can we have a discussion with Muslims without getting angry

[Mr.Bee]

I don’t believe we are arrogant. I don’t see them apologizing for treating women as second class citizens, killing ‘infidels’, or any other of the myriad of crimes committed in the name of ‘Allah’.

You have to stand for something, or you will fall for anything.

Just my opinion

heathernoel,
I am not excusing the acts Muslims are committing, nor am I saying that we are responsible for this mess. But I am suggesting that we as Christians take a hard look at ourselves in order to conquer this conflict.

IMO; Muslims need to stop the irrational violence in the name of God. And we Christians need to walk-the-walk or else our arguement is useless against them. We disapprove of the way they treat women, but is the way we treat Brittney Spears and Paris Hilton any better? (nice Christian girls) Either way its humiliation.

Lets use another example: Take the “Honorable” Al Gore, a symbol of American ideology, a former powerful politician, environmentalist and Oscar winner, telling everybody how they… we should live our lives and save the planet, but he himself leaves the biggest “carbon footprint” of them all, and relieves himself of responsibility by simply buying "green credits’ … Thats how the rest of the world views us, we can buy our way out of responsibility.

Frankly, I’m embarrassed for us.

 

[guanophore]

I have a couple of questions for everybody,

To the Christians / Americans:
Why do you think Radical Islam hates our guts so much? Is it beacuse they’re jealous of us? Or is it because we act like arrogant jerks?

I really am not sure, and I am sure I have a lot to learn about it. I think they are jealous, yes. But I think it is a very complex problem. I think poverty,and early training in hate, lack of education, ignorance, etc. I think that we do sometimes act like arrogant jerks, and that doesn’t help. It is not the source of the problem (which I think is the ideology/theology) but it doesn’t help. Historically, there is a long history of Christian intolerance to these people. Having just spent several weeks studying the crusades, I am thinking that we can,and should, do better.

 

[guanophore]

I will not apologize for ‘the way we act’. It’s not ethnocentric, IMHO, to be wary of Muslims because of all the reasons already laid out. I had reason to mistrust them before 9/11. Now, I have 3k more.

I don’t believe we are arrogant. I don’t see them apologizing for treating women as second class citizens, killing ‘infidels’, or any other of the myriad of crimes committed in the name of ‘Allah’.

You have to stand for something, or you will fall for anything.

Just my opinion

I am wary of terrorists of all kinds, domestic as well as foreign. I think this is only common sense. I don’t think I want to use this venue to try to get into the issue of whether or not we are arrogant. I will agree to disagree with you. I think I have my hands full just working with my own personal arrogance. I don’t think we are to wait for people to apologize, though, before forgiving them. I don’t think that was one of the criteria. “Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do” is the standard. I am not saying we should not stand for something. Of course it is appropriate to resist evil. How we do that is critical.

 

[guanophore]

heathernoel,
I am not excusing the acts Muslims are committing, nor am I saying that we are responsible for this mess. But I am suggesting that we as Christians take a hard look at ourselves in order to conquer this conflict.

IMO; Muslims need to stop the irrational violence in the name of God. And we Christians need to walk-the-walk or else our arguement is useless against them. We disapprove of the way they treat women, but is the way we treat Brittney Spears and Paris Hilton any better? (nice Christian girls) Either way its humiliation.

Lets use another example: Take the “Honorable” Al Gore, a symbol of American ideology, a former powerful politician, environmentalist and Oscar winner, telling everybody how they… we should live our lives and save the planet, but he himself leaves the biggest “carbon footprint” of them all, and relieves himself of responsibility by simply buying "green credits’ … Thats how the rest of the world views us, we can buy our way out of responsibility.

I could not say it better!

Frankly, I’m embarrassed for us.

 

[Montalban]

I guess you are saying that since Meedo is happy with me for speaking out against hostility, then I have a weak stance?

Pretty much so, for the language of Moslems on these threads is one of indignation just by non-Moslems questioning Islam. Then you come along saying why can’t we Christians all be nicer people

 

[Montalban]

I am wary of terrorists of all kinds, domestic as well as foreign.

Indeed, however with Islam you have an ideology that promotes the use of terror as a weapon.

I think this is only common sense.

If only it were common!

I don’t think I want to use this venue to try to get into the issue of whether or not we are arrogant.

What’s this ‘we’ business? You don’t speak for me. How arrogant!

I will agree to disagree with you. I think I have my hands full just working with my own personal arrogance. I don’t think we are to wait for people to apologize, though, before forgiving them. I don’t think that was one of the criteria. “Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do” is the standard. I am not saying we should not stand for something. Of course it is appropriate to resist evil. How we do that is critical

God offers forgiveness to all, but they have to partake in this willingly, by seeking that forgiveness. It would be odd for us to seek to forgive people who don’t seek forgiveness and I’ve yet to see a Moslem here acknowledge the evils done by their faith

 

[guanophore]

What’s this ‘we’ business? You don’t speak for me. How arrogant!

Well, let’s see, we could be all the countries that decided to side with Bush to invade Iraq in an illegal war. We could be all the Christians who have killed Muslims because they are Muslims. I guess “we” could also be anyone who thinks that the anger of a man can accomplish the righteousness of God?

God offers forgiveness to all, but they have to partake in this willingly, by seeking that forgiveness. It would be odd for us to seek to forgive people who don’t seek forgiveness and I’ve yet to see a Moslem here acknowledge the evils done by their faith

I don’t suggest that forgiveness be sought for them because they deserve it. I think if all of us got what we deserved, we would all burn in the pit. Although it is fitting to hope and work for them to see that evils are done by their faith, I think we has as much, or more of a responsibility to make sure no evils are don e by us through our faith.

 

[Montalban]

Well, let’s see, we could be all the countries that decided to side with Bush to invade Iraq in an illegal war. We could be all the Christians who have killed Muslims because they are Muslims. I guess “we” could also be anyone who thinks that the anger of a man can accomplish the righteousness of God?

I am with you as far as ‘illegal war’. Although anyone who’s read my posts will know I do not like Islam, I am against my government (Australia - staunch ally of the US) on the invasion of Iraq.

I don’t suggest that forgiveness be sought for them because they deserve it. I think if all of us got what we deserved, we would all burn in the pit. Although it is fitting to hope and work for them to see that evils are done by their faith, I think we has as much, or more of a responsibility to make sure no evils are don e by us through our faith.

I think all people who seek forgiveness will get it - from God. However Moslems don’t seek forgiveness from God - but from another being called Al-lah (if they even seek forgiveness at all, and there’s doubt over that too). Islam promotes violence.

For me, forgiving a Moslem would be like forgiving a practicing Nazi.

 

[heathernoel]

I will disagree with you about the illegal war business. As you have said, we will agree to disagree. But quite frankly, I see the war on Terror, IE Afghanistan and Iraq, as a long time coming. Liberating countries from the oppression of Muslims should be a global concern. Instead, it takes the righteousness of one man’s ANGER to do it. Yes, he’s angry about 9/11, And so are most of the men and women fighting it.

My relatives’ deaths there have not been in vain.

Sorry to thread jack.

 

[guanophore]

I think all people who seek forgiveness will get it - from God. However Moslems don’t seek forgiveness from God - but from another being called Al-lah (if they even seek forgiveness at all, and there’s doubt over that too). Islam promotes violence.

For me, forgiving a Moslem would be like forgiving a practicing Nazi.

I agree that all who seek forgiveness from God will get it, but that is not what I am talking about in relation to the title of this thread. I am also not disputing that Islam promotes violence. I can see your point that forgiving a practicing Nazi would be like forgiving a practicing Nazi. Every watch the movie “The Hiding Place”? What a great testimony to the power of forgiving practincing Nazi’s! Those that crucified Our Lord were unrepentant. So was the Turk who attempted to assasinate John Paul II. Each stretched out a forgiving heart to the undeserving, to present an example of how we are to behave. Because “while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us”. Each time we pray the Lord’s prayer, we affirm that we expect God to forgive us “as we forgive others that have trespassed against us”. It doesn’t specify that they will repent first! Daily when I pray the Rosary, I pray “bring all souls to heaven, especially those in most need of Thy mercy”. I can think of few others more in need of God’s mercy than these suicidal, destructive, and hate filled fanatics.

 

[Ella]

I agree that all who seek forgiveness from God will get it, but that is not what I am talking about in relation to the title of this thread. I am also not disputing that Islam promotes violence. I can see your point that forgiving a practicing Nazi would be like forgiving a practicing Nazi. Every watch the movie “The Hiding Place”? What a great testimony to the power of forgiving practincing Nazi’s! Those that crucified Our Lord were unrepentant. So was the Turk who attempted to assasinate John Paul II. Each stretched out a forgiving heart to the undeserving, to present an example of how we are to behave. Because “while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us”. Each time we pray the Lord’s prayer, we affirm that we expect God to forgive us “as we forgive others that have trespassed against us”. It doesn’t specify that they will repent first! Daily when I pray the Rosary, I pray “bring all souls to heaven, especially those in most need of Thy mercy”. I can think of few others more in need of God’s mercy than these suicidal, destructive, and hate filled fanatics.

That is a great post. Lots to think about.
More prayers are needed. I am a big fan of the Divine Mercy Chaplet.

 

[El_Paulo]

I liked your last post, guanophore.

Why do we think there is a difference between anyone who sins? - Muslims are no different from you, I or anyone when it comes to sinning - we share a common humanity, we also share a common propensity to sin. Yes, those things that are happening in our world at present are detestable and cannot be excused - what we Christians are called to do is not to condemn people (in case by doing so, we condemn ourselves), but to set a higher standard even if that standard is not reciprocated by others. We are called to do this because it is RIGHT, not because it might get ‘results’.

 

[GregoryPalamas]

For your reading pleasure

freewebs.com/drjackwheeler/index.htm

 

[guanophore]

Why do we think there is a difference between anyone who sins? - Muslims are no different from you, I or anyone when it comes to sinning - we share a common humanity, we also share a common propensity to sin.

I think it is arrogance. Like the pharisee that was praying in the temple. “Lord, thank you that I am not like that poor sinner over there!”

Yes, those things that are happening in our world at present are detestable and cannot be excused - what we Christians are called to do is not to condemn people (in case by doing so, we condemn ourselves), but to set a higher standard even if that standard is not reciprocated by others. We are called to do this because it is RIGHT, not because it might get ‘results’.

I was listening to the Mass on EWTN this morning, and Father was talking about this very topic! He was saying that we have an obligation to pray for those who despitefully use us and are mean to us. Interestingly, he also made the point that we should speak up against injustice, and pointed out that Christ confronted his abuser, when slapped upon the face. “Why do you strike me? What sin have I committed?” Of course, confrontation may not stop the abuse, but it is an opportunity to speak out against the wrongdoing.

 

[Montalban]

Koran 3.151
We will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve, because they set up with Allah that for which He has sent down no authority, and their abode is the fire, and evil is the abode of the unjust.

I agree that all who seek forgiveness from God will get it, but that is not what I am talking about in relation to the title of this thread. I am also not disputing that Islam promotes violence.

There’s been plenty of thread where we’ve gone over the evidence.

Muhammed lead armies, he called people to war. He laughed when people were assassinated. He over-saw the slaughter of 600 PoWs.

 

[guanophore]

Koran 3.151
We will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve, because they set up with Allah that for which He has sent down no authority, and their abode is the fire, and evil is the abode of the unjust.

There’s been plenty of thread where we’ve gone over the evidence.

Muhammed lead armies, he called people to war. He laughed when people were assassinated. He over-saw the slaughter of 600 PoWs.

Ok, I never disputed your point that Islam promotes violence (toward non-adherants). However, in relation to the title of the thread, what is your point? Are you really saying that, since they are hostile to us, it is ok to get hostile in return?

 

[Montalban]

Ok, I never disputed your point that Islam promotes violence (toward non-adherents). However, in relation to the title of the thread, what is your point? Are you really saying that, since they are hostile to us, it is ok to get hostile in return?

They’re not just hostile to non-Moslems. Women don’t get a good deal either.

However one can be critical of Islam.

None here are advocating violence towards Moslems.

We’re discussing Islam on an internet discussion forum. It’s very un-confrontational*. However some people seem to think that even that’s too hostile for Christians to be involved in. I don’t see what everyone’s being so precious about! I find it near incredible that people on this forum (not necessarily on this thread) go about telling people we can’t even discuss these things because it might enrage or upset Moslems.

It’s part of ‘free-speech’ and it’s being done in a frank and reasonable manner.

It’s part of the cloak of deceit of Islam that even such open discussion brings criticism. Islam spreads because of the self-deception that any criticism is ‘insult’ and many westerners fall for this deception.

*-you’re not compelled to be here. You can enter anonymously, etc.

 

[Booklover]

I really am not sure, and I am sure I have a lot to learn about it. I think they are jealous, yes. But I think it is a very complex problem. I think poverty,and early training in hate, lack of education, ignorance, etc. I think that we do sometimes act like arrogant jerks, and that doesn’t help. It is not the source of the problem (which I think is the ideology/theology) but it doesn’t help. Historically, there is a long history of Christian intolerance to these people. Having just spent several weeks studying the crusades, I am thinking that we can,and should, do better.

Oh, please, not the Crusades, again! I can imagine that you’ve been learning that the Christians were all bad and the Muslims all good! Nonsense! The Crusades were a response to Muslim aggression.

For a different perspective, read “The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam and the Crusades”, by Robert Spencer.

amazon.com/Politically-Incorrect-Guide-Islam-Crusades/dp/0895260131/ref=sr_1_1/002-8741514-9798405?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1173112880&sr=1-1

 

[Sheeniac]

We have Muslims in both militarys, by the way. SO, they must feel as patriotic as Christian British and Americans.

I am a bit sensitive over this issue as I lost a dad to Vietnamn, I have a BIL in Iraq. My sister will return to Iraq in May and my hubby is in Afghanistan right now.

I wonder if the only ones we can truly dialog with are MINOs.

 

[guanophore]

Oh, please, not the Crusades, again! I can imagine that you’ve been learning that the Christians were all bad and the Muslims all good! Nonsense! The Crusades were a response to Muslim aggression.

For a different perspective, read “The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam and the Crusades”, by Robert Spencer.

amazon.com/Politically-Incorrect-Guide-Islam-Crusades/dp/0895260131/ref=sr_1_1/002-8741514-9798405?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1173112880&sr=1-1

No, I have learned that history is largely in the eye of the beholder, so I have been reading a number of perspectives. I don’t think the Muslims or the Catholics are “all good”. My issue was, let’s not pretend we are holier than they are!