Can we have a frank discussion about music in Mass?

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I personally love Gregorian chant. My parish choir sings Gregorian chant on Saturday vigil and various gregorian and polyphonic hymns and chants(none of those flighty 70s guitar ballads). The music ministry changes the Sunday Mass setting depending on the time of year. Currently, the Sanctus, Mysterei Fidei, Amen, and Agnus Dei are set to Richard Proulx’s “Community Mass”. The music sounds better than the title.
 
I said “primarily”
primarily |prīˈme(ə)rəlē|
adverb
for the most part; mainly: around 80 percent of personal computers are used primarily for word processing.
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Must we sing to offer ourselves in sacrifice? If I am wrong in that regard, I stand corrected. Remember also that prayer in the time of Moses - within the tent of meeting - was silence.

If you do not see or agree that secular culture has drifted into the Church, I simply cannot help.
 
I sing, but often it is not heartfelt. There are a few songs I like, but when I sing the
Gloria I am looking around and seeing if there are others who seem as uncomfortable as I am singing it. Some people really seem to get into it and others seem to want to just get it over with and I know the Gloria is an important
part of the Mass and it shouldn’t feel like a chore singing it.
 
I like no music also or traditional with psalms chanted…abhor guitar strumming bands in front of church…this issue never goes away…lol
 
7_Sorrows said:
Gloria I am looking around and seeing if there are others who seem as uncomfortable as I am singing it. Some people really seem to get into it and others seem to want to just get it over with and I know the Gloria is an important
part of the Mass and it shouldn’t feel like a chore singing it.
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I LOVE singing the Gloria. I look at the crucifix and at the stained glass windows and get tears in my eyes. I even sing t when I mow the lawn.
 
But…but…the word “psalm” means “song.”

King David and the other psalmists wrote them to be sung.

🤔
 
May I ask who sang the polyphonic pieces? Were they a high school choir trained by a good teacher? Or laypeople in your parish who have a musical background or training?

Polyphony is difficult unless the singers are skilled at reading music. (I have met people who have the ability to learn polyphonic pieces by ear–if the accompanist or conductor sings/plays the part, the singer can learn it on the spot–it’s really fascinating to meet people like this!).

Please don’t think that I’m denouncing polyphonic music–I’m just saying that in my experience (I’m an accompanist in demand in my area), it is unusual to meet groups that can sing polyphony, and even more unlikely that these groups would be present in a Catholic Mass.

Many of the groups are amateur secular or semi-professional secular groups that sing for a fee or that sing as part of a “season” by various musical organizations or schools in the area. Some of the high schools and most of the colleges/universities have a “Chamber Choir”. Usually this choir hold auditions and selects only skilled singers who already read music well and have developed good singing skills.

But it’s unusual for these groups to sing at churches, especially Catholic churches. Sunday morning is usually a day off for musical groups of all types, with the exception of choirs like Ora Labora’s chant group which offers its services to parishes in their area–good for them! That’s what’s needed if Catholic churches are to hear more chant and polyphony–singing groups that meet during the week and learn, under the direction of a trained director, the ancient music of the Church.

We do have such a group in our city–a group of men and boys who sing well and learn chant and polyphony (e.g., Palestrina), but they only sing at the Latin Mass parish, not at other Catholic churches. I think they are afraid that they would not be welcome, but I think that if they offered their services, they would find that many parishes, and possibly even Protestant churches, would open their doors with gladness.

That being said, I truly believe that most Catholics who attend the OF Mass prefer a variety of music choices at their Masses.

In our parish, we have one “no music” Mass, three"traditional" Masses that feature hymns and organ or piano (depends on who plays–there are only a few organists in the parish and I’m one of them!), one “folk” Mass that includes guitars, drums, tambourine, and keyboards, and one “quiet” Mass that features a marvelous young man who plays beautiful contemporary piano and a singer who sings these pieces with great skill Think “Celtic Women” style contemporary–very beautiful music. This Mass is well-attended in our parish, and I enjoy it myself–it’s so beautiful.

There’s certainly room for a chanted Mass. But like I said, those who want chant in their Mass need to step it up and facilitate the formation of a group with a knowledgeable director and start learning and perfecting the various ancient Church music.

In short–it’s not an easy thing in 2018 to have chant in the Mass. BAD chant, yes. But the kind of chant that many of you are thinking of…not easy.
 
OK–so the purpose of music in the Liturgy isn’t to please the congregants, but to glorify God.

So if the parishioners are pleased with Gregorian chant, it should not be in the Mass?

That’s what I hear you saying–that the only music offered in the Mass should be music that no human is pleased by.

I’m not trying to be capricious here, but semper_catholicus, I’ve heard this so many times from people who think that chant should be the only Mass music. Fortunately for them, they just happen to LIKE chant and/or be pleased by it. It enhances their personal worship experience. For all of us who find chant grating, that’s just too bad, so sad.

BUT…by the logic that music should not be done to please the people, then chant should not be done to please people, either. It should not matter one iota what the people prefer. The music is done solely to please God. If the music pleases people, then it is “suspect” and “man-centered,” not God-centered. Right? That’s what I’m hearing here–that any music people LIKE is not appropriate for Mass.

Really?

The various church documents (one quoted above) make it crystal clear that although Gregorian chant is the “best” music to accompany the Mass, OTHER musical styles are permissible. The documents also make it clear that music is not just to honor God, but to edify the people.
 
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I’m not saying that the music can’t please or edify the congregation as a secondary effect, but it is not an end in itself.

What you say about the Vatican docs on music is true, but you left out that Gregorian Chant is to be given PRIDE OF PLACE in the Liturgy.
 
This is the Gloria we have been singing on Sunday solemn Masses during this period after Pentecost


And this is the Kyrie.

 
Many daily Masses do not have any music at all, and some churches also offer a “quiet” Sunday Mass without music.

We do not always have to sing the Gloria. It is frequently just recited. I think singing it is seen as an additional gesture of praise.

I like most music generally but I don’t need it at every Mass I go to.
 
RandomAlias said:
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Gorgias:
Christ and the apostles sang hymns.
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I wonder if they sang in polyphony. 🤔
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If you were there, listening to the literal voice of God singing hymns, I’m betting you wouldn’t critique the singing or style. Just sayin’… 😉
 
We are fortunate to have highly skilled musicians at our parish that do sing elsewhere including at a local university and in local choral groups as far as I know. I’m not privy to all the information regarding who sings when and where. I am not involved with the choir and they are up in the choir loft, so I can’t see them either. I do see announcements in the bulletin regarding music lessons and chant workshops. If I could carry a tune in a bucket I’d get involved.

All I can tell you is that we have polyphony about once every month and Gregorian chant (schola) at least once a month. Some of our weekday masses (especially The Latin mass) also have chant, etc. Otherwise, we have a cantor or choir. Our parish is on the traditional side. We either chant propers or sing traditional hymns/choral music. No pop church music. We are not the only parish in our diocese who have this kind of music available on a regular basis.

EDIT: According to our parish website: we have a men’s and a women’s schola, a chorale, cantors, and a couple parish choirs. The parish choir does not require music reading ability, but the others do. Hope that helps.
 
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That is good. In the 10 years I have been
Catholic, there has been only once or twice I heard a version that was pleasing
and sounded good to me.
 
First off, “psalm” doesn’t mean “song.” In Greek, it means, “a striking” and refers to plucked musical instruments - specifically, the psalterion.

The Hebrew name for the Book of Psalms, “Tehillim,” does mean “praises, songs, songs of praise.” Each individual section of the Tehillim is called a “mizmor,” which means “melody, tune.” It is particularly associated with songs sung with a harp, as with David in the Bible. (Hence the Greek name for the Psalms.)

Second, there is a place for the silent Mass. It is not as desirable, but it’s more desirable in many ways than a messed up musical Mass.

Now, where to start?

We sing as an offering to God of prayer and praise, a physical act which resembles incense rising to heaven, and which imitates the angels and saints in Heaven. God specifically commanded that the Levites sing to Him, and it has always been the practice of normal Jewish and Christian people from the earliest times to sing praise to God, to beg His help in song, and to thank Him that way also.

As with a lot of other Church practices, in our own time we find confused teaching by members of the Church about music, singing, the responsibilities of the congregation, and so on. Frankly, most of that stuff ceases to be confusing if you go back to the older documents and practices. But not entirely, because there have always been a lot of situational decisions about music, and you have to understand the situation to understand the local decisions.
 
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  1. No layperson can be obliged or forced to sing. If anybody tries to shame you into singing, you have every right to tell him off.
  2. If all things are equal (good music that is sacred and timeless in character, good theology of lyrics, congregation that can read music and sing harmony parts without preparation, etc.), then of course it is preferable for the congregation to handle all music that is not sung by the priest and/or deacon. But since most people work for a living, it has always been the custom of Christians to have a choir sing as the voice of the people and the saints and angels in attendance, just as it was the God-given custom of the Temple to have a Levite choir.
  3. The primary duty of a choir is to sing the propers – those parts of the Mass which are only for that Sunday or weekday, and which constitute part of the readings – and to sing the Ordinary of the Mass (ie, the unchanging “Mass parts” like the Gloria, Holy Holy, etc.)
  4. The importance of music to the readings and prayers of the Mass is usually masked in the US and other countries, because hymns are substituted for the many Psalm propers. (That would be the Introit psalm and antiphon at the beginning of Mass, the Offertory psalm and antiphon – optional in the Ordinary Form, and the Communion psalm and antiphon.) Some music directors try to program hymns with the same “message,” but very few; so basically we are missing huge chunks of what the Church intended Mass to be. We treat the “four-hymn sandwich” as if it was always the way, when it’s actually just the last and least option of many, and the proper Psalms are supposed to be the default.
  5. The Church has always taught that the form of music used at Mass must be sacred, and hence set-apart in character from all other music. Like Mass and church buildings, sacred music is supposed to point us toward God’s dwelling in Heaven. There are many styles of sacred music, but they are all different in form as well as purpose from the secular music of their composers’ days.
  6. In the US at this time, the music we use is almost always devotional rather than sacred, and human-centered rather than human-offered and God-centered. Some of it is very nice or even beautiful, and would be very appropriate outside Mass. But very little of it is actually intended to unite us to the worship of the saints and angels, with Jesus, offering His sacrifice on Calvary to the Father.
  7. Most parish musicians mean well. It is not their fault that they were taught bad information, and it usually wasn’t their teachers’ fault, either. But that doesn’t mean there is no problem, or that we should let things stay worse than they should be. It’s very painful at first to correct bad info and undesirable practices, but it makes a big difference in worship to those parishes that manage it.
  8. The Vatican II document “Musicam Sacram” commanded that all Latin Rite Catholic parishes teach the faithful how to sing the Mass parts in Latin, and make the responses in Latin, and that all kids should be taught to sing. Music should be taught in all schools and seminaries, and Gregorian chant should be particularly promoted. Mostly ignored…
 
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Did you mean to reply to me? I didn’t say anything about psalms or silent masses…
 
po18guy said:
Must we sing to offer ourselves in sacrifice? If I am wrong in that regard, I stand corrected. Remember also that prayer in the time of Moses - within the tent of meeting - was silence.

If you do not see or agree that secular culture has drifted into the Church, I simply cannot help.
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St. Paul says sing. St. Augustine says sing.

More to the point, this is the Mass and the General Instructions of the Roman Missals says, “Sing!”

If the music is not good, try to get the music changed. Like every holy thing, it ought to be not just excellent but in every way appropriate for holy use. In analogy, crystal is a splendid and beautiful material, but it is not suitable for a chalice. The material for chalices must be both precious and durable. Likewise, music for the Mass. Only good music should be used, but not everything that qualifies as well-constructed music is suitable for Mass.

Don’t try to eradicate music from the Mass; it belongs there.
 
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