can we have a discussion with Muslims without getting angry

[hamba2han]

A funny thing occured to me. Have you ever noticed that the only reason most of the Islamic states (Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran, and others) have moved from the 15th century to the present is because the West came in and helped them.

Speaking of 15th century Muslims, here is something even funnier:

**WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Magnificently sophisticated geometric patterns in medieval Islamic architecture indicate their designers achieved a mathematical breakthrough 500 years earlier than Western scholars, scientists said on Thursday.

By the 15th century, decorative tile patterns on these masterpieces of Islamic architecture reached such complexity that a small number boasted what seem to be “quasicrystalline” designs, Harvard University’s Peter Lu and Princeton University’s Paul Steinhardt wrote in the journal Science.

Only in the 1970s did British mathematician and cosmologist Roger Penrose become the first to describe these geometric designs in the West. Quasicrystalline patterns comprise a set of interlocking units whose pattern never repeats, even when extended infinitely in all directions, and possess a special form of symmetry.

“Oh, it’s absolutely stunning,” Lu said in an interview. “They made tilings that reflect mathematics that were so sophisticated that we didn’t figure it out until the last 20 or 30 years.”**

The full article can be read here:

news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070223/sc_nm/architecture_patterns_dc

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

Speaking of 15th century Muslims, here is something even funnier:

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Magnificently sophisticated geometric patterns in medieval Islamic architecture indicate their designers achieved a mathematical breakthrough 500 years earlier than Western scholars, scientists said on Thursday.

By the 15th century, decorative tile patterns on these masterpieces of Islamic architecture reached such complexity that a small number boasted what seem to be “quasicrystalline” designs, Harvard University’s Peter Lu and Princeton University’s Paul Steinhardt wrote in the journal Science.

Only in the 1970s did British mathematician and cosmologist Roger Penrose become the first to describe these geometric designs in the West. Quasicrystalline patterns comprise a set of interlocking units whose pattern never repeats, even when extended infinitely in all directions, and possess a special form of symmetry.

"Oh, it’s absolutely stunning," Lu said in an interview. "They made tilings that reflect mathematics that were so sophisticated that we didn’t figure it out until the last 20 or 30 years."

The full article can be read here:

news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070223/sc_nm/architecture_patterns_dc

Both West & East can learn from each other. Arabs do have some great architecture I will give them that. I have always admired Arabic architecture.

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

Oddly enough, one could reasonably argue that there were very little Christian apologetics or Biblical exegesis (at least as those terms are understood today) before Islam came along. Up until that point, Christianity was the dominant religion in that part of the world and there were few single religions that could cut into Christianity’s market share.

When Islam came along it forced Christians to have to understand their own faith in a more systematic way. This was necessary because there were very good Islamic scholars who were beginning to suck the oxygen out of the debate and put Christians on the defensive in the marketplace of ideas.

Many would argue that Islam was the single most important catalyst in causing Christians to articulate exactly what their faith is about in ways that would eventually be familiar and commonplace to us.

Actually, we fought the pre-Islamic doctrine which existed a few hundred centuries after Christ’s ressurection called Arianism in the Council of Nicea. Muhammad copied Arian “Christianity”, Marcionism and Gnosticism and put it all into a new religion called Islam which teaches those three basic heresies I mention above.

 

[deb1]

Oddly enough, one could reasonably argue that there were very little Christian apologetics or Biblical exegesis (at least as those terms are understood today) before Islam came along. Up until that point, Christianity was the dominant religion in that part of the world and there were few single religions that could cut into Christianity’s market share.

When Islam came along it forced Christians to have to understand their own faith in a more systematic way. This was necessary because there were very good Islamic scholars who were beginning to suck the oxygen out of the debate and put Christians on the defensive in the marketplace of ideas.

Many would argue that Islam was the single most important catalyst in causing Christians to articulate exactly what their faith is about in ways that would eventually be familiar and commonplace to us.

This is more of a question then anything else. Wouldn’t the pagans that existed at Christianity’s beginnings be a source of apologetics and theological growth? Christians had to use reason to convert them after all.

 

[hamba2han]

Both West & East can learn from each other. Arabs do have some great architecture I will give them that. I have always admired Arabic architecture.

It is not just Arabic architecture.

The particular shrine cited in the article is located in Isfahan, Iran which would make it Persian architecture as well.

It is therefore best to term it Islamic architecture.

 

[a_priori]

This is more of a question then anything else. Wouldn’t the pagans that existed at Christianity’s beginnings be a source of apologetics and theological growth? Christians had to use reason to convert them after all.

The Church did have to confront the pagans in this regard also.

The following is recorded in Acts:

"Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said: "Men of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious. For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO AN UNKNOWN GOD. Now what you worship as something unknown I am going to proclaim to you.

“The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. ‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’” (Acts 17:22-29)

I think the main difference is that compared to the “pagans” in those early years, Islamic thought was a couple of clicks up on the intellectual spectrum. Islam possessed a formidible scholarship that, if unchallenged, had the potential to diminish the Christian message at that time.

As we know, this is good because Christianity is truth itself and when it was broken open and presented to an increasingly thinking world, it stood firm.

 

[a_priori]

Actually, we fought the pre-Islamic doctrine which existed a few hundred centuries after Christ’s ressurection called Arianism in the Council of Nicea. Muhammad copied Arian “Christianity”, Marcionism and Gnosticism and put it all into a new religion called Islam which teaches those three basic heresies I mention above.

Nothing comes out of a vacuum and I agree that the Church has been putting out doctrinal brush fires since the beginning. As we know, Islam eventually got a little more traction than most.

 

[hosemonkey]

It is not just Arabic architecture.

The particular shrine cited in the article is located in Isfahan, Iran which would make it Persian architecture as well.

It is therefore best to term it Islamic architecture.

So what we have is a pack of backward murderers who were good at math. Why has Islam descended into chaos and fanaticism? Do they truly blame it on the West or is the rot within? Does a false religion and a false prophet have anything to do with it?

 

[tamccrackine]

Well, between the two of us, you’re the only one who has typed out what he thinks the other is thinking. So I’m confused as to why you start out with “you assume so much…”…what exaclty am I assuming here? And how is it different from you assuming what’s in my mind?

You’re argumentative to a fault, Pro. Sit back and actually READ what you are writing. Everything is ALWAYS “not the Muslim’s fault.” In EVERYTHING you write! Why? Why can’t you just accept the black and white that is being presented?

I’m not assuming anything. I’m writing very clearly what I think of your stance because I’VE READ WHAT YOU WRITE! So while you would like to assume what I know/think, I actually KNOW your stance! The only thing you know of what I think is that my husband has been in combat in Iraq and has actually seen what everyone here is talking about yet you are making a vast attempt to romanticize it all and say it’s our fault that Muslims hate us.

Okay, do you have any evidence of this at all? I think maybe you’re just confused. When was the last war between the West and Islam???

Buddy, I’m not confused as to when the U.S. was started. Doesn’t take a rocket scientist to know that one… And Islam has been at war with the west for centuries. Again, doesn’t take a genius to figure that one out. Pick up a history book and you’ll see it. (That’s not to be snarky either, it’s a statement of fact.)

Like I said, I’m not going to get into an argument with you Pro. I’ve seen your side and if this is the best you can offer… forget it.

Oh… to the wonderful person that used the pronoun “he” to identify me… I’m actually a “she”

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

It is not just Arabic architecture.

The particular shrine cited in the article is located in Isfahan, Iran which would make it Persian architecture as well.

It is therefore best to term it Islamic architecture.

A better term is Eastern architecture, since a lot of what the Arabs and Persians learned was from Greek and Phonecian culture.

In the 1500s the West was struggling with the Black Plague and that eventually bore the Renaissance. At the time the Turks (Ottoman Empire) was vastly growing, only because Europe was ravaged with this Plague called the Black Death. Without checks & balances, there’s always a period in history when one culture will be up and the other will be down.

 

[pro_universal]

Heard of the Armenian Holocaust? Heard of Grand Mufti Amin al-Husayni?

Yes, I’ve heard of both. It is a fact which you can find in any source if you like, that the Armenian holocaust happened in the name of removing Islamic government from Turkey. The people who did that banned religious clothing, tried to forbid praying in Arabic, and dismantled all religious authority in Turkey.

So to call that a “Muslim holocaust” is simply absurd. It was precisely the opposite: A holocaust committed by people who wanted to remove Islam from their society.

Ever wonder why in Egypt the native population is being persecuted by the Arabs? Arabs aren’t even native to Egypt! Copts are the Egyptian natives.

The “native population” in Egypt is 20 percent. What’s the “native population” of America? Do you think the difference in cultures between the two might have something to do with that?

How’d the Moslems get ahold of Christian lands in Palestine?

With the help of Jews and Christians.

Certainly wasn’t through barterring and treaties. I know we didn’t gain the lands in Palestine through just means either, but we’re not talking about Christians here… I’m just pointing out the double standards which exist when referring to Islamic terrorism now.

Well, we lost Palestine because of our injustice, and Christians fought against the Romans in that war too. So no, you need not have a “double standard” to explain the war.

Look here at the Palestinian Neo-Nazis inspried by the Grand Mufti Amin al-Husayni.

This has to be the most absurd claim that I regularly see.

“Because the Hizbullah Shia (ie, NOT Amin al Husayni’s religion) raise a hand in salutes and military parades, therefore, they must be like Nazis.”

Do you honestly not see how faulty that logic is? If I found you an old picture of American kids doing the original flag salute, would you say “oh yeah…nazi Americans”!?

FYI–Those aren’t Palestinians in the pictures.

 

[pro_universal]

Barbary War, the Battle of Lepanto. Recently, 911and other bombings.

Okay, by what fathomable definition could the Barbary war and the Battle of Lepanto be “terrorism”?

Is every war terrorism?

 

[exoflare]

A better term is Eastern architecture, since a lot of what the Arabs and Persians learned was from Greek and Phonecian culture.

Yeah that’s the first thing I was going to say before I saw your post. LMAO @ “Islamic architecture” All the so-called ‘advances’ made by Islam at that time were really just the latest innovations that existed at that time for whatever culture they came along and took over at that moment. When they ran out of adjacent societies to ransack and leech off of these ‘advances’ came to a screeching halt.

 

[Montalban]

Heard of the Nazi Holocaust i.e. the real Holocaust?..

Let me fill you in on something because it’s obvious you just don’t get it. Pro_universal asked for an example of ‘terror’ committed by Moslems prior to 1967.

I gave him such an example. Another poster gave another example. That is the end. The thing has been proven.

It is, in that respect irrelevant about the Nazis. He asked for terrorism practiced prior to 1967 and he got it. This knee-jerk response is typical of Isalmic apologists. When one thing is being talked about, bring up another thing.

However let’s just look at your post of irrelevance… first you can’t even make up your mind if they really did do it…

Or so what many historians say did really happen.

So your irrelevant example is one you’re not even willing to admit happened anyway.

Oops, I forgot, Hitler and the Nazis weren’t real Christians, were they?

There’s no connection between Nazism and Christian teaching.

Well then, by the same token, the people who committed the “Armenian Holocaust” weren’t real Muslims, were they?

If you want to argue the Turks weren’t Moslems, that’s up to you, but although Attaturk was a secularist he was continuing a long-running trend in Islam of dealing with troublesome minorities

You were saying something about “double standards”, weren’t you?

You need therefore to do a few things

a) realise that the interjection of the Nazis is a red-herring. It’s not relevant to the challenge pro_universal made
b) you need to decide if you want to use this example in any further discussion and whether you actually believe it happened, because it’s against Islamic thought to acknowledge that the holocaust happened - so you aren’t even willing to do this.
c) you need to show evidence between Christian teaching and Nazi practice (I’ve exampled Moslem teaching and terrorist practice on this thread)

 

[Montalban]

Okay, by what fathomable definition could the Barbary war and the Battle of Lepanto be “terrorism”?

Is every war terrorism?

The Islamic pirates of northern Africa lived like the ‘mob’ (of gangster-movie fame). They extorted money from Christian nations in return for ‘protection’ from themselves; else they’d raid those nations, and/or attack their shipping.

Even Ireland was a target of these pirates
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sack_of_Baltimore

But what’s really telling, pro_universal is you don’t acknowledge the example I gave to your challenge

 

[Montalban]

Oddly enough, one could reasonably argue that there were very little Christian apologetics or Biblical exegesis (at least as those terms are understood today) before Islam came along. Up until that point, Christianity was the dominant religion in that part of the world and there were few single religions that could cut into Christianity’s market share.

When Islam came along it forced Christians to have to understand their own faith in a more systematic way. This was necessary because there were very good Islamic scholars who were beginning to suck the oxygen out of the debate and put Christians on the defensive in the marketplace of ideas.

Many would argue that Islam was the single most important catalyst in causing Christians to articulate exactly what their faith is about in ways that would eventually be familiar and commonplace to us.

That’s simply false. Justin Martyr and Tertullian wrote in defence of Christianity against paganism. They were not alone, Origen (himself leaning towards the heretical) wrote in an effort to bring Christianity and Aristolean thought into sync. Then there were divisions within Christianity that prompted the writ of defence, such as by Cyril of Alexandria against Nestorianism. Augustine wrote many tracts of defence

Almost all of the Seven Ecumenical Councils that defined the existing faith were held before the advent of Islam.

The Cappadocian Fathers lived before Islam

Even after Islam, people like Gregory Palamas wrote in defence of Orthodox teachings against the accusations of westerners.

This catholic site
newadvent.org/cathen/01618a.htm
certainly admits Islam was a danger to Christianity, but there are apologists before Islam, and many after who had no direct response to Islam, but to other challenges.

 

[Montalban]

Both West & East can learn from each other. Arabs do have some great architecture I will give them that. I have always admired Arabic architecture.

Much of what is now considered ‘Arabic’ art and science itself came from others; Jews, Hindus, Assyrians et al

One writer on the net was quite angered that the Assyrians weren’t counted for anything…

ninevehsoft.com/fiorina.htm

 

[a_priori]

That’s simply false. Justin Martyr and Tertullian wrote in defence of Christianity against paganism. They were not alone, Origen (himself leaning towards the heretical) wrote in an effort to bring Christianity and Aristolean thought into sync. Then there were divisions within Christianity that prompted the writ of defence, such as by Cyril of Alexandria against Nestorianism. Augustine wrote many tracts of defence

Almost all of the Seven Ecumenical Councils that defined the existing faith were held before the advent of Islam.

The Cappadocian Fathers lived before Islam

Even after Islam, people like Gregory Palamas wrote in defence of Orthodox teachings against the accusations of westerners.

This catholic site
newadvent.org/cathen/01618a.htm
certainly admits Islam was a danger to Christianity, but there are apologists before Islam, and many after who had no direct response to Islam, but to other challenges.

If I gave the impression there were no apologists before Islam I didn’t mean to.

It is a matter of degree. In the 9th, 10th and 11th centuries Islam emerged as a scholastic monolith that became a force to be reckoned with. This made it necessary for Christians to get their act together and engage their ideas. By doing this Christians built up their apologetic muscles.

 

[Montalban]

If I gave the impression there were no apologists before Islam I didn’t mean to.

It is a matter of degree. In the 9th, 10th and 11th centuries Islam emerged as a scholastic monolith that became a force to be reckoned with. This made it necessary for Christians to get their act together and engage their ideas. By doing this Christians built up their apologetic muscles.

But the point is since the beginning of Chrisitanity Christians have been called to defend their faith.

*If *Christians did ‘flex their muscles’ with Islam, they had already been doing so prior to, and have done since.

I think you’re trying to suggest that Christianity owes a debt to Islam, even if it’s from a reaction to Islam.

 

[Montalban]

Well, we lost Palestine because of our injustice, and Christians fought against the Romans in that war too. So no, you need not have a “double standard” to explain the war.

Who is ‘we’? You have been, since encountering you, an America, an Australian resident, a non-Moslem, and now, a Palestinian/Palestinian Moslem/Palestinian other