Can we reconcile God's love with hell?

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powerofk said:
Honestly, as I’ve written before, even were the gates of Hell left open (as they very well might be), those in Hell would never leave, as for them, being in the presence of God is more detestable than being in everlasting fire and torture from their sins. Seriously - they’d rather be in everlasting fire and torture than to be in the presence of God. And so, since they want to be forever mired in their sins worshipping themselves (which is the true reason for their torture), God allows them to.
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No offense intended, but this is nonsense. :rolleyes:
 
What we know is that Heaven is being with God; for some people that is eternal bliss. For deeply ingrained, unrepentant sinners - thinking mainly of spiritual pride - that would be a miserable place or state to go to.

Rather than forcing severe sinners into a place they wouldn’t want to be - Heaven - God lets them go somewhere else - Hell. What believers would call Heaven, if they love God, non-repentant sinners would call Hell, since it means being with God, and with other people. Evil persons feel they themselves are God, so for a false God to be dragged into the presence of the real God would be cruel indeed. You might argue the compassionate thing would be for God to simply leave them alone. And that is what does happen.

For lovers of God, it would be a miserable Hell to be separated from God. For the others, I bet there are as many Hells as there are persons who choose to go there. Each Hell has its own throne. What would be miserable Hell for* us* (I hope I am not being presumptuous here when I include myself in the “us”) is the only place the others would be satisfied. For us, that would be a firey destination indeed. But for them, their doors are locked on the inside. Hell is a tragedy, but not necessarily painful, to them. It would be painful to us. It might be that everyone goes to a Heaven; either to the Heaven of God, or a heaven where they themselves feel they are god.

Suggestion: “The Screwtape Letters” and “The Great Divorce”, both by C. S. Lewis.
 
Techno2000 said:
An Unpublished Manuscript on Purgatory

I can tell you about the different degrees of Purgatory because I have passed through them. In the great Purgatory there are several stages. In the lowest and most painful, like a temporary hell, are the sinners who have committed terrible crimes during life and whose death surprised them in that state. It was almost a miracle that they were saved, and often by the prayers of holy parents or other pious persons. Sometimes they did not even have time to confess their sins and the world thought them lost, but God, whose mercy is infinite, gave them at the moment of death the contrition necessary for their salvation on account of one or more good actions which they performed during life. For such souls, Purgatory is terrible. It is a real hell with this difference, that in hell they curse God, whereas we bless Him and thank Him for having saved us.

catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=6253
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This is how I always thought purgatory to be. Those in purgatory do not remain there, correct? Since there is no time outside of this life, I’m not sure how a duration period in purgatory would be devised, but I suppose I don’t need to know, because God does.

I need to look into the "levels " of purgatory.
 
commenter said:
What we know is that Heaven is being with God; for some people that is eternal bliss. For deeply ingrained, unrepentant sinners - thinking mainly of spiritual pride - that would be a miserable place or state to go to.

Rather than forcing severe sinners into a place they wouldn’t want to be - Heaven - God lets them go somewhere else - Hell. What believers would call Heaven, if they love God, non-repentant sinners would call Hell, since it means being with God, and with other people. Evil persons feel they themselves are God, so for a false God to be dragged into the presence of the real God would be cruel indeed. You might argue the compassionate thing would be for God to simply leave them alone. And that is what does happen.

For lovers of God, it would be a miserable Hell to be separated from God. For the others, I bet there are as many Hells as there are persons who choose to go there. Each Hell has its own throne. What would be miserable Hell for* us* (I hope I am not being presumptuous here when I include myself in the “us”) is the only place the others would be satisfied. For us, that would be a firey destination indeed. But for them, their doors are locked on the inside. Hell is a tragedy, but not necessarily painful, to them. It would be painful to us. It might be that everyone goes to a Heaven; either to the Heaven of God, or a heaven where they themselves feel they are god.

Suggestion: “The Screwtape Letters” and “The Great Divorce”, both by C. S. Lewis.
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Purgatory is part of the equation as well.
 
DaddyGirl said:
(Snip)

Personally, I think that if there is indeed a heaven and a hell, then everyone is in heaven.
If actually shown that they could go to a great, happy place or one of burning fire and pitchforks…everyone will choose the nice, happy, place on the soft clouds.
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If that were the actual equation then I would agree with you - but there is more to it than that.

Lucifer was in heaven - but he refused to submit himself to God… As a result he was expelled.

So let’s assume for a moment that it works as you express it above.
Everyone is shown and given the choice. They choose heaven. Then when they get there they choose not to submit themselves to God. After all - that is what they did on earth too.
Now - because they refuse to submit to God (a condition for being in heaven) they must be expelled, just as Lucifer and his followers were.

So the question we are asked in this life is…Will you submit to God? Our answer here determines our destination.

Peace
James
 
it is unrealistic to believe that anyone given the choice between heaven and hell will always choose heaven.

every time we are confronted by the temptation to sin we are, in reality, choosing hell over heaven. we know sin separates us from God, yet time and again we sin, choosing to separate ourselves from God.

why would this be different at the moments of our deaths? if over and over again, as we live in this physical world, we choose separation from God, why is it so hard to believe that our choices will be similar at the moment of death?
 
eddie_too said:
it is unrealistic to believe that anyone given the choice between heaven and hell will always choose heaven.

every time we are confronted by the temptation to sin we are, in reality, choosing hell over heaven. we know sin separates us from God, yet time and again we sin, choosing to separate ourselves from God.

why would this be different at the moments of our deaths? if over and over again, as we live in this physical world, we choose separation from God, why is it so hard to believe that our choices will be similar at the moment of death?
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I think there are some. Some are are rebelious and do not know what they are getitng into perhaps:whistle:. Some who just simply do not believe.

I just vaguely remembered a video i saw on youtube a few months ago. There was a Catholic woman ( sure she was Catholic) saying that she saw what hell was like and she mentioned a man who was there because he refused God when possibly,God had actually spoken to him before he died…sorry, i need to find it again to be sure.
 
I have often thought last words of a person could be, “I would rather go to Hell than to admit that I was wrong. I would rather go to Hell that to accept God’s love. I would rather go to Hell than to forgive my neighbor. I would rather go to Hell than to Heaven.”

God will honor the person’s choice. Plain and simple, Hell is the absence of God. There are those who do not want to be in the presence of God. They prefer the absence of God. This is the choice Satan made.

We have a life time to make up our minds. We make the final choice.

God is merciful. His mercy is there for all who will reach out and receive it. But, if we don’t want His mercy, He does not force it upon us.
 
HelenRose said:
I have often thought last words of a person could be, “I would rather go to Hell than to admit that I was wrong. I would rather go to Hell that to accept God’s love. I would rather go to Hell than to forgive my neighbor. I would rather go to Hell than to Heaven.”

God will honor the person’s choice. Plain and simple, Hell is the absence of God. There are those who do not want to be in the presence of God. They prefer the absence of God. This is the choice Satan made.

We have a life time to make up our minds. We make the final choice.

God is merciful. His mercy is there for all who will reach out and receive it. But, if we don’t want His mercy, He does not force it upon us.
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Can He ask us before we die?
 
HelenRose said:
I have often thought last words of a person could be, “I would rather go to Hell than to admit that I was wrong. I would rather go to Hell that to accept God’s love. I would rather go to Hell than to forgive my neighbor. I would rather go to Hell than to Heaven.”

God will honor the person’s choice. Plain and simple, Hell is the absence of God. There are those who do not want to be in the presence of God. They prefer the absence of God. This is the choice Satan made.

We have a life time to make up our minds. We make the final choice.

God is merciful. His mercy is there for all who will reach out and receive it. But, if we don’t want His mercy, He does not force it upon us.
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What happened to an ancient Aztec for example when he died? He knew nothing of our God, nor did many. Even further, did God reveal Himself to ancient civilizations so that they could make a proper decision? What was the choice for them?
 
Jubilarian said:
What happened to an ancient Aztec for example when he died? He knew nothing of our God, nor did many. Even further, did God reveal Himself to ancient civilizations so that they could make a proper decision? What was the choice for them?
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I’ve often wondered that too.
 
God does ask us before we die. We are asked to choose heaven or hell every day and this is true whether one is “religious” or not.

The question is asked about people who never heard of God. A common enough question and a fair one. We believe that God judges rightly based on a given person’s situation and time in history.

At it’s most fundamental level, we are asked to choose between love and hate. All of the Law and prophets are reduced to two commandments…to Love (Agape) God and Love neighbor as ourselves.
Jesus left us with a single command, that we Love one another as He Loves us.
Jesus tells us that we will be judged by our actions and how those actions relate to Love (Read Mt 25).
Paul tells us that Love is the greatest (and most essential) of the virtues.
St John tells us that to know love is to know God for God IS Love.

Therefore we can conclude that the basis of judgement - and the choice that we make between heaven and hell - is dictated by our daily choice between Agape Love and hate; between that which builds up and that which tears down; between that creates and that which destroys; between that which is light and that which is dark; good and evil.

Where you heart is, so to is your treasure…

Peace
James
 
Sorry, i should have been more specific.

I mean right at the point, or near death, does He ask us verbally, with a voice we can hear?

I’d like to have heard Him at least once in my lifetime to be sure. Many were made “sure” when Jesus was resurrected, but not all.
 
powerofk said:
…even were the gates of Hell left open (as they very well might be), those in Hell would never leave, as for them, being in the presence of God is more detestable than being in everlasting fire and torture from their sins. Seriously - they’d rather be in everlasting fire and torture than to be in the presence of God.
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This is commonly put forward as an argument, but is insupportable in my opinion. Are you seriously suggesting that people in Hell - in misery - would not leave once they had experienced the pain and become aware of the error of their sins? I believe they would repent with greater sincerity than anyone. An all-forgiving God would welcome them with open arms.

Nobody “chooses hell” when they commit a sin. They act impulsively, desperately, lustfully, greedily, recklessly. Can you seriously imagine someone thinking, “I’ll steal this guy’s wallet to get some money to feed myself, and hope I go to hell”? Really?

We all know people who have led sinful lives, then died without setting foot in a confessional for many years. Under Catholic theology, there’s no point even praying for them. The requiem mass is entirely wasted, because everyone knows they are in hell.
We might as well throw in the towel, right now, and admit that most people are going to hell.
If those prayers are NOT wasted, and there is the slightest chance that God will bestow his grace on them, then that completely negates the idea of “choosing hell” and “going to hell forever.”
Every time I read the statement that “Only God knows who is in hell” I think: well, shut up trying to address it from your tiny, human perspective and pretending that you know everything about it.

And another point: sins confessed one second before death can be forgiven, but God will not forgive those sins a second later.
Ridiculous. That’s not a god: that’s an petty, clock-watching bureaucrat - rather like the over-zealous teacher who puts you on detention for being a minute late for class.

I think we should stop using platitudes and feel-good statements.

I expect my views to be shouted down. Right about now.
 
simonmic said:
Can He ask us before we die?
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He calls to us every moment of our lives. He calls us where we are at and who we are. A single gesture of self giving to another human being is the beginning of our answer to His call for love.
Hell is turning away from His love. It is the choice we make when we cease loving and choose to hate. Hell is saying, “To hell with it. I don’t give a Damn.” Heaven is saying, “Show me your way Lord. I am lost and need your help.”

Say that prayer then show kindness to those around you. You will begin to understand.
 
JRKH said:
God does ask us before we die. We are asked to choose heaven or hell every day and this is true whether one is “religious” or not.

The question is asked about people who never heard of God. A common enough question and a fair one. We believe that God judges rightly based on a given person’s situation and time in history.

At it’s most fundamental level, we are asked to choose between love and hate. All of the Law and prophets are reduced to two commandments…to Love (Agape) God and Love neighbor as ourselves.
Jesus left us with a single command, that we Love one another as He Loves us.
Jesus tells us that we will be judged by our actions and how those actions relate to Love (Read Mt 25).
Paul tells us that Love is the greatest (and most essential) of the virtues.
St John tells us that to know love is to know God for God IS Love.

Therefore we can conclude that the basis of judgement - and the choice that we make between heaven and hell - is dictated by our daily choice between Agape Love and hate; between that which builds up and that which tears down; between that creates and that which destroys; between that which is light and that which is dark; good and evil.

Where you heart is, so to is your treasure…

Peace
James
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I wonder how God dealt with ancient civilizations concerning matters such as this.
 
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