Can we separate Baptism and faith?

[Sleepdoc]

You meet a man in the grocery checkout. You speak to Him about

God and your Catholic beliefs. It’s a short conversation driven by the Holy Spirit but a powerful one.

He tells you he lived as an atheist his whole life but finds the conversation curious. On your way out of the store, there is a commotion in the street. Your new friend was struck by a car and is dying. A Baptist is there barking these words at Him. “ accept you are a sinner and that Jesus died for your sins “

As you arrive, the man embraces you, looks you in the eye and says

I want to live in heaven with your God.

He then loses consciousness and

Just before he dies you break out some water and Baptize him.

The Baptist looks at you with shock.

Question: can you enter heaven by

Baptism without faith, faith without Baptism? The question is theological.

 

[po18guy]

But he did have faith! He expressed it in desiring to live in God’s Kingdom. His is a “type” of the faith of Dismas, the “good thief” at Calvary. Even better, he wanted to be baptized and was baptized. Let others think what they will.

From a Catholic standpoint, the “believer’s baptism” is a man-made idea. Those who hold to the “believer’s baptism” cannot tel you what happens to the souls of children who have died without baptism. Is God really such a cruel taskmaster that He would allow us to struggle in uncertainty regarding the children whom He loves for their innocence?

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I’m with po18guy, I’m not seeing that the dying person lacked faith.

Even if you hadn’t been there to baptize him on the spot, he might well have qualified for “baptism of desire” by wanting to be with God in Heaven.

 

[awesomecatholic]

He did have faith if he told you he wanted to go to heaven. The Catholic church teaches that if a person dies before being baptized but desired it,salvation is possible.

 

[Sleepdoc]

what is enough? what is desire?

I desire peace in my death?

I desire heaven?

I desire to be with God?

I know Jesus is God and I am a sinner?

I have repented.

I have submitted all of my mind, heart, will and strength to loving God?

The thief on the cross did very little

He just recognized that Jesus was innocent and he was guilty

He asked God to remember Him when He came into his Kingdom

For that single act of the heart, he stole heaven

But the rich young man, that is a different story

Master, What must I do to inherit the kingdom of heaven,

I have followed the commandments from my youth,

He was obedient to God of course as a Jew

Christ says to him, Go and sell what you have and come and follow me

Here Jesus asks the man for all his will and mind and heart.

Do they end up in the same place in heaven?

Does one guy spend more time in purgatory ?

 

[Dan_Defender]

what is enough? what is desire?

Baptism of desire is the implicit desire for baptism of water by a person who makes an act of perfect love of God, based on faith and with a sincere sorrow for one’s sins. Such was the case in the Acts of the Apostles, when Peter encountered pagans who, moved by the grace of the Holy Spirit, proclaimed the greatness of God.
Peter himself then said, ‘Could anyone refuse the water of baptism to these people, now they have received the Holy Spirit?’ - Acts 10:46-47

 

[ZMystiCat]

According to CCC 1236:

The proclamation of the Word of God enlightens the candidates and the assembly with the revealed truth and elicits the response of faith, which is inseparable from Baptism.

The catechism also refers to baptism as the “sacrament of faith” in both CCC 1236 and CCC 1253.

So I would say that it is a pretty definitive “no” on them being separable.

 

[Sleepdoc]

That’s pretty amazing. A bit fuzzy though.

What about an infant who is baptized?
Faith is an act of the will, does it not require thinking?

What about a guy baptized as a baby but
Never looks to God.

I have a son with Downs Syndrome
Fortunately he has a very strong faith but
What if he could never think after being baptized?

Are we not charged with the duty of accepting
Our baptismal vows as we mature in faith?

This of course is a no brainer for the adults coming
Into the church on the Easter Vigil in two weeks. It’s faith married to baptism temporally. During a Mass.

I’m looking for a better argument that they are
One in the same.
circumcision broght a Jew into the covenant in the OT
but baptism replaced it in the New Testament

Isn’t Baptism the cleansing of the stain of original sin
The indwelling of the spirit and the beginning of
A life in grace. Grace affords us a look at our sinful selves, the recognition that a savior is needed and a drive for repentance which is fueled by love of God and leads To our purification and Holiness.

Seems like a continuum to me. A spectrum.
Faith in Jesus
Repentance
Accepting your baptismal vows
Holiness
Purification

All of them are asymptotic, never a point

Do you agree?

 

[Tis_Bearself]

The rich young man was in a different situation. It is generally understood that he was being called to a vocation and refused. That’s a special case.

Desiring to be close to God in some way is enough.

With all due respect, I think you’re very much overcomplicating/ overthinking man’s simple desire for God.

 

[ZMystiCat]

What about an infant who is baptized?

To quote Catholic Answers:

In the Old Testament, those born into Jewish households could be circumcised in anticipation of the Jewish faith in which they would be raised. Thus in the New Testament, those born in Christian households can be baptized in anticipation of the Christian faith in which they will be raised. The pattern is the same: If one is an adult, one must have faith before receiving the rite of membership; if one is a child too young to have faith, one may be given the rite of membership in the knowledge that one will be raised in the faith.

I’m looking for a better argument that they are
One in the same.

Saying that two things are inseparable is different than saying that they are the same. Which are really asking about?