian British and Americans.

I am a bit sensitive over this issue as I lost a dad to Vietnamn, I have a BIL in Iraq. My sister will return to Iraq in May and my hubby is in Afghanistan right now.

 

[Al_Masetti]

I agree absolutely.

No need to get angry.

But all I need to do is to comment that Catholics are expected to turn the other cheek when someone dunks a crucifix into a jar of urine, while Muslims riot when a cartoon is published, or there is a beauty pageant, and all u-no-what breaks loose.

Or, police and newsmedia look the other way when a Muslim goes to a public place and starts killing as many people as possible or drives onto a sidewalk in front of a Jewish senior citizens center to mow down old Jewish folks or … someone gets caught smuggling a carload of high explosives into the United States from Canada with the intent of blowing up LAX … etc. And the individuals involved might have literature stating why they are doing it.

And I might be attacked.

All I’m asking is for the whole story to be told.

I’m not getting angry.

It’s part of what is “terrorist profiling”.

 

[Auriel]

By the way, the sins of a few of our soldiers and broad brushing them ALL as terrorists (which is what you’ve tried to do) is about as bad as trying to tell a non US citizen that our entire country is horrible based off the murder rate of New Orleans therefore the US must be a bad country full of violence.

Do I hate you? Nope… just find your entire post ill-thought out.

QUOTE AURIEL:
I am not Unpatriotic, I have lost quite a few friends over there. Some sent me pictures of beautiful things and beautiful people, and told of the horrors of war. A few were Christians and sometimes they wept at night seeing what the ones on our side who say they were christians were doing.A mother of one told me he was to come home around Christmas, he had a lot to say, He was shocked and dissalusioned over there, but you will never get a chance to hear it, he was the only one killed out of his unit a few days before he was to leave.END QUOTE

So WHERE exactly am I calling every American Soldier a terrorist?

I see everyone misses the point. Several have said here, WE do not trust them, and THEY do not trust us! Maybe I was trying to make a point? Could it be that maybe they have been given reasons not to trust us? I also stated that nothing excused the terrible things that many Muslims have done. And as far as painting every American with the same brush stroke, that appears to be what is being done to Muslims. If I were a Muslim I would be insulted. And I do happen to know a little about the religion. I have read the Bible and I have read the Koran from cover to cover. There are going to be jerks in every religion, and really wonderful people in every religion too.

I stand behind my opinion 100%, just as you do yours. That’s what makes America great, but even our freedom to express ourselves is being threatened, not by the Muslims, by our own government. I did a paper on the Patriot Act. It was also an act of love for me. I find Constitutional law fascinating.

I will say this about Freedom, the Freedoms many think we are fighting for no longer exist. Anyone can be labeled a terrorist, and without proof of any kind whatsoever. People may now be deemed a threat to National Security, and it is impossible for a lawyer to properly defend you because they will not be allowed to see any of the evidence, or know if it even exists, because it all deemed a threat to National security. The checks and balances have been removed and replaced with sneak and peak provisions. There is no one policing the police. FOIA is now useless, The Patriot Act has amended more than 16 statutes. So you may see why I try to remain balanced at look at both sides of issues such as this. Patrotism to me is a word thrown around so more of our future generations are willing to die for politics. Bush screamed once on Capital Hill, “Stop throwing the Constitution in my face,” I will never trust the 100% American Media, or the media from the Middle East, which is why I look at both sides of an issue from both perspectves.

I saw the comment about the Cross being dipped in Urine, that is horrible and has happened, but I do not see the media crying over the Koran that was stomped on, or the pages of the Koran used as toilet paper, or the Koran that was placed in a dog’s mouth. The significance of that act? The Jynns can appear in the form of a dog. That was like giving a holy article to an evil spirit. Just as insulting in my eyes. I imagine they felt as outraged as Christians did when the cross was blasphemed. These abuses havebeen commited by guards in Iraq, Afghanistan, and in Guantánamo, and please do not even get me started on Guantánamo. I refer to the The Fourteenth Amendment Both citizens and non-citizens are entitled to equal protections under the law, including the right to due process (the Fifth Amendment). It’s not happening. We are not as free as our government would like you to think. But we still have more freedom tham many other countries. I wonder for how long though.

 

[heathernoel]

You are just plain wrong. Non citizens are covered under THEIR nations’ rights.

Second, our nation was founded under GOD, not Allah.

 

[Auriel]

You are just plain wrong. Non citizens are covered under THEIR nations’ rights.

Second, our nation was founded under GOD, not Allah.

You do realize that I am quoting from The United States Bill Of Rights right? Perhaps you misunderstood, that is the document that contains an amendment that states non-citizens and visitors are entitled to equal protection under the law. That document that was put in place to limit the powers of the federal government, to protect the rights of all citizens, visitors, and non-citizens on United States territory.The Bill of Rights contains the first ten Amendments to the United States Constitution. Tell the non-citizens and the American citizens being illegally detained for months on end, sometimes years without being formally charged that they have rights. I think they would disagree. I am not angry with you though, so please do not take it that way. From your post I saw that perhaps you were not familar with the U.S. Constitutionial laws.

I never claimed anywhere that our country was founded on Allah, not God. Most of our founding fathers believed in God, but not all viewed God the same way we do. They were all Freemasons however most, one example being George Washington, abided in the “outer portico of the Temple.”

A few like Benjamin Franklin, were in much deeper. He doubted divinity really existed, but stated once that men were so wicked within the structure of religious beliefs, that it was hard to imagine what they would be like without them. I wonder how the 10 bodies discovered came to be
found underneath the former London home of Benjamin Franklin, They were discovered there in 1998 during a restoration and date to the time he actually lived there, Researchers believe that there could be more bodies buried beneath the basement kitchens. It does make one pause and think.

 

[deb1]

I agree absolutely.

No need to get angry.

But all I need to do is to comment that Catholics are expected to turn the other cheek when someone dunks a crucifix into a jar of urine, while Muslims riot when a cartoon is published, or there is a beauty pageant, and all u-no-what breaks loose.

Or, police and newsmedia look the other way when a Muslim goes to a public place and starts killing as many people as possible or drives onto a sidewalk in front of a Jewish senior citizens center to mow down old Jewish folks or … someone gets caught smuggling a carload of high explosives into the United States from Canada with the intent of blowing up LAX … etc. And the individuals involved might have literature stating why they are doing it.

And I might be attacked.

All I’m asking is for the whole story to be told.

I’m not getting angry.

It’s part of what is “terrorist profiling”.

I understand your point and your examples frustrate me also.

 

[timotheos]

can we have a discussion with Muslims without getting angry

I don’t know, but can anyone comment on whether this possibility has merit -

Is anger, or at least a “righteous” anger, more acceptable in Islam than Christianity? Does aligning one’s will with the will of Allah (as interpreted by Mohammed) give you carte blanche with regard to acting in a sense of righteous indignation? Compare to Christianity; aligning one’s will with Jesus does not make you particularly powerful as the world measures power.

Is empowerment of one’s will in this way part of what makes Islam attractive? I can’t help but note the popularity of Islam among young men, who are naturally attracted to power, contrasting with comparatively few in this same demographic in the US who are fervent Christians.

Peace, Timotheos

 

[tamccrackine]

Auriel, I understand what you are saying and where you are going. But just the mere statement of “I’m not unpatriotic” and then it follows with media information that you’ve read about and then you DEMAND that we see if from “their” perspective, then you rhetorically toss out the question of “hmm, I wonder why they hate us.” assuming that this ignores the MASSIVE horrors being really commit… I will question your original proclamation of being “not unpatriotic”.

So no… I did NOT misunderstand you. I read it perfectly clear and yep… I’m well aware of who maintains mine and yours ability to voice our opinions. That same right of voicing opinions goes to holding an opinion and you will be VERY hard pressed to change the mind of a soldier that has had to keep his mouth shut while a Muslim does something so horrendous his (the soldier’s) conscience would never think of doing something like that… and you demand that the soldier worry about the Muslim not trust us? Um, I hate to inform you of this, but that’s been the case since Mohammed (sp?)… so that’s NOTHING new there. The surprise is actually from the massive, ENORMOUS amount of civil and personal restraint our soldiers have shown in the face of adversity and hatred. And please don’t bother posting more googled media articles referencing one or two of our soldiers being idiots to make the blanket comment that “this is the reason Muslims hate us.”

 

[pro_universal]

tammcrackine,

Do you feel that Iraqis and other middle easterners should not blame the United States for crimes committed by Saddam Hussein when Saddam was being supported by the United States?

What about the refusal of US troops to allow captured Iraqi arms to be used by rebelling Shias post-1991 war?

I really feel from your post that you aren’t viewing this situation fairly. If foreign troops came to America in a war that killed about 100,000 people, and then some of those troops were caught raping a young girl and killing her family…I know I would be outraged.

What do you think would’ve been an appropriate way for Iraqis to feel about the Mahmoudiya attack?

 

[tamccrackine]

tammcrackine,

Do you feel that Iraqis and other middle easterners should not blame the United States for crimes committed by Saddam Hussein when Saddam was being supported by the United States?

What about the refusal of US troops to allow captured Iraqi arms to be used by rebelling Shias post-1991 war?

I really feel from your post that you aren’t viewing this situation fairly. If foreign troops came to America in a war that killed about 100,000 people, and then some of those troops were caught raping a young girl and killing her family…I know I would be outraged.

What do you think would’ve been an appropriate way for Iraqis to feel about the Mahmoudiya attack?

Pro, I’ve seen your stance on alot of things and I don’t feel any response I give would be adequate enough for you. You are assuming I don’t have sympathy for when an atrocity happens. You couldn’t be further from the truth.

I do have opinions on everything you’ve asked yet it doesn’t negate the idea I’ve mentioned that to use two or three media infused reports to paint a bad image of the US Army and then tell me that that’s the reason Muslims hate us… um… I’m not buying it. They’ve hated the western world since their formation.

Sorry, but just not going to indulge you in an arguement.

 

[pro_universal]

Pro, I’ve seen your stance on alot of things and I don’t feel any response I give would be adequate enough for you. You are assuming I don’t have sympathy for when an atrocity happens. You couldn’t be further from the truth.

How am I assuming this? I’m not assuming it at all. I was highlighting your claim that Muslims don’t have a right to be angry about these atrocities.

I do have opinions on everything you’ve asked yet it doesn’t negate the idea I’ve mentioned that to use two or three media infused reports to paint a bad image of the US Army and then tell me that that’s the reason Muslims hate us… um… I’m not buying it. They’ve hated the western world since their formation.

Sorry, but just not going to indulge you in an arguement.

Well, it’s not just two or three atrocities. US influence has been to the detriment of everyday Muslims for decades. Your claim that they “hated the western world since their formation” really doesn’t stand up to any evidence. I think a much more likely scenario is one you can understand by just taking a look at a list of US-supported leaders in recent history:

1. Shah Palavi: torture and murder on a scale that at the time was the worst in the middle east, bar none.
2. Saddam Hussein: He received US support, including military, right up until he invaded Kuwait. That means the US backed him all through the gassing of the Kurds, and the million deaths in the Iran-Iraq war.
3. Hosni Mubarak: His police routinely rape and torture political prisoners…some of these stories are making the news. Yet he continues to be one of the biggest recipients of US aid in the entire world.

Don’t you think it makes more sense to believe that these US backed criminals are more responsible for anger towards the US than anything else?

 

[Montalban]

No. I mean you, too ,Montalban. Sorry. But once you become a Christian you become an automatic ambassador for Christ.

Whilst I’m happy to be a witness to Christ, you didn’t say Christ, but…

We are witnesses to Catholicism on this forum.

Besides, imagine some Catholic woman is deciding if she should convert to Islam. She will be influenced by how you write your words.

That depends. Catholics are just as prone to have a belief in liberal relativist clap-trap as any other member of society. Any criticism of Islam would therefore be viewed as some kind of cultural imperialism; because such people believe Islam is the victim

If you give honest criticism to a Muslim and they get insulted then it looks bad on them.

All my criticisms of Islam are honest.

 

[Montalban]

You are just plain wrong. Non citizens are covered under THEIR nations’ rights.

Second, our nation was founded under GOD, not Allah.

That’s not true. Non-citizens in the US aren’t still subject to their own nations laws. Or are you saying that if a US Immigration official arrests a Mexican in Los Angeles he must do so using Mexican arrest procedure?

At best non-citizens who have diplomatic status (and therefore, potentially, immunity) are subject to certain international conventions which US law *probably *recognises

The long-term detention by the US of an Australian citizen David Hicks (held in Guantanamo Bay) is a poor showing for US pretensions to the due process of law.

He is a Moslem convert held since being captured in Afghanistan about 5 years ago and is only just now being formally charged. The court will accept hearsay evidence and that which has been got under duress.

 

[Montalban]

How am I assuming this? I’m not assuming it at all. I was highlighting your claim that Muslims don’t have a right to be angry about these atrocities.

You have stated recently on this very forum, that no one speaks out on crimes committed by certain elements of society.

That is therefore exactly what you do. Any time someone raises an issue of a crime by Moslems you immediately switch to an attack on Christianity and claim no Christian ever speaks up on these matters.

He’s probably seen your posts !

And I’m happy to state my beliefs again for the public record.

I’ve even been kicked and kneed by NSW Police in my support for detention centre people here in Australia, and have never voted Liberal in my life.

However getting back to the subject

Well, it’s not just two or three atrocities. US influence has been to the detriment of everyday Muslims for decades.

Islamic atrocities pre-date the creation of the US by many centuries.

 

[tamccrackine]

Pro, like I said… you assume so much on matters in which you know nothing. I’m not going to get into a debate with you because I don’t feel as if me saying anything will make you stop to listen. I’ve seen you do this many times to others. I’ve been around the block a time or two on these forums… and yes, I’ve seen what you say- therefore I believe it would be a moot point to even engage in a discussion with you.

The mere fact that you are trying to make an attempt to compare what Muslims do to US soldiers and then try to say we created this hatred shows me that there are straws being grasped… um, a bit of US history. The country is only, what, 250 years old, maybe? 231 since the signing of the Dec of Independence. Compared to when Islam was created in the 7th century. They hated anything Western WELL before the US was formed and now they just want to any reason to try to bring the US (and any other Western country) down.

 

[pro_universal]

Pro, like I said… you assume so much on matters in which you know nothing. I’m not going to get into a debate with you because I don’t feel as if me saying anything will make you stop to listen. I’ve seen you do this many times to others. I’ve been around the block a time or two on these forums… and yes, I’ve seen what you say- therefore I believe it would be a moot point to even engage in a discussion with you.

Well, between the two of us, you’re the only one who has typed out what he thinks the other is thinking. So I’m confused as to why you start out with “you assume so much…”…what exaclty am I assuming here? And how is it different from you assuming what’s in my mind?

Compared to when Islam was created in the 7th century. They hated anything Western WELL before the US was formed and now they just want to any reason to try to bring the US (and any other Western country) down.

Okay, do you have any evidence of this at all? I think maybe you’re just confused. When was the last war between the West and Islam???

 

[Montalban]

Don’t you think it makes more sense to believe that these US backed criminals are more responsible for anger towards the US than anything else?

Do you think it’s possible that Moslems can take responsibility for their own actions or are they only capable of reacting to what others do?