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Caesar
Guest
Take a listen to Archbishop Sheen on Hell (Real Audio) - ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/resolve.asp?rafile=iq_4082.ra
He tells it straight without blinking an eye.
He tells it straight without blinking an eye.
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Flopfoot
Guest
To take the middle of the road here -
On the one hand, there has to be a theoretical possibility that no people are in hell.
Because if there was not such a theoretic possibility, it means there must be someone who had to go to hell with no free will in the matter. This is Calvinist predestination and of course untrue. If we all have free will and we are all able to find the grace of God should we earnestly seek it then there is no theoretical reason why there must be people in hell.
However, in terms of reality, there is no possibility that hell is empty.
One of the main reasons is that Jesus told us so. And He came after many had lived and died, so even if He was speaking purely about the past, He knew that some people who lived and died during the ‘BC’ had lived evil lives and had gone to hell.
And even if He was also saying that people in the future would end up in Hell, I guess that since He is God, He knows the future and the bad decisions that people are going to choose.
In theory, we all can freely choose to do good not evil. In reality, God knows that some are not going to freely choose to do good.
On the one hand, there has to be a theoretical possibility that no people are in hell.
Because if there was not such a theoretic possibility, it means there must be someone who had to go to hell with no free will in the matter. This is Calvinist predestination and of course untrue. If we all have free will and we are all able to find the grace of God should we earnestly seek it then there is no theoretical reason why there must be people in hell.
However, in terms of reality, there is no possibility that hell is empty.
One of the main reasons is that Jesus told us so. And He came after many had lived and died, so even if He was speaking purely about the past, He knew that some people who lived and died during the ‘BC’ had lived evil lives and had gone to hell.
And even if He was also saying that people in the future would end up in Hell, I guess that since He is God, He knows the future and the bad decisions that people are going to choose.
In theory, we all can freely choose to do good not evil. In reality, God knows that some are not going to freely choose to do good.
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Hellisreal
Guest
ALL people who go to HELL do it with FREE will, they want to curse God for an eternity. Listen to caesars link and I will get Peter Kreefts “The problem of evil” and his take on HELL.
No one is going that does not want to be there.
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Flopfoot
Guest
I’m not sure if you are agreeing with my post, disagreeing with it, or just making an additional comment about it?
I know that people end up in hell because of the choices they make. Whether they actually ‘want’ to be there is a different question, and I don’t think they do (someone who chooses to steal does not want to be in jail), but it is a little off topic for this thread.
I know that people end up in hell because of the choices they make. Whether they actually ‘want’ to be there is a different question, and I don’t think they do (someone who chooses to steal does not want to be in jail), but it is a little off topic for this thread.
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Hellisreal
Guest
Its just another theological opinion. Like yours is.
Not off topic, because we are talking about if there will be souls in Hell.
I am not really in disagreement with you, as we have the flexibility to hold differing views on this.
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orgel_maestro
Guest
I thought that after Vatican II it was decided that it is possible to be saved even if a person is not in full communion with the Holy Mother Church, so the teaching of extra ecclesiam nulla salus was no longer taught. Even though I consider myself a traditional catholic, I love the old liturgy, but we still need to abide by and acknowledge changes made by V2 and that it was legit. We may not like the Novus Ordo mass, or rather we may prefer the Tridentine rite, but we never the less have to aknoweldge its legitimacy. I truly believe that there is salvation outside of the church, but limited and on rare occurences, the Mother Church is there to guide us. Like whether or not Martin Luther King, Jr. a baptist minister, I’m almost positive he’s in heaven. Ghandi? Maybe, I’m not God, so I dont know. But then, I’ve heard catechism teachers being as liberal as everyone in the end is forgiven and even Hitler, despite all his wrong doings, is probably in Heaven because God is so merciful. Well, I beleive he is merciful, but I also believe he is just. But, ya, bottom line is its possible just like the CCC says.
The Church indeed allows us to hope that nobody is in hell. That’s a far, far cry from teaching universal salvation. Hoping for the salvation of one or more is part of charity. Nobody knows the state of anyone’s soul at the moment of death, which gives us room for that hope.
That said, the Church also recognizes the Sacred Scripture clearly identifies at least two people who are almost certainly in hell, although she stops short of declaring that for sure. That’s for same reason: nobody knows the state of their souls in their last moments. Who knows what happened in the last instant of their lives?
So hoping for the salvation of all is not contrary to the Church at all. Yet declaring that all will be saved is also contrary to Church teaching.
The Monsignor said nothing contrary to the Magisterium. All he did was express a hope that is within reason, but said nothing to the effect that “Hell is empty.”
We can hope that all men at their last moments experienced contrition, even though it’s not likely.
I can easily say, “I sure hope hell is empty. But it’s not bloody likely.” It’s the same sentiment whenever we pray at the Rosary “lead all souls to heaven, especially those who most need your mercy.” The hope is the same, even though it’s a foregone conclusion that many more will definitely be damned.
Such hope, however does not extend to the fallen angels and the devil.
EWTN rocks, by the way.
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CatholicNick
Guest
Lets get one thing straight. Dogmas do not Change or cease being taught. Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus is an Infallible Dogma of the Church, which all Christians are bound to believe.
There are exceptions to the rule however, like you mentioned. Invincible Ignorance being one of them. But we must remember, Invincible ignorance is just that. It is rare, and id say more rare than most modern Catholics think. And coupled with this ignorance someone must also be in a state of Grace to enter Heaven. Now… if its hard enough for Catholics WITH the Sacraments to stay in a state of Grace, how hard is it for Protestants, let alone Heathens who dont even accept Christ as Lord and God?
Somebody in Mortal Sin CANNOT enter heaven. Period.
And yes, it is possible for protestants and non-Christians to fall into a state of Mortal sin.
Many things I read on these forums tend to universal salvation. Many many things give the impression one does not even have to Convert to the True Faith in order to be saved…
Vatican II changed NONE of this. Dogmas do not change and Vatican II was not a Dogmatic Council.
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trentonzero
Guest
Don’t we pray for an empty hell (even while not believing in universal salvation) when we pray in the Rosary:
“Oh my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of Hell, ** lead all souls to Heaven **, especially those most in need of thy mercy. Amen.”
I don’t think an improper or foolish idea (hoping and praying for the presence of all souls in Heaven) would be in the Holy Rosary.
However, gotta agree with the people explaining that this is definately NOT universal salvation.
“Oh my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of Hell, ** lead all souls to Heaven **, especially those most in need of thy mercy. Amen.”
I don’t think an improper or foolish idea (hoping and praying for the presence of all souls in Heaven) would be in the Holy Rosary.
However, gotta agree with the people explaining that this is definately NOT universal salvation.
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palmas85
Guest
Martin Luther King, while a great man, did fall into mortal sin and apparently did so quite often
if the FBI tapes of him are any indication. He did enjoy the company of women other than his wife. That is a big no no and does constitute mortal sin. The fact that he was a Baptist minister would really have no bearing… Gandhi, on the other hand had the following to say about Christ“What does Jesus mean to me ? To me, He was one of the greatest teachers, humanity has ever had. To his believers, he was God’s only begotten Son.”
You will note that Gandhi in this statement merely identifies Christ as a great teacher whom TO HIS FOLLOWERS was the only begotten son of God. That to me shows implicit rejection with full knowledge, of the divinity of Christ
Neither one of these men could claim to be ignorant of the teachings of the Catholic church or even of Christianity in general. As to where they are now, I certainly hope Purgatory rather than Hell, but I would doubt that either one has made it into heaven.
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Windmill
Guest
It really comes down to this: don’t live your life as if there wasn’t a Hell with actual souls of the damned in it. Have hope that God will give you the grace to overcome sin and live a holy life - God’s mercy is now - so accept it now. Don’t assume it will be there after a life of spiritual laziness.
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bilop
Guest
St Matthew Ch 25
While we pray for all souls to go to Heaven, that is all repentent souls. We don’t pray for unrepentent mortal sinners to go to Heaven, we pray for them to repent.
We have to want unrepentent mortal sinners to go to Hell because that is what God wants, that’s the way it has to be. To wish otherwise is to wish contrary to the will of God, which can’t be good
God Bless
It sure sounds like plenty of people are going to Hell.
While we pray for all souls to go to Heaven, that is all repentent souls. We don’t pray for unrepentent mortal sinners to go to Heaven, we pray for them to repent.
We have to want unrepentent mortal sinners to go to Hell because that is what God wants, that’s the way it has to be. To wish otherwise is to wish contrary to the will of God, which can’t be good
God Bless
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Joe_Kelley
Guest
Some freely choose to go there.
’I would rather go to hell than take orders on how to vote from the Cardinal.’–Australian Lawmaker
’I would rather go to hell than take orders on how to vote from the Cardinal.’–Australian Lawmaker
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Malcolm_McLean
Guest
Gandhi and Martin Luther King were both great men, both regarded by their followers as examples to follow, but as you say, both had serious flaws. That is what Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus means. It is not a vague threat, with nothing to back it up, to hold over non-believers. It is pertinent observation of their condition in the here and now.Martin Luther King, while a great man, did fall into mortal sin and apparently did so quite often
“What does Jesus mean to me ? To me, He was one of the greatest teachers, humanity has ever had. To his believers, he was God’s only begotten Son.”
You will note that Gandhi in this statement merely identifies Christ as a great teacher whom TO HIS FOLLOWERS was the only begotten son of God. That to me shows implicit rejection with full knowledge, of the divinity of Christ
Neither one of these men could claim to be ignorant of the teachings of the Catholic church or even of Christianity in general. As to where they are now, I certainly hope Purgatory rather than Hell, but I would doubt that either one has made it into heaven.
Catholics also have flaws, of course, but the Church has the instruments of salvation.
However it is to be hoped that Gandhi and Martin Luther King will somehow be saved, and that is the case for every named individual. As for “all of humanity”, love of “all humanity” is best left to hippies on drug trips.
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MikeDunphy
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Hellisreal
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Why would anyone even listen to him at all if they would not ever have to face the music for their lives? It would be pointless to listen to him. I agree with you.
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Greg27
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I’ve read Hans urs Von Balthasar’s writings on this subject carefully, and I don’t see any heterodoxy in them. Balthasar does not say unequivocally all are saved, nor does he say hell is not a real possibility for each individual. What Balthasar did argue at some length (adopting ideas from several patristic and medievals including Nicholas of Cusa) that Christ descended truely and completely to the lowest point of hell, which is complete abandonment by the Father of the Son. Balthasar then argued because of this (his logic is not always entirely clear at this point) that Jesus encountered an empty hell. His point seems to be the power of the resurrection event is sometimes forgotten by theologians with mediocre minds (which is true) and that God’s salvific will is not just limited to only a few but all of humanity.
Of course the theological mystery is when and if God’s mercy ends and where human freedom and its consequences continue to eternity. I tend to sympathise with the Orthodox on this point, who emphasize it is very easy to logically emphasize God’s mercy as a property which needs to balance and counteract his mercy, so there is no contradiction in divine truth. But God also transcends our understanding, so perhaps there are ways God’s mercy extends to those we may see as lost in ways beyond our understanding. We should not try to bind the infinite God to our limited conceptions of him, nor should we speculate about what we cannot really know (which clearly a restoration would involve the human mind reaching to realms beyond its created ken, and would enter a fairly futile desert of contradictory theological and metaphysical speculation past the limits of reasonable faith and reason).
Of course the theological mystery is when and if God’s mercy ends and where human freedom and its consequences continue to eternity. I tend to sympathise with the Orthodox on this point, who emphasize it is very easy to logically emphasize God’s mercy as a property which needs to balance and counteract his mercy, so there is no contradiction in divine truth. But God also transcends our understanding, so perhaps there are ways God’s mercy extends to those we may see as lost in ways beyond our understanding. We should not try to bind the infinite God to our limited conceptions of him, nor should we speculate about what we cannot really know (which clearly a restoration would involve the human mind reaching to realms beyond its created ken, and would enter a fairly futile desert of contradictory theological and metaphysical speculation past the limits of reasonable faith and reason).
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Em_in_FL
Guest
(sorry I don’t normally post on the Traditional board… so hello!
)I just wanted to say I agree with this post…
I love this prayer and was thinking about it the entire time why reading the thread…
Having HOPE for an empty Hell is a good thing!.. it’s not saying the same thing as universal salvation…
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thomass
Guest
Doesn’t this question of salvation also invoke the Church’s teaching regarding a “Baptism of desire?” Please, correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe this invloves the FACT that Jesus’ salvation is eternal (not limited to time or space) and that his Truth is available to all who seek it. I may ruffle feathers here, but being Catholic is NOT required for salvation when one’s life is a search for Truth and Love. This teaching acknowledges the souls of those who, for temporal, geographical or cultural reasons were never capable of hearing the Church’s teaching, and therefore cannot be culpable in rejecting them but who spend their lives in the sincerest search for Truth and Love. By our knowledge of the Sacraments We are most culpable in our daily rejections of Christ’s teaching. I really believe too, that this discussion would be informed if it were to focus on the concept I stated above regarding the eternal nature of Jesus’ Salvific power and which was mentioned by Greg27 that God’s eternal mercy is beyond our ability to comprehend. I mean seriously and ernestly, Heaven and Hell are eternities and ETERNITY IS NOT A PLACE OR A TIME.
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bilop
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I have not read Van Balthasar, but can not agree with this conclusion.
Jesus descended to Limbo Patrum, which is a part of Hell, but not the Hell of torment. If Jesus was to descend to the Hell of torment it wouldn’t be Hell anymore; the Hell of torment being defined by the absence of God for all eternity. No one in this Hell can ever see God, once he is condemned.
Therefore it is a logical impossibility for Jesus to go there.
I appreciate the charity of those wishing salvation for all, but it is not consistent with Catholic dogma or the Bible. Frankly, I think we will all be suprised on Judgement Day by who goes where. Many who were viewed as great humanitarians will be with the goats, and many who are surly miosanthropes will be with the sheeps. I would not be suprised at all to see many of our modern secular “saints” like Gandhi or MLK headed in the wrong direction. I don’t wish this on them; I hope they recognized Christ’s truth before the end, but I wouldn’t be suprised.
God Bless
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